Helmet Safety Question

[quote="flarider":bqkz6bhv]This is probably the best thing I have ever read regarding motorcycle helmets.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearb ... et_review/
It's very accurate and unbiased.[/quote:bqkz6bhv]

It's a good article. I mustered quite a bit of information from this article and some studies for some posts awhile back, but I suspect it is long gone and would have to be assembled again.

The gist of it is that off road motorcyclists are using helmets not designed for this use, and tested by standards that are tailored to difference uses, which are crude at best, and which likely lead to a high incidence of concussions as the trade off for protection against massive hits that most dirt riders would never experience. The standards have not been adapted to real-world off road use or to modern knowledge about the consequences of concussions/closed-head injuries.

[quote="Rallendude":151j9874]

Anyone else noticed a lot of the high profile riders, after a couple hard jolts to the noggin, switch to Arai helmets and put their sponsor sticker on the lid? A couple of note lately, Pastrana, and Hepler. If I'm not mistaken those guys bought those helmets as well. I'm thinking even KW buys his Arais. I don't know of any other helmets that sponsored riders switch to mid-season and cover with their own sponsor stickers.[/quote:151j9874]
I doubt KW buys his own Arais. But yeah the Hepler was kinda interesting seeing his Arai with a HJC sticker, and I never really knew what happened with TP.

[quote="Rallendude":2eu45x6z][quote="flarider":2eu45x6z]This is probably the best thing I have ever read regarding motorcycle helmets.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearb ... et_review/
It's very accurate and unbiased.[/quote:2eu45x6z]

Dave, I was told by my TR rep that the article you have posted was not exactly un-biased. The story I was told was that the people who wrote that article were actually trying to become THE independent testing laboratory that all the helmet manufacturers used to get their ratings, such as snell or dot. I was told that they didn't get the nod for one reason or another and that the article was written by them sort of as a way to get back at the helmet industry. There are some valid points there but I still think that people need to know about where their information comes from.

Apparently, this was covered in a Tucker Rocker/Arai dealer training seminar of some sort. All of the TR guys I've talked to spoke the same type info. All good info, about the Arai helmets. I have worn lots of different helmets and the Arai is the best in my opinion.

Anyone else noticed a lot of the high profile riders, after a couple hard jolts to the noggin, switch to Arai helmets and put their sponsor sticker on the lid? A couple of note lately, Pastrana, and Hepler. If I'm not mistaken those guys bought those helmets as well. I'm thinking even KW buys his Arais. I don't know of any other helmets that sponsored riders switch to mid-season and cover with their own sponsor stickers.[/quote:2eu45x6z]
What do you really expect your TR rep to tell you.
He's trying to sell you his most expensive helmet.

I get dealer cost on fly and 661 helmets through my grandpa who is a western powersports dealer. The wway i figure it, a helmet (any helmet $100-$600) are only good for one knock before theyre toast. any time I take a shot to the head i pull the cheek pads, headliner, and visor and screws if theyre salvageable, and order up a new one. I dont feel i could do that if i were wearing a $600 helmet just for the fact that if you do that theres $600 in the trash can.

there is a reason that expensive helmets are expensive. it's not because of a name just because they can get top dollar because it says something on it.

you are paying for light weight, ventilation, and cool graphics. but you are also paying for safety. a lighter helmet is going to protect you better in an accident (the force that moves your head around if you go down) as well as being more comfortable. one big difference between an inexpensive helmet and a higher end helmet is the shell materials. All of the "high end" helmets (lets just say over $200) are usually some sort of fiberglass/composite shell. this is better than a polycarbonate shell (plastic) because it speads out the impact over a greater area. Hit a shell w/ a hammer and it spreads out the impact over a greater area. with a plastic shell, you have the impact concentrated just in that spot.

pretty much all helmets for motorsports these days use an EPS liner (expanded polystyrene). pretty much a cooler on your head with a nice shell. " title="Smile"> but there are different grades and densities of EPS. harder density speads out impact better. softer density absorbs more impact forces. some helmets use a combination (dual density). shoei has a patented dual layer that's harder on the outside and softer on the inside. makes sense to me. some use harder on the inside and softer on the outside to say they have "dual density". some just have single density EPS. then you have a liner. that will absorb some impact as well but it's mainly a comfort thing.

