one moto format in 09?

-eagle-
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-eagle- 5/9/2008 6:51am
5/9/2008 6:51am
gt80rider
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gt80rider 5/9/2008 8:27am
5/9/2008 8:27am
as long as the one moto is over an hour long, i love the idea!

but seriously..... sx has been reduced to a circus show with very little racing involved... hate to see'em do it to the nationals as well....
Sondy132001
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Sondy132001 5/9/2008 9:29am
5/9/2008 9:29am
Tiki wrote:
how many do you attend currently. From what I understand the outdoors generate 10-12,000 entries from the viewing public. Hell a SX gets 40,000, plus parking...
how many do you attend currently. From what I understand the outdoors generate 10-12,000 entries from the viewing public. Hell a SX gets 40,000, plus parking and consessions. So who makes more money?

Seems logical to me. One moto format makes it easier to sell to TV. Do any of you think Baseball players make $20 Million a year because baseball is the national pastime?
harescrambled wrote:
Where are you getting your numbers from? I've been to Kenworthy's, Steel City, Hi Point, and Red Bud, and there have been more than 10,000-12,000 people...
Where are you getting your numbers from? I've been to Kenworthy's, Steel City, Hi Point, and Red Bud, and there have been more than 10,000-12,000 people there. Every outdoor I've been to has been over 18,000 spectators on Sunday.
Actually from what I have been told the AMA (pre Dingman) have been inflating the numbers for years for sponsorship reasons and the 18,000+ plus you hear about are false. Serious if you really think about it, it's just not true and 10-12,000 is not bad, that's a shit load of people. For instance at Colorado you aren't allowed to park there at the track, you get bussed in, well 18,000 people on busses, that would take days to bus in not hours. Glen Helen is a big place, but think about 20,000 people and the cars they would have to park there, just doesn't make sense.

Someone posted pics of the National tracks from Google Earth I believe and the one thing that I thought was amazing is how small the venues were, that surprised me, so the numbers that are "true" makes more sense to me.

S
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flarider 5/9/2008 9:31am
5/9/2008 9:31am
Sondy132001 wrote:
Actually from what I have been told the AMA (pre Dingman) have been inflating the numbers for years for sponsorship reasons and the 18,000+ plus you...
Actually from what I have been told the AMA (pre Dingman) have been inflating the numbers for years for sponsorship reasons and the 18,000+ plus you hear about are false. Serious if you really think about it, it's just not true and 10-12,000 is not bad, that's a shit load of people. For instance at Colorado you aren't allowed to park there at the track, you get bussed in, well 18,000 people on busses, that would take days to bus in not hours. Glen Helen is a big place, but think about 20,000 people and the cars they would have to park there, just doesn't make sense.

Someone posted pics of the National tracks from Google Earth I believe and the one thing that I thought was amazing is how small the venues were, that surprised me, so the numbers that are "true" makes more sense to me.

S
I agree.
Many of the numbers are impractical and inflated.

The Shop

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zookrider62 5/9/2008 9:49am
5/9/2008 9:49am
docweedon wrote:
^^does anyone remember when ESPN would dedicate 2 hrs. for the Nationals on TV?!! For both the 125s and 250s?! We got 4 hrs. total of...
^^does anyone remember when ESPN would dedicate 2 hrs. for the Nationals on TV?!! For both the 125s and 250s?! We got 4 hrs. total of outdoor motocross racing?!!
That wasn't that long ago fellas.
Yes, I remember that, but those days are long gone.
APLMAN
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APLMAN 5/9/2008 10:00am
5/9/2008 10:00am
Tiki wrote:
how many do you attend currently. From what I understand the outdoors generate 10-12,000 entries from the viewing public. Hell a SX gets 40,000, plus parking...
how many do you attend currently. From what I understand the outdoors generate 10-12,000 entries from the viewing public. Hell a SX gets 40,000, plus parking and consessions. So who makes more money?

