What is your Chase suggestion?

The Rock
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4/29/2016 6:29pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 6:31pm
Dezerted wrote:
It cheapens the championship.... How so? Your season can be ruined in 1 race, whether it's a 4 race season or 17. This has been proven...
It cheapens the championship.... How so? Your season can be ruined in 1 race, whether it's a 4 race season or 17. This has been proven.

Let's use baseball for example..
Teams in the same division make the playoffs. (Team A and Team B.)
They play head to head 19 times and 162 total games each.
Team A wins 14 of the 19 head to head and 97 total
Team B wins 83
They meet in Rd 1 in the playoffs
Team B gets hot and wins 4 of 7 and goes on to win the World Series.

Is anybody whining how cheap this is? How much bullshit this is? Obviously Team A was the superior team right? They should be champion not B but this isn't how it works and it's known from the get go and everybody is fine with it. Yes sx is a point based season but essentially it's a head to head season. Yes there is outside interferences to both Rider A and Rider B but they are equal to both. Both are on the track with 18 others, both start on the same line (0-0 essentially) So pull up your panties and quit whining, it's a rideoff(playoff). Playoffs are exciting, this current state is not (championship) and rarely is.

The best guys will still win, it's not like the bullshit some have claimed, Brayton types aren't suddenly going to be champions. And if they are? Dungey, Tomac, Roczen, Canard, Reed etc all choked
brimx153 wrote:
Is nt the only time a Chase would have changed the championship was when BRAYTON would of won the championship .
Dezerted wrote:
No, you CANNOT use previous years as an example of fact. You have no idea what would if changed if they knew they were in a...
No, you CANNOT use previous years as an example of fact. You have no idea what would if changed if they knew they were in a chase format round 1. Those who use that are just spewing hogwash to prove their point

Besides do you even know the point structure? How many races are involved? Riders involved? Without all of that, that already ridiculous hypothetical is even more ridiculous
Gentlemen if you don't have a Chase structure to offer please take your debate to the 3 and 3 thread. I am interested in hearing Chase structure suggestions (hence the thread title) but have zero interest in learning your opinions of the Chase itself in this thread.

Thanks and have a good weekend.
akillerwombat
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4/29/2016 6:35pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 6:36pm
The Rock wrote:
[b]Gentlemen if you don't have a Chase structure to offer please take your debate to the 3 and 3 thread. [/b] I am interested in hearing...
Gentlemen if you don't have a Chase structure to offer please take your debate to the 3 and 3 thread. I am interested in hearing Chase structure suggestions (hence the thread title) but have zero interest in learning your opinions of the Chase itself in this thread.

Thanks and have a good weekend.
Chase structure is a structure within itself – are you looking for non-chase structure suggestions?

Regardless, I think having both sides of the argument present when discussing new options is the healthiest way to go about having said conversations... IE, New idea(s) vs Chase vs Current format.
andymoto
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4/29/2016 6:40pm
The old saying Don't Fix What Isn't Broken might be applicable here Rock.

Don't know if changing or adding way points are distributed will help or confuse the fans.







ktmwoods
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4/29/2016 7:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 7:22pm
BBarnes720 wrote:
Double points for last 5 rounds.
OK so Seriously: THE PLAYOFFS for SUPERCROSS

first 12 races = regular season, regular points (double purse payouts from XXXXXX at Feld

THEN:
Last 5 races = The Playoffs
Last 5 races escalate from regular season point payouts to 1.25X, 1.5X, 1.75X and 2X (double) points for last five races to final race. So a win in the last race is 50 points, second is 46, etc. Still rewards winning, consistency, risk - all in one. Guys will send it hard!

AND those XXXXX at Feld should have to pay triple purse payout to the riders as well. This way nobody is punished, their points from the regular season count, and the "playoffs" give those further back a fighting chance while taking NOTHING away from the regular season leaders. And fans get a great show!

The Shop

The Rock
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4/29/2016 7:16pm
andymoto wrote:
The old saying Don't Fix What Isn't Broken might be applicable here Rock. Don't know if changing or adding way points are distributed will help or...
The old saying Don't Fix What Isn't Broken might be applicable here Rock.

Don't know if changing or adding way points are distributed will help or confuse the fans.







Can't agree or disagree but that's besides the point IMO.