I've used a lot of helmet over the years. after doing a bunch of road racing and going thru a few helmets, I've had a chance to try out a few. My current street lid is a Shoei X11. nothing else like it for venting, comfort and safety. I've had some polycarbonate helmets for dirt because of the cost but after a big digger a few months ago where I probably got a nice concussion, I bought a Shoei dirt helmet. I like my brain the way it is, thank you very much. Most companies make polycarbonate and composite helmets (KBC and HJC are the main two manufacturers that make a lot of other companies helmets) while some only make composite (Arai, Shoei, and AGV that I know of).

as for the magazine article in Motorcyclist, it was more of an effort to get the industry to think about standards. but if you look at the editors of the magazines, what do you think they wear day in day out? high end helmets for the most part. the top performing helmet in the test literally was a Pep Boys $60 DOT legal helmet. no thanks. use your head. if you need something to make you feel better about a cheap helmet, then go by the article and buy your helmet at Pep Boys.

the other thing that they didn't talk about in the article much is the fact that the standards are for a certain maximum limit that they have to meet. Let's just say the max is 1g of force that it will transfer to the noggin. Well that's great and you can argue all day that it's too high, but just because you have 4 helmets that all "meet the standard" of impact force of less than 1g, doesn't mean they all register at 1g. One helmet may register .98g, another may register .4g. Which do you think is going to be better? it' all depends but in general, you want something that will absorb big and small impacts. for a price you can have your cake and eat it too. Do i think they need to lower the impact figures for the off road helmets (vs. using a street standard?)- yes! But then you have to consider what type of impact is usual for off road helmets. for some it's casing a big triple (blunt force trauma). for me it's hitting a tree in the woods. hard to say which is more "real" and what testing method will work best, but overall buy a helmet that's got a good composite shell, good EPS, and most importantly, great fit. if you can't spring for the latest graphics, buy last years for a steep discount. you can find plenty of Shoei and Arai's out there in last years graphics for a nice price. its worth it.

ok, enough from me. I used to work in another industry for a helmet manufacturer, so i've been around the US and Euro standards a lot (climbing, caving, and high angle rescue/NFPA/tactical stuff). it'll give you a headache. " title="Smile">

[quote="APLMAN":3k7u3orx][quote="rightseat":3k7u3orx]I've cracked two fox helmets. Both were similar temple area cracks, similar fall, nothing major. I'd shell out the extra dough for a Shoei or Arai.[/quote:3k7u3orx]


Those cracks might have saved your life!!!!!!![/quote:3k7u3orx]
Oh I know! I guess I should have worded it differently. I tried to 'get by' with a less expensive helmet. The helmets did their jobs. Now have no problem shelling out big coin for a nice lid. As much as I seem to find the ground while riding, I need all the help I can get.

[quote="zookrider62":193qahyz][quote="Rallendude":193qahyz]

Anyone else noticed a lot of the high profile riders, after a couple hard jolts to the noggin, switch to Arai helmets and put their sponsor sticker on the lid? A couple of note lately, Pastrana, and Hepler. If I'm not mistaken those guys bought those helmets as well. I'm thinking even KW buys his Arais. I don't know of any other helmets that sponsored riders switch to mid-season and cover with their own sponsor stickers.[/quote:193qahyz]
I doubt KW buys his own Arais. But yeah the Hepler was kinda interesting seeing his Arai with a HJC sticker, and I never really knew what happened with TP.[/quote:193qahyz]

I don't think they actually buy their own lids but what they do is turn down sponsor cash to wear something else. It is my understanding that Pastrana is not sponsored by Arai but he gets helmets from them. I was told at one of those Arai seminars that from a business standpoint he may be considered damaged goods (because of all the concussions). Windham and Millsaps may be the only Arai paid motocross riders (they also have their own replica line).

