What is the point

Crush
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Edited Date/Time 3/16/2016 8:57am
of 450s in SX?

Beat a dead horse. Sure. But still. WTF.

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philG
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3/14/2016 4:38pm
So men can ride them.
TeamGreen
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3/14/2016 4:55pm
No picture por mi!
Crush
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3/14/2016 5:02pm
Click the link where it says
1st day back riding SX was a success

The Shop

Falcon
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3/14/2016 5:07pm
So you can bust big QUADS like that one.
Dtat720
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3/14/2016 5:07pm
Cooper triple quads on the 250. I think KDub said it best several years ago talking about it. It isnt any fun when you can finish top 5 never shifting for 20 laps.
TeamGreen
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3/14/2016 5:09pm
Personally

I love watching Super-Coop riding the FoFiddy
Crush
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3/14/2016 5:16pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Personally

I love watching Super-Coop riding the FoFiddy
That's his 250.
JW381
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3/14/2016 5:25pm
I agree. I would never say the skill is gone, but they don't have to shift, don't have to clutch, they have traction for days and they can do all the jumps from virtually any line thru a corner. I echo your sentiment, what's the point? I was so excited at the start of the 450 main. Then they fell into the follow the leader game and it fizzled out. It happens more frequently than it used to, from what I remember.
hillbilly
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3/14/2016 6:18pm
Crush wrote:
of 450s in SX?

Beat a dead horse. Sure. But still. WTF.

I know,I've always said limit them to 650 cc single or 600cc twins.
TeamGreen
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3/14/2016 7:05pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Personally

I love watching Super-Coop riding the FoFiddy
Crush wrote:
That's his 250.
And I love watching him on the FoFiddy...

Even faster...smoother
Crush
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3/14/2016 7:29pm
Sorry Green, mis-read then.

I don't know man. To me, watching the riders have to really push, and also hearing them push, is way more exciting than watching the 450 guys idle around with no body english and jump everything.

Watch this heat with James and Chad going batshit...

https://youtu.be/dqtbCghu4Ig
The Rock
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3/14/2016 10:25pm
450s need to go away in SX I agree.

Make the 450 class the 250 premier class where PC Geico and factory teams compete. This is the class for the existing 450 guys and the 250 lifers.

Make the existing 250 east west series a true development class with either claiming rules or stock motors. Suspension and exhaust are the only mods allowed
3/14/2016 10:40pm
Crush wrote:
Sorry Green, mis-read then. I don't know man. To me, watching the riders have to really push, and also hearing them push, is way more exciting...
Sorry Green, mis-read then.

I don't know man. To me, watching the riders have to really push, and also hearing them push, is way more exciting than watching the 450 guys idle around with no body english and jump everything.

Watch this heat with James and Chad going batshit...

https://youtu.be/dqtbCghu4Ig
That was awesome!! Makes me miss the old racing and 2 strokes even more Sad
kiwifan
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3/14/2016 10:52pm


c_dub
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3/15/2016 12:13am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
That was awesome!! Makes me miss the old racing and 2 strokes even more Sad
Agreed!
Spydee
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3/15/2016 12:43am
Athletes of their level yeah you're right, the 450 is pretty pointless as it eliminates most of the mistakes because of the mass amount of power under their arses. Though the bore fo the 450's has made the 250 racing way more exciting these past few years. I look forward to seeing the 250 boys race rather than the 450's now.
Crush
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3/15/2016 12:50am
The Rock wrote:
450s need to go away in SX I agree. Make the 450 class the 250 premier class where PC Geico and factory teams compete. This is...
450s need to go away in SX I agree.

Make the 450 class the 250 premier class where PC Geico and factory teams compete. This is the class for the existing 450 guys and the 250 lifers.

Make the existing 250 east west series a true development class with either claiming rules or stock motors. Suspension and exhaust are the only mods allowed
Better yet, 250 four stroke class is premier - best racing, obviously capable and still suited to stadiums where 450s have outgrown it.

Then make the development class and all amateur racing 2 strokes only. 125 is pro. Cheaper across the grass roots of the sport and for the entry level teams. Marketable engine difference. Better racing all around.
Crush
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3/15/2016 1:04am
Spydee wrote:
Athletes of their level yeah you're right, the 450 is pretty pointless as it eliminates most of the mistakes because of the mass amount of power...
Athletes of their level yeah you're right, the 450 is pretty pointless as it eliminates most of the mistakes because of the mass amount of power under their arses. Though the bore fo the 450's has made the 250 racing way more exciting these past few years. I look forward to seeing the 250 boys race rather than the 450's now.
Yep. 250 class has been better to watch forever... Think about those epic RV/JLaw/Dungey/Canard/Metcalfe/Grant years in the 250 class, indoors and out.... Crazy.

In the 450 class right now we have a wealth of talent on a bike that is sooooo forgiving, mistakes are basically nil, the bikes can't be challenged indoors because they're so fast, so they dumb the tracks down, it's harder to pass and we find ourselves in a situation where it's all on the start... And Dungey has murdered them here and has held a race lead since almost a 1/3rd into the series.