From my perspective the Chase is happening regardless if I hate it and you love it or vice versa. Accordingly it seems a better use of time to float proposals than it does to debate the merits of the Chase.

ktmwoods-Thank you for the comments but the name calling accomplishes nothing. People's ears and minds close when one "goes there" with the language.

ktmwoods
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4/29/2016 7:21pm
andymoto wrote:
The old saying Don't Fix What Isn't Broken might be applicable here Rock. Don't know if changing or adding way points are distributed will help or...
The old saying Don't Fix What Isn't Broken might be applicable here Rock.

Don't know if changing or adding way points are distributed will help or confuse the fans.







The Rock wrote:
Can't agree or disagree but that's besides the point IMO. From my perspective the Chase is happening regardless if I hate it and you love it...
Can't agree or disagree but that's besides the point IMO.

From my perspective the Chase is happening regardless if I hate it and you love it or vice versa. Accordingly it seems a better use of time to float proposals than it does to debate the merits of the Chase.

ktmwoods-Thank you for the comments but the name calling accomplishes nothing. People's ears and minds close when one "goes there" with the language.

OK, subtract the language and the work is done for Feld, but I still stand by the statement that they are not paying the riders nearly enough @theRock
motogrady
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4/29/2016 7:37pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 9:28pm
I'll play.

16 races.
Top 11 at round 9 get points reset to zero, and race on to the Premier Supercross Cup Championship.
The bottom 11 keep points, and race on to the Privateer Supercross Cup Championship.
Both 250, and 450.
TXDirt
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4/29/2016 7:50pm
The Rock wrote:
[b]Thank you very much to those of you that are contributing Chase suggestions[/b] [i]instead of your opinions on the merit of the Chase concept. [/i] Regarding...
Thank you very much to those of you that are contributing Chase suggestions instead of your opinions on the merit of the Chase concept.

Regarding cutting number of riders in the mains this IMHO is a horrible idea. There is no better practice than racing and the 11th through 22nd guys won't get any faster watching ten rider mains.
I think if you go to a chase format then you should cut the main to 20 maybe even 15. If you watch the start of the race right now there are easily 5 guys who outright quit at the start because they know they have no chance. So for the remainder of the 20 laps they are just riding around really not doing anything and just in the way. Mainly just happy to be in the main but literally add zero value to the main event itself. Perhaps a 15 rider main at the last 3 to 5 rounds would be better. Get the best of the best when it comes down to the wire and let them battle it out. I think the disparity in skill from first place to 22 place may be greater in supercross then possibly any other sport. Using Nascar as an example, which I hate to use but I think is is a good comparison here, the guy who qualifies last place and starts last in line still has a shot at winning the race. The same cannot be said for supercross. I think it compares to timed qualifying in supercross. The slowest timed rider has absolutely zero chance in hell of even cracking top 15, and less then zero chance of winning.

We always start with 22 riders because that's the way it's always been done. But that sure is the poorest reason to keep doing the same thing.
andymoto
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4/29/2016 8:09pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 8:16pm
Re-read your original post Michael. Tightening points sound far more reasonable with the two throw outs. One for fastest in qualifying and the 2 heat winners since all 40 on the line.
The Rock
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4/29/2016 8:22pm
Chase structure is a structure within itself – are you looking for non-chase structure suggestions? Regardless, I think having both sides of the argument present when...
Chase structure is a structure within itself – are you looking for non-chase structure suggestions?

Regardless, I think having both sides of the argument present when discussing new options is the healthiest way to go about having said conversations... IE, New idea(s) vs Chase vs Current format.
The title of this thread is pretty self explanatory so that is my answer to what I'm looking for.

If you feel strongly enough then feel free start a thread (if you don't find the 3 and 3 thread adequate) titled New idea(s) vs Chase vs Current format.

Or keep ignoring the thread title and my two previous replies and keep at it.
The Rock
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4/29/2016 8:24pm
ktmwoods wrote:
OK, subtract the language and the work is done for Feld, but I still stand by the statement that they are not paying the riders nearly...
OK, subtract the language and the work is done for Feld, but I still stand by the statement that they are not paying the riders nearly enough @theRock
A lot of fans feel the way you do about the purse payout.
andymoto
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4/29/2016 9:18pm
Take existing points system or The Rock's. The top 20 in points for the title at LV. Same time trials for gate pick. Be 4 races where 5 get eliminated, 10 laps each, last 5 race 10 laps for the title. Maybe mentioned already.
akillerwombat
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4/29/2016 9:26pm
The Rock wrote:
The title of this thread is pretty self explanatory so that is my answer to what I'm looking for. If you feel strongly enough then feel...
The title of this thread is pretty self explanatory so that is my answer to what I'm looking for.