[quote="nomad15":335ydv1t][quote="Rallendude":335ydv1t][quote="flarider":335ydv1t]This is probably the best thing I have ever read regarding motorcycle helmets.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearb ... et_review/
It's very accurate and unbiased.[/quote:335ydv1t]

Dave, I was told by my TR rep that the article you have posted was not exactly un-biased. The story I was told was that the people who wrote that article were actually trying to become THE independent testing laboratory that all the helmet manufacturers used to get their ratings, such as snell or dot. I was told that they didn't get the nod for one reason or another and that the article was written by them sort of as a way to get back at the helmet industry. There are some valid points there but I still think that people need to know about where their information comes from.

Apparently, this was covered in a Tucker Rocker/Arai dealer training seminar of some sort. All of the TR guys I've talked to spoke the same type info. All good info, about the Arai helmets. I have worn lots of different helmets and the Arai is the best in my opinion.

Anyone else noticed a lot of the high profile riders, after a couple hard jolts to the noggin, switch to Arai helmets and put their sponsor sticker on the lid? A couple of note lately, Pastrana, and Hepler. If I'm not mistaken those guys bought those helmets as well. I'm thinking even KW buys his Arais. I don't know of any other helmets that sponsored riders switch to mid-season and cover with their own sponsor stickers.[/quote:335ydv1t]
[b:335ydv1t]What do you really expect your TR rep to tell you.
He's trying to sell you his most expensive helmet[/b:335ydv1t].[/quote:335ydv1t]

That's not entirely true. Most of the time you don't make as much money on the most expensive helmet. The cheap ones have much larger margins.

[quote:t64755cq]
[b:t64755cq]What do you really expect your TR rep to tell you.
He's trying to sell you his most expensive helmet[/b:t64755cq].

That's not entirely true. Most of the time you don't make as much money on the most expensive helmet. The cheap ones have much larger margins.[/quote:t64755cq]

In my case, it wasn't true at all. I get my helmets from my TR dealer after he shows them all year at his cost. He made no money off me and he knew it giong in. All of this info was given to me, not as a saies pitch, but as safety info. We (the Motocross Safety Council) were gathering all sorts of information to try and build a comprehensive database on motocross safety. This info was about helmets so he told me what he could about the Arai product line. That article just happened to come up in the conversation.

[quote="rightseat":2lpkjt8i][quote="APLMAN":2lpkjt8i][quote="rightseat":2lpkjt8i]I've cracked two fox helmets. Both were similar temple area cracks, similar fall, nothing major. I'd shell out the extra dough for a Shoei or Arai.[/quote:2lpkjt8i]


Those cracks might have saved your life!!!!!!![/quote:2lpkjt8i]
Oh I know! I guess I should have worded it differently. I tried to 'get by' with a less expensive helmet. The helmets did their jobs. Now have no problem shelling out big coin for a nice lid. As much as I seem to find the ground while riding, I need all the help I can get.[/quote:2lpkjt8i]


But if that "nice lid" you are paying "big coin" for doesn't break as easily as the less expensive ones, is that a good thing?

[quote="APLMAN":21nvgb7l]
But if that "nice lid" you are paying "big coin" for doesn't break as easily as the less expensive ones, is that a good thing?[/quote:21nvgb7l]

I would say it depends wether or not that expensive lid performed the way it was designed or not. Sound design and engineering doesn't mean shit if the product does not perform the same way.

There is no SAFETY difference between a high cost DOT/SNELL/ECE/Whatever you want standard rated helmet and a lower cost DOT/SNELL/ECE/Whatever you want standard. That's why it's a standard.

Show me some info on why a $500 Shoei is "SAFER" than a HJC $150 helmet. You can't. So whatever you come up with is wishful thinking. The only way to compare them is by testing standards. Just because high priced helmet A protected a riders head in this accident, doesn't mean that low priced helmet B wouldn't have protected the riders head in the same way.

