PR: Dungey Injured

dboivin
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dboivin 6/9/2016 9:28am
6/9/2016 9:28am
dboivin wrote:
using atlas's logic, if this injury coulda been prevented with a neck brace. do all spine and neck injuries that happen with a brace.....can they be...
using atlas's logic, if this injury coulda been prevented with a neck brace. do all spine and neck injuries that happen with a brace.....can they be attributed to the brace?

the facts here are their are no facts. too many variables to legitimately claim either/or....i think it falls into snake oil category. that is why these neck brace threads go haywire. sales are more determined by emotion more than data. kinda like chronic conditions that have no fix but special elixir makers market to them anyways out of the patients desperation to fix the chronic condition.
AtlasBrace wrote:
Neck braces reduce forces to the neck (and head). Helmets reduce forces to the head. Both have data available to look at online, one just has...
Neck braces reduce forces to the neck (and head).

Helmets reduce forces to the head.

Both have data available to look at online, one just has less history. People have died wearing helmets but no one ever says "LOOK THAT GUY DIED, HELMETS ARE DANGEROUS!".

Bottom line is extreme sports are dangerous. We could race in giant plastic bubbles but people will still find a way to crash, and suffocate inside the bubble.

It's easy to poke a hole in virtually every single situation that exists... but that doesn't mean what we have doesn't do what it is intended to do, and just like helmets injuries will continue to happen.. the best we can do is try to reduce the severity of them as much as possible.
comparing a brace to a helmets track record...seriously?

i can put an egg in a special container and prove it prevented it from breaking. show me that with brace.
akillerwombat
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akillerwombat 6/9/2016 9:32am
6/9/2016 9:32am
dboivin wrote:
comparing a brace to a helmets track record...seriously? i can put an egg in a special container and prove it prevented it from breaking. show me...
comparing a brace to a helmets track record...seriously?

i can put an egg in a special container and prove it prevented it from breaking. show me that with brace.
Look how long it took for football, hockey, baseball, bike riding, skiing, snowboarding, etc to come around to the idea of helmets.
peelout
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peelout 6/9/2016 9:33am
6/9/2016 9:33am
Cygnus wrote:
Boy did this turn to shit. GuyB is right, most of the time when a thread reaches ten pages it's most likely Dumbgeon bound.
the thread turned to shit when Atlas decided to take the chance to scold Dungey for not wearing a brace filled with one hundred dollar bills, even though they begged him
AtlasBrace 6/9/2016 9:37am
6/9/2016 9:37am
You hit the nail on the head as to why these threads get out of control.

A helmet is an easy concept to understand. "It wraps around my head, has padding, this must be good". Easy to understand.

A neck brace is more complicated than that, and visually much more difficult to understand. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. To compare a test to your egg experiment:

Case a 70' triple with no suspension... now case it with suspension. Which do you prefer?

That is not much different than compressing a neck till it breaks. Now add suspension and a controlled limit to how far you can push that same neck. I would prefer the latter, everyday of the week.

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cslacker
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cslacker 6/9/2016 9:43am
6/9/2016 9:43am
AtlasBrace wrote:
Neck braces reduce forces to the neck (and head). Helmets reduce forces to the head. Both have data available to look at online, one just has...
Neck braces reduce forces to the neck (and head).

Helmets reduce forces to the head.

Both have data available to look at online, one just has less history. People have died wearing helmets but no one ever says "LOOK THAT GUY DIED, HELMETS ARE DANGEROUS!".

Bottom line is extreme sports are dangerous. We could race in giant plastic bubbles but people will still find a way to crash, and suffocate inside the bubble.

It's easy to poke a hole in virtually every single situation that exists... but that doesn't mean what we have doesn't do what it is intended to do, and just like helmets injuries will continue to happen.. the best we can do is try to reduce the severity of them as much as possible.
Leatt released data however their data released was merely on a pendulum test which even your site used to criticize as not reflecting real world accidents therefore it wasn't helpful. You haven't released any data at all yet you are telling us to research data... What data? The only thing available is opinion.