Think about it. Kenny, Eli, Cole, Reed, Trey, Anderson, Marvin, Davi... All shown race winning speed and an ability to hold their position. Have their best results correlated with their respective best starts? Yes. Yes they have.

450s have pretty much ruined SX.
philG
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3/15/2016 1:07am
Cost of racing a 250 is huge.. Gajser had to practice on a 450 because HRC couldn't get a bike to hold together long enough to practice.

Plus , can you imagine Millsaps , Peick , Schmidt etc on a 250.

Totally pointless .
Crush
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3/15/2016 2:20am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2016 2:26am
philG wrote:
Cost of racing a 250 is huge.. Gajser had to practice on a 450 because HRC couldn't get a bike to hold together long enough to...
Cost of racing a 250 is huge.. Gajser had to practice on a 450 because HRC couldn't get a bike to hold together long enough to practice.

Plus , can you imagine Millsaps , Peick , Schmidt etc on a 250.

Totally pointless .
So your point is a 250 team needed to practice a 450 because it was too expensive? So why force the rest of the amateur industry and the majority of teams (By definition there are more 250 teams) to ride them!

Wouldn't it make sense that the biggest budgeted teams bare that cost and the rest of the industry ride something more affordable? Maybe lessen the barriers to entry into such an expensive sport?

The 125 class produced some of the greatest racing the sport ever saw... and size? Millsaps was fast on a 125. Preston, Windham and Lechien won on a 125. Gimme a break with the Peick shit, he's 5'9" and not bigger than Bowers or Mookie who rip on a 250.

Coopers bike supposedly makes 55hp. Even if that's wild and it's actually 50, MC's 97 Suzuki was 50. It's more than enough... And more to the point, the racing in 450s suffers, they're too much bike for the stadiums or what can be jumped safely and accomodate for good racing.
VET176
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3/15/2016 2:50am
So...if the top 250 teams bikes make 50HP (or more), then why is it such a bad idea to allow poorer teams to race 250 2 strokes against them?





Crush
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3/15/2016 3:52am
VET176 wrote:
So...if the top 250 teams bikes make 50HP (or more), then why is it such a bad idea to allow poorer teams to race 250 2...
So...if the top 250 teams bikes make 50HP (or more), then why is it such a bad idea to allow poorer teams to race 250 2 strokes against them?





It's not, it works fine down here! The four strokes need more $ to make that figure but that's another argument.
philG
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3/15/2016 6:27am
The difference between a modern 250 4 banger making 50bhp ,and a 250 2t making 50bhp is huge..

top 250F motors do 5 hours, 5 freaking hours .. Nick Shmidt probably has pipe and ignition and a cam , and the thing would do an SX series without having the top off.


I don't see the point of having a bike that will do the job , with little more than set up , and throwing it away to use one that costs 4 times as much to build, and lasts 1/4 of the time.

Steve125
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3/15/2016 7:18am
Bring on the Quints? I can't imagine what they'll be doing in years to come. Hard to pass when the bike spends most of it's time in the air. Time for 250 4T premier,(so they can save face for the whole 4T movement), and 125 2T support class. Hear that OEMs?
aFACEdismembered
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3/15/2016 8:35am
I think they need to look at the 4 strokes and 2 strokes the way that endurance racing has with diesel and gas. They can play together, regulations just need to be made to equal them out. Max revs, HP, fuel capacity, etc. There's enough you can do to a motor to find parity. There's more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. I don't want to enter that rabbit hole though and it doesn't sound like the manufacturers want to either.
Titan1
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3/15/2016 9:07am
Seems a bunch of people argue against the 450's because they are so easy to ride (no shifting, no clutch, jump anything from anywhere, so much power etc).....and then there is an equal number of people who argue against them because they are hard to ride, and only a few riders in the world can ride them to their potential, and they dominate everyone.

Which is it?

Because supercross and motocross is so much about the rider...it doesn't matter if they are on 2 strokes or 4 strokes, 450's, 250's, or 125's...there is always going to be a few riders that are just way better than everyone else. Those 250 two strokes didn't stop McGrath from gapping the field every race and being able to win no matter where he started, or RC from doing the same...or RC/JS/Reed from lapping up to nearly the top 5 win a 30-45 second gap over 4th place...and even on a 250 4 stroke Jeremy Martin came from nearly last to 2nd in 7 laps last weekend, while Hill disappeared and won by almost 30 seconds.

Good racing, in my opinion, has more to do with the track than what bike they are riding.
JustMX
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3/15/2016 10:37am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2016 10:43am
Watching 450s on a sx track is like watching Indy cars on a go cart track.

The racing is so boring COMPARED to what it once was, even the announcers have a hard time handling it. To the point that the spend an entire 450 portion of the tv broadcast th dungey's podium streak. Even dungey was tired of hearing that crap.

I weep for new fans that think most of what we have seen this year is anything that resembles "awesome" racing.
yzjs7
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3/15/2016 11:33am
2 strokes made for better racing hands down.
JW381
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3/15/2016 12:01pm
These threads are so frustrating because it seems like common sense. Yet change never seems to come. 450s in SX need to be 10-6'd

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