[quote="jbomx363":e47ioqhh]There is no SAFETY difference between a high cost DOT/SNELL/ECE/Whatever you want standard rated helmet and a lower cost DOT/SNELL/ECE/Whatever you want standard. That's why it's a standard.

Show me some info on why a $500 Shoei is "SAFER" than a HJC $150 helmet. You can't. So whatever you come up with is wishful thinking. The only way to compare them is by testing standards. Just because high priced helmet A protected a riders head in this accident, doesn't mean that low priced helmet B wouldn't have protected the riders head in the same way.[/quote:e47ioqhh]


Actually, there could be wide safety differences between the two, although the lower priced one might be safer in a particular instance, the higher priced one safer in another.....

[quote="jbomx363":1027wjk5]There is no SAFETY difference between a high cost DOT/SNELL/ECE/Whatever you want standard rated helmet and a lower cost DOT/SNELL/ECE/Whatever you want standard. That's why it's a standard.

Show me some info on why a $500 Shoei is "SAFER" than a HJC $150 helmet. You can't. So whatever you come up with is wishful thinking. The only way to compare them is by testing standards. Just because high priced helmet A protected a riders head in this accident, doesn't mean that low priced helmet B wouldn't have protected the riders head in the same way.[/quote:1027wjk5]

Talk to Snell and they will tell you that every helmet performs differently. It's all a matter of how much force is transferred to the brain during an impact. During testing, a helmet can squeak by with a result that barely meets Snells criteria and it will receive the Snell certification. Other helmets may pass with a much lower force transferred during the test. When the head of Snell was put on the spot and asked what helmet he would buy for his 17 year old racer son, he said Arai or Shoei. That tells you something.

I don't know if anything has changed with their helmets in the last five years but I can tell you I will never wear a KBC helmet again. My only concussion happened while wearing a KBC. I was hit in the head by another bike while I was on the ground and received a grade II concussion. I took a hard lick and I had memory loss for about 10 minutes and felt weird for another week afterwards. Why won't I wear another KBC? Because even though I took a very hard hit that resulted in a concussion, upon inspection of the helmet the inner EPS foam in the helmet didn't give at all. The EPS foam was waaaay too stiff and transfered all the force to my head.

If it's not an Arai, Shoei or one off the European ECE/BSI approved helmets, I won't wear it.

Some people mentioned KW and TP switching helmet brands for safety reasons. What about a recent article with Grant Langston (i think it was in MXA) where he said he switched to Bell helmets based on the fact that they were a safer helmet, at least that was his opinion. He said he was doing his own research on helmets and saw that Bell was one of the best if i remember clearly, and he also said something about his sister asking him to where the best helmet since she lost a close friend in a motocross accident and he promised her that he would, and so he switched to Bell.

[quote="Rallendude":3q7e1yir][quote:3q7e1yir]
[b:3q7e1yir]What do you really expect your TR rep to tell you.
He's trying to sell you his most expensive helmet[/b:3q7e1yir].

That's not entirely true. Most of the time you don't make as much money on the most expensive helmet. The cheap ones have much larger margins.[/quote:3q7e1yir]With the aria and shoei the margins are very good.I speak from experience as a former parts
manager.

In my case, it wasn't true at all. I get my helmets from my TR dealer after he shows them all year at his cost. He made no money off me and he knew it giong in. All of this info was given to me, not as a saies pitch, but as safety info. We (the Motocross Safety Council) were gathering all sorts of information to try and build a comprehensive database on motocross safety. This info was about helmets so he told me what he could about the Arai product line. That article just happened to come up in the conversation.[/quote:3q7e1yir]
Of course it was a sales pitch, if he convinces you(the motocross safety council) the aria is the best helmet and you back that.
He sells more aria helmets. Thus,more money in his pocket. Wouldn't him given you helmets at his cost for personal use be a total conflict of interest? Seeing as you are (the motocross safety council).