AtlasBrace 6/9/2016 9:45am
6/9/2016 9:45am
peelout wrote:
the thread turned to shit when Atlas decided to take the chance to scold Dungey for not wearing a brace filled with one hundred dollar bills...
the thread turned to shit when Atlas decided to take the chance to scold Dungey for not wearing a brace filled with one hundred dollar bills, even though they begged him
We didn't beg anyone, he was being thrown that opportunity from our competitor (not us), and he gave up on it.

No skin off our back... We had RV racing at the time and were focussed on that. Sure, we would love to see RD in our product and we would be terrible business people not to try and get Ryan Dungey to wear our product, especially now... how can you blame us for that?

We also were approached by Bobryshev, because he had a scary crash and injury, and wanted to make a change. He now wears our brace. RD isn't the focus here.... the focus is helping people.

We aren't scolding anyone, we just hate to see a guy get hurt. Same reason all you guys are bummed about it. The only difference is we wish he was still wearing a brace. Any brace.
AtlasBrace 6/9/2016 9:54am
6/9/2016 9:54am
cslacker wrote:
Leatt released data however their data released was merely on a pendulum test which even your site used to criticize as not reflecting real world accidents...
Leatt released data however their data released was merely on a pendulum test which even your site used to criticize as not reflecting real world accidents therefore it wasn't helpful. You haven't released any data at all yet you are telling us to research data... What data? The only thing available is opinion.

That was a long time ago, they have released much more than that. But the fact that you guys don't know that, shows that you guys don't truly care about the data, or even read it in its entirety.

Then when you do see the data you guys say its bias and discount it.

We are seemingly in a lose lose situation here, as there appears to be no pleasing everyone.
harvdog412
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harvdog412 6/9/2016 10:04am
6/9/2016 10:04am
First, bummed for Ryan, wishing him a speedy recovery and thankful he wasn't more seriously injured.

I was curious about the history/evolution of the motorcycle helmet and the HANS device. It seems it takes a death or two before people begin to take protection seriously. Also, a personal tragedy, similar to Leatt, triggers individuals to create these inventions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

https://edu.hstry.co/timeline/a-look-into-the-history-of-motorcycle-hel…

For those demanding more facts from neck brace manufacturers, it takes time, money and more injuries or death before neck braces will get to the level of helmets and HANS devices. I hope we never get to that point. I would also argue, that many people, despite scientific evidence, would still choose not to wear a neck brace.

For the time being, I'll accept my anecdotal evidence, broken C3 before neck braces were invented, wear a leatt now and I am convinced, as is my neurosurgeon, that the brace would have prevented my injury. I was lucky. I'll also accept the anecdotal evidence provided by Dr. Bodnar...

http://www.racerxvt.com/article/dr.-bodnar-examines-trey-canards-leatt-…

Atlas Brace, keep up the good fight!

The bigger question is, will Ryan wear one going forward.

Underdog999
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Underdog999 6/9/2016 10:04am
6/9/2016 10:04am
People who don't want to wear a neck brace aren't going to "believe" in it. Just like guys who ride on the street without helmets. They want to take the chance and be "free".

Mr. AtlasBrace, I think no amount of talking to them logically, or giving them facts, they still aren't going to understand because they don't want to.
cslacker
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cslacker 6/9/2016 10:08am
6/9/2016 10:08am
AtlasBrace wrote:
That was a long time ago, they have released much more than that. But the fact that you guys don't know that, shows that you guys...
That was a long time ago, they have released much more than that. But the fact that you guys don't know that, shows that you guys don't truly care about the data, or even read it in its entirety.

Then when you do see the data you guys say its bias and discount it.

We are seemingly in a lose lose situation here, as there appears to be no pleasing everyone.
Your company discounted the data! The only additional data they released that I was able to find was this wonderful infographic which is only available archived on other sites now. I'm guessing Leatt took it off their site for a reason... Finally they did release their "white paper" Which is where the pendulum testing info came from that once again, your company criticized as not reflecting real world crashes! If we are missing something please direct us to this wealth of data so that we can educate ourselves instead of just telling us to google it!