If you feel strongly enough then feel free start a thread (if you don't find the 3 and 3 thread adequate) titled New idea(s) vs Chase vs Current format.

Or keep ignoring the thread title and my two previous replies and keep at it.
The title "What is your Chase suggestion?" implies that we suggest Chase the format, which is an exact format within itself.

If you're looking for non-chase suggestions then the thread title does a poor job of explaining that.
The Rock
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4/29/2016 10:36pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 10:55pm
The title "[b]What is your Chase suggestion?[/b]" implies that we [i]suggest Chase the format[/i], which is an exact format within itself. If you're looking for non-chase...
The title "What is your Chase suggestion?" implies that we suggest Chase the format, which is an exact format within itself.

If you're looking for non-chase suggestions then the thread title does a poor job of explaining that.
I'm not asking for non Chase formats since it is a given the Chase is coming with the only question what will the exact chase format look like.

Speak now or forever keep a sock in it.

The Rock
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4/29/2016 10:53pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 10:54pm
TXDirt wrote:
I think if you go to a chase format then you should cut the main to 20 maybe even 15. If you watch the start of...
I think if you go to a chase format then you should cut the main to 20 maybe even 15. If you watch the start of the race right now there are easily 5 guys who outright quit at the start because they know they have no chance. So for the remainder of the 20 laps they are just riding around really not doing anything and just in the way. Mainly just happy to be in the main but literally add zero value to the main event itself. Perhaps a 15 rider main at the last 3 to 5 rounds would be better. Get the best of the best when it comes down to the wire and let them battle it out. I think the disparity in skill from first place to 22 place may be greater in supercross then possibly any other sport. Using Nascar as an example, which I hate to use but I think is is a good comparison here, the guy who qualifies last place and starts last in line still has a shot at winning the race. The same cannot be said for supercross. I think it compares to timed qualifying in supercross. The slowest timed rider has absolutely zero chance in hell of even cracking top 15, and less then zero chance of winning.

We always start with 22 riders because that's the way it's always been done. But that sure is the poorest reason to keep doing the same thing.
"We always start with 22 riders because that's the way it's always been done. But that sure is the poorest reason to keep doing the same thing."

No we always haven't started with 22 riders. I do agree with your last sentence.

I think Feld/AMA/FIM have done a good job tweaking things over the last three to five years with bringing back the 450 semis and expanding the 250 class back to the 22 rider fields we had in the 125 days.

Believe the last three or so years is the first time the premier class has ever been 22 riders.

I'm over talking about lap times and just wish the powers to be stop the nonsense and give us timed mains.......again. It just doesn't compute that fans at some venues see more racing than others. How is that fair?

I also can't believe the TV Production company doesn't demand timed mains. The sticking point appears to be the thinking fans can't handle different lap counts and it would be too confusing.

If that is true I sure hope none of these people drive. Those traffic lights having 3 different colors must be really tough for these people. Sarcasm aside most of the casual fans I see don't even pay that close attention plus have a tendency to leave early to beat traffic.
The Rock
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4/30/2016 12:57am
andymoto wrote:
Re-read your original post Michael. Tightening points sound far more reasonable with the two throw outs. One for fastest in qualifying and the 2 heat winners...
Re-read your original post Michael. Tightening points sound far more reasonable with the two throw outs. One for fastest in qualifying and the 2 heat winners since all 40 on the line.
The two throw outs I took from F1 a few decades ago and someone I have immense respect for suggested the points restructure.

I am not understanding your last sentence but want to. Please clarify. Thank you.

Whatever the Chase winds up being I hope it will be straightforward for a couple of reasons:

1) I'm easily confused
2) I don't want to have to take my shoes off to deal with complicated math.
4/30/2016 1:44am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2016 1:56am
The Rock wrote:
I'm not asking for non Chase formats since it is a given the Chase is coming with the only question what will the exact chase format...
I'm not asking for non Chase formats since it is a given the Chase is coming with the only question what will the exact chase format look like.

Speak now or forever keep a sock in it.



Just use this, dude, since you apparently own the thread.
Flip109
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4/30/2016 4:19am
No points. Just prize money. Problem solved. Richest dude at the end of the season wins. Which is true anyway.

I'm in big favor of less qualifying bullshit. Double moto format. More chances to see battles that matter. Roczen gets a crappy start moto one. Dungey runs away. Boohoo. 2nd moto might be better racing. Go grab a beer real quick. Lol
10000hrs
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4/30/2016 4:39am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2016 4:40am
It seems the solution to the problem we are trying to solve is to make end of season races more exciting by making them more important. A second way to do this is to make each race pay more points than the last. No win and your in. No resets.