Seems logical to me. One moto format makes it easier to sell to TV. Do any of you think Baseball players make $20 Million a year because baseball is the national pastime?
harescrambled wrote:
Where are you getting your numbers from? I've been to Kenworthy's, Steel City, Hi Point, and Red Bud, and there have been more than 10,000-12,000 people...
Where are you getting your numbers from? I've been to Kenworthy's, Steel City, Hi Point, and Red Bud, and there have been more than 10,000-12,000 people there. Every outdoor I've been to has been over 18,000 spectators on Sunday.
Sondy132001 wrote:
Actually from what I have been told the AMA (pre Dingman) have been inflating the numbers for years for sponsorship reasons and the 18,000+ plus you...
Actually from what I have been told the AMA (pre Dingman) have been inflating the numbers for years for sponsorship reasons and the 18,000+ plus you hear about are false. Serious if you really think about it, it's just not true and 10-12,000 is not bad, that's a shit load of people. For instance at Colorado you aren't allowed to park there at the track, you get bussed in, well 18,000 people on busses, that would take days to bus in not hours. Glen Helen is a big place, but think about 20,000 people and the cars they would have to park there, just doesn't make sense.

Someone posted pics of the National tracks from Google Earth I believe and the one thing that I thought was amazing is how small the venues were, that surprised me, so the numbers that are "true" makes more sense to me.

S
I think the car situation is much different than from, say, a baseball or football game. At those because of the "assigned seating" it's not as often that you might have 6 or 8 people crammed into an SUV to drive to the event. Tickets generally seem to be sold in pairs, and sometimes 4 at a time. Occasionally the block, but when you have an event that is not assigned seating, like the Nationals, then you can cram tons of people into a car for the road trip to the race.

Just in looking at the parking at Washougal, I could see them having close to 20K. The parking "lots" are crammed to the gills and there always seems to be lots of people falling out of those SUVs, etc.
Sondy132001
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Sondy132001 5/9/2008 10:11am
5/9/2008 10:11am
harescrambled wrote:
Where are you getting your numbers from? I've been to Kenworthy's, Steel City, Hi Point, and Red Bud, and there have been more than 10,000-12,000 people...
Where are you getting your numbers from? I've been to Kenworthy's, Steel City, Hi Point, and Red Bud, and there have been more than 10,000-12,000 people there. Every outdoor I've been to has been over 18,000 spectators on Sunday.
Sondy132001 wrote:
Actually from what I have been told the AMA (pre Dingman) have been inflating the numbers for years for sponsorship reasons and the 18,000+ plus you...
Actually from what I have been told the AMA (pre Dingman) have been inflating the numbers for years for sponsorship reasons and the 18,000+ plus you hear about are false. Serious if you really think about it, it's just not true and 10-12,000 is not bad, that's a shit load of people. For instance at Colorado you aren't allowed to park there at the track, you get bussed in, well 18,000 people on busses, that would take days to bus in not hours. Glen Helen is a big place, but think about 20,000 people and the cars they would have to park there, just doesn't make sense.

Someone posted pics of the National tracks from Google Earth I believe and the one thing that I thought was amazing is how small the venues were, that surprised me, so the numbers that are "true" makes more sense to me.

S
APLMAN wrote:
I think the car situation is much different than from, say, a baseball or football game. At those because of the "assigned seating" it's not as...
I think the car situation is much different than from, say, a baseball or football game. At those because of the "assigned seating" it's not as often that you might have 6 or 8 people crammed into an SUV to drive to the event. Tickets generally seem to be sold in pairs, and sometimes 4 at a time. Occasionally the block, but when you have an event that is not assigned seating, like the Nationals, then you can cram tons of people into a car for the road trip to the race.

Just in looking at the parking at Washougal, I could see them having close to 20K. The parking "lots" are crammed to the gills and there always seems to be lots of people falling out of those SUVs, etc.
Yeah I'm not going to say that some Nationals don't have big turn outs, and with Washougal they do have a big turnout for sure. Guesstimating numbers isn't easy and I am sure in an open area like mx race tracks it would be hard to tell if there were more then 12,000 there or not ?? I only handle a small amount of people when I am there, pit access, but I do have a lot of envelopes at will call. I'll have to ask Ralph that question about numbers.