AtlasBrace 6/9/2016 10:12am
6/9/2016 10:12am
Underdog999 wrote:
People who don't want to wear a neck brace aren't going to "believe" in it. Just like guys who ride on the street without helmets. They...
People who don't want to wear a neck brace aren't going to "believe" in it. Just like guys who ride on the street without helmets. They want to take the chance and be "free".

Mr. AtlasBrace, I think no amount of talking to them logically, or giving them facts, they still aren't going to understand because they don't want to.
For sure. We know we will never convince those people.
NotCore
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NotCore 6/9/2016 10:13am
6/9/2016 10:13am
AtlasBrace wrote:
That was a long time ago, they have released much more than that. But the fact that you guys don't know that, shows that you guys...
That was a long time ago, they have released much more than that. But the fact that you guys don't know that, shows that you guys don't truly care about the data, or even read it in its entirety.

Then when you do see the data you guys say its bias and discount it.

We are seemingly in a lose lose situation here, as there appears to be no pleasing everyone.
You sure are doing a lot of lecturing for a company that relies on people to buy its products.

This is not a good business model, in case you didn't notice yet.
cslacker
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cslacker 6/9/2016 10:15am
6/9/2016 10:15am
Underdog999 wrote:
People who don't want to wear a neck brace aren't going to "believe" in it. Just like guys who ride on the street without helmets. They...
People who don't want to wear a neck brace aren't going to "believe" in it. Just like guys who ride on the street without helmets. They want to take the chance and be "free".

Mr. AtlasBrace, I think no amount of talking to them logically, or giving them facts, they still aren't going to understand because they don't want to.
Bullshit. There have been no "facts" given. If there were facts and evidence then Atlas could easily put this all to rest by posting some real data instead of this: http://www.atlasbrace.com/testing/
AtlasBrace 6/9/2016 10:16am
6/9/2016 10:16am
cslacker wrote:
Your company discounted the data! The only additional data they released that I was able to find was this wonderful infographic which is only available archived...
Your company discounted the data! The only additional data they released that I was able to find was this wonderful infographic which is only available archived on other sites now. I'm guessing Leatt took it off their site for a reason... Finally they did release their "white paper" Which is where the pendulum testing info came from that once again, your company criticized as not reflecting real world crashes! If we are missing something please direct us to this wealth of data so that we can educate ourselves instead of just telling us to google it!



We discounted that it accurately reflects a real world example of a crash. It isolates certain data by eliminating potential variables... and that works to create a chart as you posted, which is all good and fine. This is semi-relative for most neck braces.

This doesn't take into account the weight of a body slamming behind the head. Our concern was to see what happens in the most violent situation we could produce. It was already proven that it helped for less violent impacts, so we wanted to try the other end of the scale that was the most violent. We felt this was closer to real life.
Tradmark
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Tradmark 6/9/2016 10:17am
6/9/2016 10:17am
i guess its a bad business model to the "easily butt hurt crowd"
davbrucas
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davbrucas 6/9/2016 10:19am
6/9/2016 10:19am Edited Date/Time 6/9/2016 10:20am
akillerwombat wrote:
Vital in a nutshell... "I have no evidence and have done zero research to repute the claim that your device helps save lives... but you know...
Vital in a nutshell...

"I have no evidence and have done zero research to repute the claim that your device helps save lives... but you know what saves lives... doing nothing! I know this based on no evidence and zero research."
Nice assumption...

I guess my years as an emergency physician in a trauma center are meaningless. You guys keep on wearing your toilet seats around your neck. It's your neck...and wallet.
cslacker
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cslacker 6/9/2016 10:19am
6/9/2016 10:19am
AtlasBrace wrote:
We discounted that it accurately reflects a real world example of a crash. It isolates certain data by eliminating potential variables... and that works to create...
We discounted that it accurately reflects a real world example of a crash. It isolates certain data by eliminating potential variables... and that works to create a chart as you posted, which is all good and fine. This is semi-relative for most neck braces.

