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But you guys keep padding the pockets of these snake-oil salesmen.
best way to spread the impact out. With The Hans device in auto racing the data is good. You have only so many forces to predict. MX/SX , motorcycle road racing, when you have a crash, you have so many variables . Objects, angle you hit, speed, etc
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On topic, I wish Ryan a speedy recovery, and just hope someone can find some speed to challenge Roczen, or this series is gonna be very boring
It's not as though they are a mandatory protection required by the AMA. At this point, all it really comes down is the rider and their preference. If wearing a neck brace makes Barcia or Trey feel confident out there on the track then so be it. If Seely or Dungey choose not to wear one because it feels too restrictive, or whatever the hell the reason may be, that's also fine! They've turned down good money from yet another sponsor and I would like to think it's with good reason. But more importantly, it really is of no consequence to any of us!
I don't think Atlas had any ill intentions on this thread, and everyone jumping down their throat about where and when to market their product probably needs to relax a bit. Although the "cash contract" bit shouldn't be part of a public forum, and seems a bit unprofessional, it's hard to imagine a thread about a broken vertebrae without also having someone from the safety realm chime in.
" especially when the product has been offered, along with cash, yet he decides to take the risk and then ends up in this situation."
"I have no evidence and have done zero research to repute the claim that your device helps save lives... but you know what saves lives... doing nothing! I know this based on no evidence and zero research."
They are saying their brace will prevent injustices like this, so it's up to them to prove it works...
If someone says "in my opinion, I still have questions about the effectiveness of a neck brace and I would like to see more scientific evidence" then that's a fair enough statement. But to state as a fact "neck braces don't work" and not provide the equivalent scientific evidence is just as ridiculous.
Saying their product doesn't do what they say it does isn't equal to them making the claim that it does work.
Sorry can't prove a negative...
Where is Nerd and Engine Ice Dave when I need them? Lol
With no real evidence from any company, you still have a group of people that are diehard believers, and others that will go to their grave saying they absolutely do not help, and in fact do more harm than good. When results for something are THAT inconclusive, and for so long, I tune out as a consumer, and thats when it comes to down to preference. I'd love to know what would be best to be wearing (or not wearing) in the event of a crash, but like you said, the data's just not there.
On another note, nice to see another Thousand Oaks native on here, I grew up there
Pit Row
This is basic stuff here...2+2=4, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, the sky is blue, and the burden of proof is on an individual making a claim...if you don't want to acknowledge it, then thats up to you, I don't have the time nor the desire to convince you.
Just leave them alone, to live on the North Star in peace and quiet free of restrictive protective devices....
I also think this is a fair opportunity & place to have this discussion. If it had been introduced after something much worse such as Ernestos injury, that would be a bit different.
@tpog496 and Early - A tough crowd is one thing, this is an impossible crowd.
@Jimmy_Sloan, Colonel, Tek14, Davbrukas, Hvaughn88 - You can start with www.atlasbrace.com/testing/ , but the problem is you guys want the impossible. We can release our data showing reductions in forces, but Leatt already did that and you guys didn't believe it. That data is still out there, online, for everyone to read. You guys want us all to say 100% you wont get hurt wearing this, ever. But we can't do that! So it comes down to, do you want to reduce the forces to your neck in a crash, or not reduce them at all? It isn't as complicated as you guys make it out to be. The data from "real world crashes" will come with time, that is ultimately the stats you guys will want. But it takes years to compile and has to have enough instances documented to come to a real conclusion... we aren't there yet.
We test at a 3rd party in California (not our own lab, not bias), with the same people that developed the neck unit Leatt uses, same people that did 6D's testing (some of it using the dummy that we had built), same people that are testing for the military, various car companies, etc. Here is their website, maybe it is better if some of you guys call and talk to them about neck braces, since they are the PhDs and biomechanical engineers who designed our test rig and tested ours, and other products - http://www.dynres.com.
The other part many of you may not know is our brace isn't rigid. It's flexible... think of it as added muscle/ligaments for your neck.... it helps absorb and control the impact. This is a very different approach than other companies because we believe in the way that your body naturally functions. The issue is we are throwing forces at our bodies that they can't handle by themselves... the speeds are high and the impacts are violent. So we designed our product to function as an extension of the body, not a foreign object that could cause additional harm. We sit around the spine and sternum, we sit on 27% MORE surface area of your body than the competition to help spread the load out over a greater area, we have suspension built into the chest supports, padding overtop of the collarbone.... and we flex. This is not like other braces.
Helmets have a long history, but none of them claim anymore than we do. They reduce forces to the head. Enough to stop an injury? Can't say.. Yet you guys aren't clawing for data from any other type of protection... only neck braces. We apologize that the first company may have left a bad taste in your mouth... but when we came around all the other brace manufactures started changing how they designed their product.. We think that speaks volumes to our credibility.
Like akillerwombat said - doing nothing doesn't help the problem. We are trying to do something to help the problem. Some of you don't agree with that and that is ok! That is your choice. But don't attack us for trying to be part of the solution... If you guys have ideas to help improve the product we are all ears... but in the mean time we are trying our best using all the technology available to us to create something that can help people, and does reduce forces.
On the note of peoples and doctors testimonials - we didn't say they are proof, we said it makes us sleep better at night knowing we have positively impacted peoples lives.
@ns503 - Thank you! We mean well, but Vital is a brick wall that is difficult to convince that even the sky is blue. So you're right, we do have way more to lose than gain by all this back and forth, but because we hate seeing people get hurt we can't just stay silent on the subject.
the facts here are their are no facts. too many variables to legitimately claim either/or....i think it falls into snake oil category. that is why these neck brace threads go haywire. sales are more determined by emotion more than data. kinda like chronic conditions that have no fix but special elixir makers market to them anyways out of the patients desperation to fix the chronic condition.
What we did do as part of our reason to exist is try to address every single aspect we could to try and minimize any secondary potential for injury. Here are some examples:
- Sit around the spring and sternum
- Chest suspension (keeping the body in the motion, rather than sudden stop)
- Larger surface area distributed on the body, but in a smaller, lighter package
- Compliant foam surfaces on the shoulder of the body
- Padding up and over the collarbone
- A split frame for flex, and also that gap in the back sits around vertebrae incase it gets pushed into your body...
- Flexible frame, to act as a shock wave during an impact and push forces away from the point of impact
These are just a few things we engineered to be different than the other guys.
Helmets reduce forces to the head.
Both have data available to look at online, one just has less history. People have died wearing helmets but no one ever says "LOOK THAT GUY DIED, HELMETS ARE DANGEROUS!".
Bottom line is extreme sports are dangerous. We could race in giant plastic bubbles but people will still find a way to crash, and suffocate inside the bubble.
It's easy to poke a hole in virtually every single situation that exists... but that doesn't mean what we have doesn't do what it is intended to do, and just like helmets injuries will continue to happen.. the best we can do is try to reduce the severity of them as much as possible.
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