A way to do this is to make the first race pay points as it is now, ie 25 points. The second race has one point added to each position so a win pays 26. The third race pays 27 point etc. In this way the last race of the season is worth about twice as much as the first. Might have to tweek it with a two point adder rather than one.

I think the above is the least disruptive way to have a Chase while respecting the past.
TXDirt
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4/30/2016 5:05am
The Rock wrote:
"[b]We always start with 22 riders because that's the way it's always been done[/b]. But that sure is the poorest reason to keep doing the same...
"We always start with 22 riders because that's the way it's always been done. But that sure is the poorest reason to keep doing the same thing."

No we always haven't started with 22 riders. I do agree with your last sentence.

I think Feld/AMA/FIM have done a good job tweaking things over the last three to five years with bringing back the 450 semis and expanding the 250 class back to the 22 rider fields we had in the 125 days.

Believe the last three or so years is the first time the premier class has ever been 22 riders.

I'm over talking about lap times and just wish the powers to be stop the nonsense and give us timed mains.......again. It just doesn't compute that fans at some venues see more racing than others. How is that fair?

I also can't believe the TV Production company doesn't demand timed mains. The sticking point appears to be the thinking fans can't handle different lap counts and it would be too confusing.

If that is true I sure hope none of these people drive. Those traffic lights having 3 different colors must be really tough for these people. Sarcasm aside most of the casual fans I see don't even pay that close attention plus have a tendency to leave early to beat traffic.
I was being a bit facetious with "always 22 riders" knowing full well it has not always been that. I believe it was 20 for a long time. My point is that off the start 5 guys always quit. So why not just drop the mains down to 15 for the chase. Or perhaps institute a new rule that if you get lapped within the first 10 laps you get black flagged. For some reason I always cringe seeing guys quit at the start and then are just joy riding around for 20 laps. If the chase is meant to be better or more exciting racing then I would prefer to just have the best on the track. Yes, the 5 guys who quit I guess could be considered "some of the best" at what they do, but that is only because of the current format of allowing 22 into the main. By having 22 into the main you dilute the product significantly. It would actually be great to have lets say a 10 lap main of 22 riders and then take top 15 from that and move them to the championship main for 20 laps. Even better drawing from Nascar a bit... have a 22 rider 10 lap main. And then a 3 minute pit stop and watch the mechanics gas up, change tires, new goggles, whatever you can get done in 3 minutes and then line the 15 back up for the final 20 lap main. Maybe even just line up the best 12.
kkawboy14
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4/30/2016 6:15am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2016 6:18am
If it's 2 seasons in 1, with the riders being rewarded for both, then that will be a Real Chase, if it's just a points reset, then that will be a joke!

Granted that most things applied in this sport where in the riders take a hit, it has been a joke.

When other parties have to take a hit, they go to court......
Corey_Tallent
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4/30/2016 6:42am
I don't like the chase format. However I do like the idea of the final gate count being 12 riders in the main event. That should take care of most of the "got a bad start " excuses and will almost guarantee very few if any lappers.
ocscottie
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4/30/2016 7:42am
disbanded
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4/30/2016 7:52am
Instead of a chase we should just keep it real.

Flip109
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4/30/2016 8:06am
I don't like the chase format. However I do like the idea of the final gate count being 12 riders in the main event. That should...
I don't like the chase format. However I do like the idea of the final gate count being 12 riders in the main event. That should take care of most of the "got a bad start " excuses and will almost guarantee very few if any lappers.
Kinda like that idea. Freaking halfway through the main riders spread out everywhere on the track. Sometimes you lose the leaders and you spend a bit trying to figure out who in the hell is in what position. Pinch
10000hrs
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4/30/2016 8:14am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2016 8:15am
Rock,

How about if you assume the role of unofficial editor of these concepts ( seems like you are already) and propose the three best for a Vital poll? I doubt that there is a group of better informed people ( and certainly no group with stronger opinions) in the MX community to shuss out what they want to see. Hopefully the powers that be would take a look.
Jimmy_Sloan
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4/30/2016 8:38am
You've flipped a bit from your previous post, originally you said "[i]They don't tally up points in football or baseball, and they don't tally up wins...
You've flipped a bit from your previous post, originally you said "They don't tally up points in football or baseball, and they don't tally up wins and then reset them". Again, they clearly do reset the wins (while continuing the tally wins for records / streaks) by putting everyone that makes it to the playoffs in professional sports on the same playing field, "win and move on".

