Full Tilt CR250 Build - MXA Two Stroke Hall of Fame

blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/15/2016 1:17pm
2/15/2016 1:17pm
Underground wrote:
What needle did you run and are you running?
I used a JD Jetting red with the needle in the 4th from the top as a starting point.
oppenheimer77us 2/15/2016 1:23pm
2/15/2016 1:23pm
This build is amazing, so sweet. I'm currently building and riding a 2006 CR250R and your bike is what my bike wants to be when it grows up. Can't wait to see the finished bike.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/16/2016 6:27am
2/16/2016 6:27am
nytsmaC wrote:
Good call on the adjuster and steering damper, They're not heavy but those little things add up. The stock Honda triple clamps aren't light, those X-trig...
Good call on the adjuster and steering damper, They're not heavy but those little things add up. The stock Honda triple clamps aren't light, those X-trig ones are probably close to a pound lighter if they're as light as the two aftermarket billet sets I've weighed. They look fairly sleak and minimalistic.

Use Bikemaster non-HD tubes, they're very light at close to 1lb each. Some guys have even begun using mountain bike tubes (26" for fat tire bikes), which seem to be working okay and they as a pair weigh close to a pound lighter than the lightest motorcycle tubes.
Motion Pro Liteloc rim locks, Motion Pro rim strips, Pirelli MXMS tires (110/85-19 rear is super light, and lets you go down 1 tooth on the rear sprocket). Stock Honda wheels will be lighter than anything aftermarket, get the hubs lathed and polished or anodized. Talon rear sprocket, Sunline MXMR chain, OEM front sprocket, CRFstuff rotors, and you will have the lightest wheel set possible.

OEM Honda plastic is lighter than anything aftmarket too, with the exception of the Cycra stadium front number plate and vented front fender. If you insist on a graphics kit get it printed on 4mm vinyl.

It will be possible to get that bike under 200lbs but you will have to be very careful of parts selection and not adding anything extra on that isn't absolutely neccessary like disc/caliper guards, twinwall bars, etc. Air forks would make things a lot easier for you, KYB sells the PSF1 works forks which are what most of the factory racers seem to be currently using. Go over the bike with a fine tooth comb and remove anything that doesn't have to be on there. Many little things add up. Use aluminum hardware where possible, it's lighter than titanium.

The new NEXT unbreakable clutch perch assembly and front brake lever are the lightest on the market, too, if you plan to go non-OEM.

I assume that you already know a lot of this stuff but just sharing what I've found with my own lightweight CR250.
Sounds like a fun project, can't wait to see the finished product!
I checked into the NEXT clutch perch assembly but after realizing it does not offer a bearing in the pivot I killed that idea quickly. I will most likely run a Sunline SL4 with a standard lever. I have used these perches in the past and they are extremely smooth and linear. Good call on the rim strips, they are approximately 25 grams lighter per wheel than a 1" strip of Gorilla Tape and appear to be quite tough as well.
MadsDausel 2/17/2016 3:51pm
2/17/2016 3:51pm
Is the sm pro rims lighter then other rims on the market???

The Shop

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blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/17/2016 4:01pm
2/17/2016 4:01pm
I believe them to be ever so slightly lighter but I can't honestly say I weighed them back to back with anything else.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/25/2016 2:13am
2/25/2016 2:13am
Here is an update on the electronic parts and mounting brackets that a few people requested. I totally went back to the drawing board and moved the Ignition box back to the airbox area because of ease of access and programming and mounted a few miscellaneous parts from the head-stay. This is completely opposite of what I had originally planned. These pics are of the coil mounting and regulator for the servo and I will have the airbox mount for the ignition and map switches finished tomorrow and I will post it at that time.









ocscottie
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ocscottie 2/25/2016 2:39am
2/25/2016 2:39am
mmmmm yummy! More CF!! Cool

Hey you know what would be awesome? if you took all the pics and put them in your vital profile in an album, its a pain in the ass to go through all the pages to see the photos, just a thought someday when you have some spare time.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/25/2016 10:34am
2/25/2016 10:34am
I can try but that sounds like a big project? I should have this thing in the dirt in the next few days so the thread will be finished soon.



Reefer Sutherland 2/25/2016 10:41am
2/25/2016 10:41am
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK, until HRC showed him the dyno sheets. They came with an S8 nozzle which is too big, the HRC set-up was an S7 with a rifle bore, mated with a hogged out intake boot.
JW381
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JW381 2/25/2016 10:48am
2/25/2016 10:48am Edited Date/Time 2/25/2016 10:49am
Underground wrote:
What needle did you run and are you running?
blackdiamond wrote:
I used a JD Jetting red with the needle in the 4th from the top as a starting point.
That seems awfully rich.

Edit: my post wasn't thorough enough. I'm not insinuating you're wrong. Its obvious you know what you're doing. I meant that more as a curious statement.
MR. X
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MR. X 2/25/2016 11:17am
2/25/2016 11:17am
blackdiamond wrote:
I can try but that sounds like a big project? I should have this thing in the dirt in the next few days so the thread...
I can try but that sounds like a big project? I should have this thing in the dirt in the next few days so the thread will be finished soon.



With a video I hope ,the video of it running on the stand was pleasant but I wanna hear that thing rip with some load on it. Woohoo
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/25/2016 11:34am
2/25/2016 11:34am
JW381 wrote:
That seems awfully rich. Edit: my post wasn't thorough enough. I'm not insinuating you're wrong. Its obvious you know what you're doing. I meant that more...
That seems awfully rich.