Would be cool to have aeiral shots taken during a national of the ebtire facility.
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Tiki 5/9/2008 10:17am
5/9/2008 10:17am
Either way it still isnt 40,000 people. The gate and concessions are less. Is this a professional motocross event for entertainment or is this a Sunday race for fun?

If I was in charge... (I liked how that sounded) I would go for more people to the event. More money. If TV likes one long moto, I would change in a heartbeat to get more people to the event.

In my opinion the Nationals suck to actually see. I understand the east coast is different then out here. Sunday's Glen Helen is an atrocious event to attend. No crappers, expensive food. Drunk fools, dusty event. Not family friendly at all. Not to mention high population of thieves. I know more people that have had shit stolen from their trucks in the parking lot...

So I am basing this on west coast events in comparison to SX events. Have at it.
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Sondy132001 5/9/2008 10:37am
5/9/2008 10:37am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:54pm
I stated this on another board but you are all worried about spectator turn out, and how long a moto will be and tv I'd be more worried about rider participation, with gas prices and the fact sx can't get enough people to a sx, how do you think TX will do ??? so far off the beaten path...you need riders to have a race...

S
Foster576
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Foster576 5/9/2008 10:39am
5/9/2008 10:39am
Sondy132001 wrote:
I stated this on another board but you are all worried about spectator turn out, and how long a moto will be and tv I'd be...
I stated this on another board but you are all worried about spectator turn out, and how long a moto will be and tv I'd be more worried about rider participation, with gas prices and the fact sx can't get enough people to a sx, how do you think TX will do ??? so far off the beaten path...you need riders to have a race...

S
And who the hell wants to race just ONE moto?
Mod Killer
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Mod Killer 5/9/2008 11:10am
5/9/2008 11:10am
justmx wrote: "They should start with tightening up the "production" rules."


that would require enforcing them in the first place.

and if youre going to enforce the production rules, where you gonna get the revenue from when the OEM's quit financing this whole circus? Nascrap rules and single motos arent going to magically bring in new sponsors.

You made a great point, the 450 class is for the most part boring. They need to figure out how to get all this sports top talent into one premier class/series. That would be a great start, not stupid tweaks like a single moto format.
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WhipMeister 5/9/2008 12:00pm
5/9/2008 12:00pm
I think the point everyone is trying to make is how to improve things.

I know this unassailable fact: More money provides the war chest which funds improvements. The best (only?) way to get more money into MX is to attract NON-RIDERS to become interested in the sport. Period. Riders already use the stuff being sold by the advertisers (if you haven't noticed, moto-event advertising is dominated by OEMs. The OEMs now fund pretty much everything, except for the portion kicked in by the energy drink companies.).

Riders already watch the events on TV. Riders already attend the events. And you know what? We will continue to do so, no matter how pissed off we get about any format changes, because it will be the only game in town. Non-riders generally do not give a rat's ass about this sport. That's the problem.

The task is to figure out how to make this sport attractive and interesting to your golfing next door neighbor. Understanding that, I understand where the motivation comes from to tinker with the packaging to make it more friendly. I'm encouraged by that. At least the powers-that-be understand the problem. They haven't, always.
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Mod Killer 5/9/2008 2:06pm
5/9/2008 2:06pm
they get their numbers based on the total weekends attendance.

so if the same person, goes friday, saturday, and sunday, then they count as three people.

if they say that they had 18000 live spectators that meant 6000 per day (if its a three day event)

sponsors/marketing firms know this. its common practice.
APLMAN
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APLMAN 5/9/2008 2:38pm
5/9/2008 2:38pm
I think they should do AWAY with the production rule!!!!