[quote:tt6s1cg4]When the head of Snell was put on the spot and asked what helmet he would buy for his 17 year old racer son, he said Arai or Shoei. That tells you something.
[/quote:tt6s1cg4]

You know what that really tells me? That SNELL must be fooling the public into thinking that any helmet that bares their certification is a safe helmet. It's a pass/fail standard. Maybe they should change their standards to include other types of testing to weed out these so called squeaker by helmets.

ALL those poor $150 helmeted riders are going to be jamming up the ER's in no time.

And I don't care about anecdotal stories. They mean nothing. You don't know if you had on a Shoei in your crash if you wouldn't have had the same results or not. Just as if I told my story about wearing a Bieffe helmet years ago, got slammed down after clipping a triple and I had no concussion. Does this prove that Bieffe was the best?

An unending argument.

[quote="jbomx363":1k86kxe8]

And I don't care about anecdotal stories. They mean nothing. You don't know if you had on a Shoei in your crash if you wouldn't have had the same results or not. Just as if I told my story about wearing a Bieffe helmet years ago, got slammed down after clipping a triple and I had no concussion. Does this prove that Bieffe was the best?

An unending argument.[/quote:1k86kxe8]

Holy crap i forgot about Bieffe!! Wow that brings back some memories from the good old days, you actually spoke a little history there man.

[quote="jbomx363":z8gal8v7]

And I don't care about anecdotal stories. They mean nothing. You don't know if you had on a Shoei in your crash if you wouldn't have had the same results or not.[/quote:z8gal8v7]

It means something to me. I feel that I shouldn't have been as seriously injured as I was, given the fact that the KBC helmet's EPS didn't yield like it was designed to.

You are free to draw your own conclusions but I guarantee you one thing, all helmets are not created equally.

Prove that one is more safer than another and I'd be happy to agree with you. Wait... there is a standard test that is supposed to do that so that we know the helmet we are buying is "safe" right?

Shouldn't the consumer assume that if helmet a and helmet b passes the same standards that it offers up the same protectability? I believe those standards should project that to the consumer. How else is one to judge whether or not he is buying Johnny GoFast good protection? Price alone? Take (insert riders name here) word that this one is better because?

Maybe the helmet industry needs to change the pass/fail standard and move to a rating system instead? Maybe different testing standards should be implemented? Until that's done, Mr. Public can't choose which is "best.

I totally understand what ya'll are trying to convey.

I think people forget what kind of helmet TP wore for years that he got most of his concusions in

[quote="jbomx363":3qehj931]Prove that one is more safer than another and I'd be happy to agree with you. Wait... there is a standard test that is supposed to do that so that we know the helmet we are buying is "safe" right?

Shouldn't the consumer assume that if helmet a and helmet b passes the same standards that it offers up the same protectability? I believe those standards should project that to the consumer. How else is one to judge whether or not he is buying Johnny GoFast good protection? Price alone? Take (insert riders name here) word that this one is better because?

Maybe the helmet industry needs to change the pass/fail standard and move to a rating system instead? Maybe different testing standards should be implemented? Until that's done, Mr. Public can't choose which is "best.

I totally understand what ya'll are trying to convey.[/quote:3qehj931]

The problem with the testing standards is that they are designed for road collisions. Both DOT and Snell certifications, as well as the EU certifications, require the helmet to withstand severe impacts from heavy, sharp objects. This is appropriate if your goal is to prevent intrusion of objects like street sign poles, curbs, car bumpers, etc. into the shell of the helmet.

The current safety standards testing measures nothing that really has to do with force dissipation and avoidance of too much force transfer to the brain.

The basic meaning of the tests which purport to show that lower-priced DOT helmets protect from brain injury better than expensive Snell and higher certified helmets is that when the helmet is built stiff and strong to pass the high impact tests those standards require, it necessarily transfers a greater proportion of the impact directly to the wearer.