This doesn't take into account the weight of a body slamming behind the head. Our concern was to see what happens in the most violent situation we could produce. It was already proven that it helped for less violent impacts, so we wanted to try the other end of the scale that was the most violent. We felt this was closer to real life.
Which I agree is a better approach. But you still haven't published Your data. So what you post on your site as "Testing" isn't very helpful to those of us would would like some proof they do more harm than good in most situations.
NotCore
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NotCore 6/9/2016 10:20am
6/9/2016 10:20am
Tradmark wrote:
i guess its a bad business model to the "easily butt hurt crowd"
So you think it would be a good business model for a company to lecture to the thicker skinned crowd?

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TSCHAM101
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TSCHAM101 6/9/2016 10:24am
6/9/2016 10:24am
Titan1 wrote:
It's the same thing though...if I say there are Tiny purple dinosaurs living on the North Star...and someone says no there isn't...the burden of proof is...
It's the same thing though...if I say there are Tiny purple dinosaurs living on the North Star...and someone says no there isn't...the burden of proof is still on me, I can't tell them to prove there isn't.

Saying their product doesn't do what they say it does isn't equal to them making the claim that it does work.

Sorry can't prove a negative...

Where is Nerd and Engine Ice Dave when I need them? Lol
hvaughn88 wrote:
How do you know they don't live there?
Titan1 wrote:
Look at it like this...if I claim a little pill will cure cancer...I can't tell the scientific world to prove its not true...that's dumb. The burden...
Look at it like this...if I claim a little pill will cure cancer...I can't tell the scientific world to prove its not true...that's dumb. The burden of proof is on me.

This is basic stuff here...2+2=4, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, the sky is blue, and the burden of proof is on an individual making a claim...if you don't want to acknowledge it, then thats up to you, I don't have the time nor the desire to convince you.
technically the sky isnt blue... just sayin.. google it man.
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 6/9/2016 10:30am
6/9/2016 10:30am
akillerwombat wrote:
Vital in a nutshell... "I have no evidence and have done zero research to repute the claim that your device helps save lives... but you know...
Vital in a nutshell...

"I have no evidence and have done zero research to repute the claim that your device helps save lives... but you know what saves lives... doing nothing! I know this based on no evidence and zero research."
Titan1 wrote:
The burden of proof is on the individual/company making a claim, not on the people asking for evidence. They are saying their brace will prevent injustices...
The burden of proof is on the individual/company making a claim, not on the people asking for evidence.

They are saying their brace will prevent injustices like this, so it's up to them to prove it works...
hvaughn88 wrote:
Except that's not what akillerwombat is saying. He's pointing out that the people saying they don't work are making just as bold of claims as the...
Except that's not what akillerwombat is saying. He's pointing out that the people saying they don't work are making just as bold of claims as the neck brace companies and the support for their argument isn't any different from the very thing they are accusing the neck brace companies.

If someone says "in my opinion, I still have questions about the effectiveness of a neck brace and I would like to see more scientific evidence" then that's a fair enough statement. But to state as a fact "neck braces don't work" and not provide the equivalent scientific evidence is just as ridiculous.
Exactly!

If a guy wears one and gets hurt, maybe if he didn't have one it woulda been way worse.
DoctorJD
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DoctorJD 6/9/2016 10:33am
6/9/2016 10:33am
Lets apply this argument to another piece of gear:

a. How many of you wear knee braces?
b. Can you prove that they work?
c. If not, why bother wearing them?

No anecdotal evidence, just facts please.
peelout
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peelout 6/9/2016 10:40am
6/9/2016 10:40am
watching the video again it's clear that his sprocket bolts weren't torqued properly and that's what pitched him over the berm like a Joey.
cslacker
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cslacker 6/9/2016 10:43am
6/9/2016 10:43am
peelout wrote:
watching the video again it's clear that his sprocket bolts weren't torqued properly and that's what pitched him over the berm like a Joey.
watching the video again it's clear that his sprocket bolts weren't torqued properly and that's what pitched him over the berm like a Joey.
Needs to get Carlos some locktight and a torque wrench for Christmas bro
Ted722
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Ted722 6/9/2016 10:59am
6/9/2016 10:59am
I'm not sure it's so much about doubt as it is about confusion. Why would a Pro who's had a head first get off, stop wearing the brace? Broc Tickle and Will Hahn come to mind.