And if the bikes "devolve" back to 1979 levels, then let's do it! I'd pay just as much to watch the fast guys ride around on 1979 era bikes and out of box vans as I would to watch them ride todays stuff out of semis.......
APLMAN
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APLMAN 5/9/2008 2:47pm
5/9/2008 2:47pm
Mod Killer wrote:
they get their numbers based on the total weekends attendance. so if the same person, goes friday, saturday, and sunday, then they count as three people...
they get their numbers based on the total weekends attendance.

so if the same person, goes friday, saturday, and sunday, then they count as three people.

if they say that they had 18000 live spectators that meant 6000 per day (if its a three day event)

sponsors/marketing firms know this. its common practice.
I think Washougal's numbers must be much higher then, especially when they do the amateur days leading up to the National.......

That track is packed pretty good several days before the National, and the crowd on Sunday is immense. I don't doubt the 25-28K numbers I have seen as being for Sunday alone, there is no way it'd be that low if you counted people twice for being there Saturday and Sunday.....
Mod Killer
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Mod Killer 5/9/2008 3:52pm
5/9/2008 3:52pm
Mod Killer wrote:
they get their numbers based on the total weekends attendance. so if the same person, goes friday, saturday, and sunday, then they count as three people...
they get their numbers based on the total weekends attendance.

so if the same person, goes friday, saturday, and sunday, then they count as three people.

if they say that they had 18000 live spectators that meant 6000 per day (if its a three day event)

sponsors/marketing firms know this. its common practice.
APLMAN wrote:
I think Washougal's numbers must be much higher then, especially when they do the amateur days leading up to the National....... That track is packed pretty...
I think Washougal's numbers must be much higher then, especially when they do the amateur days leading up to the National.......

That track is packed pretty good several days before the National, and the crowd on Sunday is immense. I don't doubt the 25-28K numbers I have seen as being for Sunday alone, there is no way it'd be that low if you counted people twice for being there Saturday and Sunday.....
believe it. if sx was a two day event, they'd be claiming 80,000 spectators.

im just sayin that when promoters approach potential sponsors, this is the format that is accepted.

the numbers given in press releases by the event, could be actual numbers or these seemingly inflated numbers, usually its the inflated ones.
Bret28g
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Bret28g 5/9/2008 4:06pm
5/9/2008 4:06pm
Quote from Dave Coombs on racerxill.com:

"Next, before we get into a whole bunch of interesting events from last weekend, I would like to squash the rumor that started on DMXS Radio when David Bailey inadvertently mentioned something about the outdoor nationals going to a one-moto format in 2009. That is absolutely not true; it was just one of many, many things thrown out there in discussions about the future of the series, live TV, etc. Rest assured the AMA Toyota Motocross Championship will be running two motos in 2009, and likely for a long time to come."

http://racerxill.com/articles/detail/3289/racerhead-19.aspx

I was glad to read this. Going to a one moto format would ruin the nationals. Lets hope DC is right!
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WhKnuckle 5/9/2008 4:08pm
5/9/2008 4:08pm
A made for TV format ignores one fact - Motocross is a lousy TV sport. You don't get anywhere near the feel of the sport watching it on TV. I know this because every time we have a non-rider over and we're watching MX, they lose interest in 10 minutes.

Outdoor motocross is, and always will be, a participant sport. Compromising the sport in an effort to make it into a mainstream sport will not be successful. The best way to build the sport is by attracting more participants - less threating, less crowded tracks; two stroke-oriented classes that are cheaper to ride; a campaign to make current riders understand that the sport depends on creating a friendly, encouraging atmosphere - those are efforts that will help. A one-moto, made-for-TV format for all races won't. It's possible that a long-moto, pit-stop, multiple formula deal would work for SELECTED races, but it's not the answer for ALL races.

Pit Row

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Mod Killer
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Mod Killer 5/9/2008 4:33pm
5/9/2008 4:33pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:54pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
A made for TV format ignores one fact - Motocross is a lousy TV sport. You don't get anywhere near the feel of the sport watching...
A made for TV format ignores one fact - Motocross is a lousy TV sport. You don't get anywhere near the feel of the sport watching it on TV. I know this because every time we have a non-rider over and we're watching MX, they lose interest in 10 minutes.