It's been mentioned in other hlemet threads before, but motocross has very different collision characteristics than street biking or automobile racing, all of which share the same helmet standards testing. At this time, nobody has undertaken to measure what happens in MX crashes, and there is no standard by which MX helmets can be built.

Snell uses flat also. Isn't that how most MX head plants are? On flat surfaces? The "standard" is that any force on those 6 devices can't exceed 300G's for Snell.

And I agree.. hopefully some certification facility will actually do mx specific testing and devise standards just for that. But in the mean time....it is what it is. That's the certification that is on the MX helmets now.

If the general consumer is supposed to judge which is better on price alone... then why wouldn't a helmet manuf. just charge out the wazooo for all their helmets so that they can boast they have the safest product available?

[quote="jbomx363":21e9i7ga]

If the general consumer is supposed to judge which is better on price alone... then why wouldn't a helmet manuf. just charge out the wazooo for all their helmets so that they can boast they have the safest product available?[/quote:21e9i7ga]
They do. Thats why Arai and Shoei are always called "the best" and have such a loyal following. Theyre 200-350$ more then most helmets, and they have a religious following almost. Maybe they are the best, or maybe its because theyre the most expensive. I dont know the real answer

[quote="floridaflash":3s5jlobn]I think people forget what kind of helmet TP wore for years that he got most of his concusions in[/quote:3s5jlobn]


I don't think they do, they just know that TP was bound and determined to get himself hurt and there isn't a helmet made that could have completely stopped that.......

[quote="nomad15":38oydh2r][quote="Rallendude":38oydh2r][quote:38oydh2r]
[b:38oydh2r]What do you really expect your TR rep to tell you.
He's trying to sell you his most expensive helmet[/b:38oydh2r].

That's not entirely true. Most of the time you don't make as much money on the most expensive helmet. The cheap ones have much larger margins.[/quote:38oydh2r]With the aria and shoei the margins are very good.I speak from experience as a former parts
manager.

In my case, it wasn't true at all. I get my helmets from my TR dealer after he shows them all year at his cost. He made no money off me and he knew it giong in. All of this info was given to me, not as a saies pitch, but as safety info. We (the Motocross Safety Council) were gathering all sorts of information to try and build a comprehensive database on motocross safety. This info was about helmets so he told me what he could about the Arai product line. That article just happened to come up in the conversation.[/quote:38oydh2r]
Of course it was a sales pitch, if he convinces you(the motocross safety council) the aria is the best helmet and you back that.
He sells more aria helmets. Thus,more money in his pocket. Wouldn't him given you helmets at his cost for personal use be a total conflict of interest? Seeing as you are (the motocross safety council).[/quote:38oydh2r]

Wrong again. The Motocross Safety Council doesn't endorse any helmet manufacturers, or other equipment manufacturers. Guess why. Conflict of interest. We do, however, look into lots of different safety aspects and suggest that all riders wear Snell AND Dot rated helmets.

PS - This research and "sales pitch" was done before the MSC was officially in existence.

Apparently, this was covered in a Tucker Rocker/Arai dealer training seminar of some sort. All of the TR guys I've talked to spoke the same type info. All good info, about the Arai helmets. I have worn lots of different helmets and the Arai is the best in my opinion.

Anyone else noticed a lot of the high profile riders, after a couple hard jolts to the noggin, switch to Arai helmets and put their sponsor sticker on the lid? A couple of note lately, Pastrana, and Hepler. If I'm not mistaken those guys bought those helmets as well. I'm thinking even KW buys his Arais. I don't know of any other helmets that sponsored riders switch to mid-season and cover with their own sponsor stickers.Rallendude

I thought you said you didnt endorse any specific helmet.
your quote above says otherwise.
You even have a pic of the aria on your website...
the only pic of a helmet on your website....
BTW what exactly is ultra-hazardous

Couple things I would never A. wear a helmet with the name biffy . 2. If you pay 5-600.00 for a helmet you will really try to not be hitting your head on the ground so much .