I may be wrong, but didn't Will have this horrendous get off last year and he's not wearing a brace this year?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c0gxNuhrYs

It's a short career as a Pro. It looks like more and more believe that they are more likely to get laid up with some broken collarbones and vertebrae wearing a brace vs.getting a spinal injury not wearing a brace. Still confused.
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hvaughn88 6/9/2016 12:06pm
6/9/2016 12:06pm
Ted722 wrote:
I'm not sure it's so much about doubt as it is about confusion. Why would a Pro who's had a head first get off, stop wearing...
I'm not sure it's so much about doubt as it is about confusion. Why would a Pro who's had a head first get off, stop wearing the brace? Broc Tickle and Will Hahn come to mind.

I may be wrong, but didn't Will have this horrendous get off last year and he's not wearing a brace this year?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c0gxNuhrYs

It's a short career as a Pro. It looks like more and more believe that they are more likely to get laid up with some broken collarbones and vertebrae wearing a brace vs.getting a spinal injury not wearing a brace. Still confused.
I remember listening to an interview Brayton did (I think on pulp but can't remember exactly which one) where he said he was turning a bit faster lap times without a neck brace on. He basically said (again, not quoting word for word here) that as a pro it was worth the risk to him not to wear one if it meant a faster lap time, given how close the competition is in lap times.

With that being said, if it comes down to risk/reward, each person can make that decision themselves. While I respect the skill these riders have, they are probably the last people I would look to for advice on safety and protection haha. But again, that's just me.
Titan1
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Titan1 6/9/2016 12:14pm
6/9/2016 12:14pm
For me, I think IF it was a scientifically proven fact that neck braces could prevent neck injuries, then the AMA, MX Sports, Feld, FIM, and sanctioning bodies/promoters across the country and around the world, would mandate them the same way they mandate helmets.

ocscottie
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ocscottie 6/9/2016 12:18pm
6/9/2016 12:18pm
Dont know if this has been posted, Aldon interview on RX click HERE

Pretty scary, he just felt a little stiff on Sunday and decided to get checked out, fracture and also a herniated disc. Really lucky he decided to go get looked at.
mx510
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mx510 6/9/2016 12:24pm
6/9/2016 12:24pm
Titan1 wrote:
For me, I think IF it was a scientifically proven fact that neck braces could prevent neck injuries, then the AMA, MX Sports, Feld, FIM, and...
For me, I think IF it was a scientifically proven fact that neck braces could prevent neck injuries, then the AMA, MX Sports, Feld, FIM, and sanctioning bodies/promoters across the country and around the world, would mandate them the same way they mandate helmets.

What exact tests and proof do you need to see? What is it, what test and what result? Why don't you take Atlas' advise and call the lab where they had the tests done, see what information you can dig up. And you are wrong about the mandate part, just as they haven't mandated knee braces, the promoters/sanctioning bodies won't even mandate chest protection.
sandspider250 6/9/2016 12:41pm
6/9/2016 12:41pm
Scary- scary - scary.

To RD5: Enjoy some well deserved and overdue time off. Take your wife on a second honeymoon!
Turn off the internet too.
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 6/9/2016 12:43pm
6/9/2016 12:43pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2016 12:43pm
Titan1 wrote:
For me, I think IF it was a scientifically proven fact that neck braces could prevent neck injuries, then the AMA, MX Sports, Feld, FIM, and...
For me, I think IF it was a scientifically proven fact that neck braces could prevent neck injuries, then the AMA, MX Sports, Feld, FIM, and sanctioning bodies/promoters across the country and around the world, would mandate them the same way they mandate helmets.

mx510 wrote:
What exact tests and proof do you need to see? What is it, what test and what result? Why don't you take Atlas' advise and call...
What exact tests and proof do you need to see? What is it, what test and what result? Why don't you take Atlas' advise and call the lab where they had the tests done, see what information you can dig up. And you are wrong about the mandate part, just as they haven't mandated knee braces, the promoters/sanctioning bodies won't even mandate chest protection.
They need to get twin brothers with identical builds, and shoot them head first out of the same cannon, one after the other, directly into a brick wall. One will be wearing a brace, and the other no brace, and record the results. Science.

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