Outdoor motocross is, and always will be, a participant sport. Compromising the sport in an effort to make it into a mainstream sport will not be successful. The best way to build the sport is by attracting more participants - less threating, less crowded tracks; two stroke-oriented classes that are cheaper to ride; a campaign to make current riders understand that the sport depends on creating a friendly, encouraging atmosphere - those are efforts that will help. A one-moto, made-for-TV format for all races won't. It's possible that a long-moto, pit-stop, multiple formula deal would work for SELECTED races, but it's not the answer for ALL races.
doesnt matter how much better it is live, motogp is a million times better in person but that doesnt deter it.

if its packaged well, where marketing guru's have something they can promote and sell to sponsors, it will work.

modern motorsports are simply a big marketing tool. gone are the days of motorsports simply being about OEM branding/marketing & research 'n developement. if you want the big TV money to come in, the sport has to be packaged in a way that is sellable.

how much bigger do you expect a national series to be? especially when the worlds best often opt out of it.

the NBA, NHL, NFL, MLB, F1, MotoGP all market themselves as the premier championships in the world in their respective sports. they hand out WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP trophys. those are sports that offer live tv coverage. not many sports do.

hell, as long as the AMA has two national series competing with each other (mx & sx) its never going to be able to push one to the level that commands live tv. my point is, its not the sport itself (golf is as boring as it gets), its how it is packaged.
Tiki
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Tiki 5/9/2008 4:55pm
5/9/2008 4:55pm
Sondy132001 wrote:
I stated this on another board but you are all worried about spectator turn out, and how long a moto will be and tv I'd be...
I stated this on another board but you are all worried about spectator turn out, and how long a moto will be and tv I'd be more worried about rider participation, with gas prices and the fact sx can't get enough people to a sx, how do you think TX will do ??? so far off the beaten path...you need riders to have a race...

S
Hey Listen Lady! if you are going to be logical, you can just take your ball and go home! Cheerful

Good point, Since I'm no privateer and I don't live like one. I can not say how the gas crisis has effected the smaller teams. Just looking at Sunday races around here, the 40ft pushers are still showing up towing the 30 ft box with a practice bike and race bike for little Johnnie. It is an interesting point of view. I am still surprised by this time there hasnt been outlaw series being promoted. Good point where I dont have an answer.
race
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race 5/9/2008 5:16pm
5/9/2008 5:16pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
A made for TV format ignores one fact - Motocross is a lousy TV sport. You don't get anywhere near the feel of the sport watching...
A made for TV format ignores one fact - Motocross is a lousy TV sport. You don't get anywhere near the feel of the sport watching it on TV. I know this because every time we have a non-rider over and we're watching MX, they lose interest in 10 minutes.

Outdoor motocross is, and always will be, a participant sport. Compromising the sport in an effort to make it into a mainstream sport will not be successful. The best way to build the sport is by attracting more participants - less threating, less crowded tracks; two stroke-oriented classes that are cheaper to ride; a campaign to make current riders understand that the sport depends on creating a friendly, encouraging atmosphere - those are efforts that will help. A one-moto, made-for-TV format for all races won't. It's possible that a long-moto, pit-stop, multiple formula deal would work for SELECTED races, but it's not the answer for ALL races.

WhKnuckle wrote: A made for TV format ignores one fact - Motocross is a lousy TV sport. You don't get anywhere near the feel of the sport watching it on TV. I know this because every time we have a non-rider over and we're watching MX, they lose interest in 10 minutes.


One word - Canadian Nats.

If they really want to fix a large portion of it, all they have to do is watch how the Canucks do it. Non-stop excitement.


WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 5/9/2008 5:42pm
5/9/2008 5:42pm
In my opinion, the 2001 AMA Nationals had the best TV format and announcing in recent history, good racing on the track, and drama in the 125 class. I still can't keep people watching it for more than a few minutes before they get bored unless they're motocross enthusiasts. It's just a sport that doesn't televise well.