Unlike Football (sticking with football) I would imagine that the riders would have something like 4 races in the post-season to prove they should move on which is sort of like 4 quarters of football, of which the "Super Bowl" of Supercross would be another 3-4 races... it's not like they are going to reset the points going into Vegas.

As far as devisions and what not, if we had enough participation I'd imagine we would go this route as well, we're just too small of a sport.
There is a difference between sports that count win/loss and one's that use a points based system. In football, baseball, etc, they do not reset anything, they to a playoff system where they win or are eliminated. Their win/loss record remains the same whether they move on or not. In chase, they are talking about taking points away that a rider earned. Given that you have divisions and a win/loss record it makes sense to have playoffs to see who the best team is. In supercross, there is no need for that since the points speak for themselves.

Chase = bad idea, no matter how you put it. The best argument that chase supporters have offered is that it may make it more exciting come the reset which is a poor argument given my above explanations.


Tarz483
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4/30/2016 9:11am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2016 9:13am
I hope they make some changes
I dont want a different winner per say
Just something to tighten the points up a bit
Perhapse
1 point per position and lowest amount wins

Finish 1st get 1 point
Finish 2nd get 2 points etc
Finish 20th get 20 points
Dungey would still be winning but maybe the points would be tighter
dkg
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4/30/2016 9:29am
10000hrs wrote:
Rock, How about if you assume the role of unofficial editor of these concepts ( seems like you are already) and propose the three best for...
Rock,

How about if you assume the role of unofficial editor of these concepts ( seems like you are already) and propose the three best for a Vital poll? I doubt that there is a group of better informed people ( and certainly no group with stronger opinions) in the MX community to shuss out what they want to see. Hopefully the powers that be would take a look.
For any poll to be valid, it would have to include the option of no chase. Let's not play politics with this and actually create a valid poll.
Corey_Tallent
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4/30/2016 9:57am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2016 10:01am
I don't like the chase format. However I do like the idea of the final gate count being 12 riders in the main event. That should...
I don't like the chase format. However I do like the idea of the final gate count being 12 riders in the main event. That should take care of most of the "got a bad start " excuses and will almost guarantee very few if any lappers.
Flip109 wrote:
Kinda like that idea. Freaking halfway through the main riders spread out everywhere on the track. Sometimes you lose the leaders and you spend a bit...
Kinda like that idea. Freaking halfway through the main riders spread out everywhere on the track. Sometimes you lose the leaders and you spend a bit trying to figure out who in the hell is in what position. Pinch
Exactly. I was on a tablet when I wrote that earlier this morning. Let me elaborate my thinking.

The positions 13-22 riders do not ride at the levels of the top 12 riders for an entire race. They may do it for one or three laps but the race spreads out and gets dangerous for those racing for the lead having to deal with lappers who do the right thing and move over or avoid the action, and those (Friese and a few others) that love to cause problems. Sometimes, the top 7-12 riders do not ride at a pace remotely close to the 1-2, but I believe that if the 12 rider final gate was done, it would give all of the riders a better chance at pulling great starts because of the wild luck of some of the 13-20 guys make life hell for any of the top 12 who get behind them and by the time they get around them, after 1 or 2 laps, the leaders are GONE.

Meanwhile those 13-20 guys who held the 12-7 riders up just long enough to be "out of the race" start backtracking and by the time half the race is over, they are "rolling" the track. That gets boring for the sport and and very boring for the fans and like you said, it makes it hard to figure who is in what position.


So, here is a way to satisfy everyone.

Do the normal way of qualifying and heat races, etc. Let the 22 riders who would normally make the final gate and then split it. 13th qualifier and up to 22 go to a "consolation" main event, in between the 250 and 450 main event. Amongst themselves 13-22 will make a GREAT race. Just think of the Last Chance Qualifier races. They are usually more exciting than the main events.

The 450 gets the top 12 and will give more validation to their talent and skill which typically are considerably more than 13-22. It would give riders more reason to do better in their qualifiers and heat races because even if the likes of Eli Tomac or Justin Bogle or even Ryan Dungey, do not qualify 12th or better, for whatever reason, it evens up the field and they go to the consolation race. There would be no "Premier" main event points awarded for going to the consolation race.


I think fans want to see a more even racing event. 5 guys or more battling for a lead is "possible" with a 12 rider main gate start. I honestly believe that.

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