Again, just my opinion. Generally, I hate to see big changes made the the real competition part of the sport in order to appeal to the TV audience, because I just don't see MX ever being a big TV sport. Frankly, supercross is more interesting on TV - it's easier to follow and there's more likely to be bar to bar competition.
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KAWboy14 5/9/2008 6:29pm
5/9/2008 6:29pm
Sondy132001 wrote:
I stated this on another board but you are all worried about spectator turn out, and how long a moto will be and tv I'd be...
I stated this on another board but you are all worried about spectator turn out, and how long a moto will be and tv I'd be more worried about rider participation, with gas prices and the fact sx can't get enough people to a sx, how do you think TX will do ??? so far off the beaten path...you need riders to have a race...

S
Foster576 wrote:
And who the hell wants to race just ONE moto?
everyone who is going sx only!
APLMAN
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APLMAN 5/9/2008 8:24pm
5/9/2008 8:24pm
Mod Killer wrote:
they get their numbers based on the total weekends attendance. so if the same person, goes friday, saturday, and sunday, then they count as three people...
they get their numbers based on the total weekends attendance.

so if the same person, goes friday, saturday, and sunday, then they count as three people.

if they say that they had 18000 live spectators that meant 6000 per day (if its a three day event)

sponsors/marketing firms know this. its common practice.
APLMAN wrote:
I think Washougal's numbers must be much higher then, especially when they do the amateur days leading up to the National....... That track is packed pretty...
I think Washougal's numbers must be much higher then, especially when they do the amateur days leading up to the National.......

That track is packed pretty good several days before the National, and the crowd on Sunday is immense. I don't doubt the 25-28K numbers I have seen as being for Sunday alone, there is no way it'd be that low if you counted people twice for being there Saturday and Sunday.....
Mod Killer wrote:
believe it. if sx was a two day event, they'd be claiming 80,000 spectators. im just sayin that when promoters approach potential sponsors, this is the...
believe it. if sx was a two day event, they'd be claiming 80,000 spectators.

im just sayin that when promoters approach potential sponsors, this is the format that is accepted.

the numbers given in press releases by the event, could be actual numbers or these seemingly inflated numbers, usually its the inflated ones.
I'm just saying that my thoughts on the Washougal numbers (25-28K it seems is about average?) are that it can't be for the entire weekend, if so then it's be probably over 40K. There are that many people there, mostly because of the amateur stuff leading up to the event. The 25K+ number would seem very accurate for Sunday, though, based on the enormous crowds that are packed in and around the place.
Tiki
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Tiki 5/9/2008 8:57pm
5/9/2008 8:57pm
I wasnt saying over the weekend. I was saying on race day.

2007 MXdN. Anyone have accurate numbers of that race? I cant get anything solid but twice I heard 50,000. Youthstream was quite abou that. Looking at the photos, it was nutty. 20,000 people in one place is a lot of people. I just cant see that many piling into Glen Helen. So how do you pack it on race day? Shorten the entertainment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN7nSiTm-r4
It wouldnt let me embed this. But that is more people then I have seen at any West Coast National. It is THICK with people.
JustMX
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JustMX 5/11/2008 5:43pm
5/11/2008 5:43pm
Want to make tv better?

How about this, The top 5 in points in each class have to wear tv cameras.

Just tie it in with all the perks the top riders in the points get, like not having to run the qualifiers, except this would be a responsibility they would have to do.

Imagine those shots....

mx918
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mx918 5/11/2008 5:48pm
5/11/2008 5:48pm
Rest Easy fellas... thie is from RacerHead on RACER X.


"Next, before we get into a whole bunch of interesting events from last weekend, I would like to squash the rumor that started on DMXS Radio when David Bailey inadvertently mentioned something about the outdoor nationals going to a one-moto format in 2009. That is absolutely not true; it was just one of many, many things thrown out there in discussions about the future of the series, live TV, etc. Rest assured the AMA Toyota Motocross Championship will be running two motos in 2009, and likely for a long time to come."


If someone already posted this within this topic...my bad
wpcjs
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wpcjs 5/11/2008 6:11pm
5/11/2008 6:11pm
My .02:

1 I will never go to a one format MX, gave up on the SX show a few years ago, a 15 min sprint.

2 Do not let the # of cars kid you, Wrigley field sells out every game and does not have a parking lot.

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