Edit: my post wasn't thorough enough. I'm not insinuating you're wrong. Its obvious you know what you're doing. I meant that more as a curious statement.
It feels a bit fat in the middle as it is, I need to get it on the track and find out what the real deal is.
JW381
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JW381 2/25/2016 11:42am
2/25/2016 11:42am
JW381 wrote:
That seems awfully rich. Edit: my post wasn't thorough enough. I'm not insinuating you're wrong. Its obvious you know what you're doing. I meant that more...
That seems awfully rich.

Edit: my post wasn't thorough enough. I'm not insinuating you're wrong. Its obvious you know what you're doing. I meant that more as a curious statement.
blackdiamond wrote:
It feels a bit fat in the middle as it is, I need to get it on the track and find out what the real deal...
It feels a bit fat in the middle as it is, I need to get it on the track and find out what the real deal is.
I know every bike is different as well as conditions, but I run the red needle 2nd from the top. I'm sure you'll figure it out, cant wait to hear it pegged tilling up some loam!!
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/25/2016 11:42am
2/25/2016 11:42am Edited Date/Time 2/25/2016 6:48pm
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK...
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK, until HRC showed him the dyno sheets. They came with an S8 nozzle which is too big, the HRC set-up was an S7 with a rifle bore, mated with a hogged out intake boot.
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't as good. With that said, I haven't used one in 6 or 7 years so I can't remember all that clearly.
Reefer Sutherland 2/25/2016 11:54am
2/25/2016 11:54am
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK...
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK, until HRC showed him the dyno sheets. They came with an S8 nozzle which is too big, the HRC set-up was an S7 with a rifle bore, mated with a hogged out intake boot.
blackdiamond wrote:
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't...
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't as good. With that said, I haven't used one in 6 or 7 years so I can't remember all that clearly.
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong ones. you drop down one nozzle size, and all of a sudden that carb works great. i dunno, give it a shot if you have one laying around.

jet place in cleveland ohio (jets r us?) still makes those nozzles. they actually make jets there so theyll make you whatever you want. i used them for custom powerjet sizes. keihin only made a "55" powerjet for the later model PWKs that came on the suzukis and yamahas. i think i dropped down to a 52, which doesnt even exist, but they made one. been a couple years.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/25/2016 12:38pm
2/25/2016 12:38pm
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong...
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong ones. you drop down one nozzle size, and all of a sudden that carb works great. i dunno, give it a shot if you have one laying around.

jet place in cleveland ohio (jets r us?) still makes those nozzles. they actually make jets there so theyll make you whatever you want. i used them for custom powerjet sizes. keihin only made a "55" powerjet for the later model PWKs that came on the suzukis and yamahas. i think i dropped down to a 52, which doesnt even exist, but they made one. been a couple years.
What was the reasoning behind the powejet change?
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/25/2016 9:50pm
2/25/2016 9:50pm
I finished the bracket for the ignition mount in the airbox today. I decided to mount the switches for the power-valve map and the ignition map inside the airbox instead of cluttering up the handlebars. I just don't see the need for mid-moto map changes here in So-Cal when the tracks are perfectly prepped and watered 95% of the time.





blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/26/2016 3:26am
2/26/2016 3:26am Edited Date/Time 2/26/2016 1:34pm





Pit Row

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Underground 2/26/2016 4:33pm
2/26/2016 4:33pm
I'd cry getting that dirty and ratted
dbrunski125 2/26/2016 5:56pm
2/26/2016 5:56pm
blackdiamond wrote:
I can try but that sounds like a big project? I should have this thing in the dirt in the next few days so the thread...
I can try but that sounds like a big project? I should have this thing in the dirt in the next few days so the thread will be finished soon.



Thought you were going to run a ti spring?
ratonmacias
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ratonmacias 2/26/2016 8:00pm
2/26/2016 8:00pm
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK...
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK, until HRC showed him the dyno sheets. They came with an S8 nozzle which is too big, the HRC set-up was an S7 with a rifle bore, mated with a hogged out intake boot.
blackdiamond wrote:
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't...
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't as good. With that said, I haven't used one in 6 or 7 years so I can't remember all that clearly.
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong...
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong ones. you drop down one nozzle size, and all of a sudden that carb works great. i dunno, give it a shot if you have one laying around.

jet place in cleveland ohio (jets r us?) still makes those nozzles. they actually make jets there so theyll make you whatever you want. i used them for custom powerjet sizes. keihin only made a "55" powerjet for the later model PWKs that came on the suzukis and yamahas. i think i dropped down to a 52, which doesnt even exist, but they made one. been a couple years.
are you positive the nozzle in the 04 carb with tps is changeable? i tought that was possible on the long body mikunis of the 02 and 03 models.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/26/2016 8:04pm
2/26/2016 8:04pm
I am, we had a problem with the seal head leaking on the custom shock so I put the stock one on just so we could get the bike on its wheels. We have since fixed the issue with the seal and we're back in business with the custom shock.
FGR01
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FGR01 2/26/2016 8:59pm
2/26/2016 8:59pm
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong...
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong ones. you drop down one nozzle size, and all of a sudden that carb works great. i dunno, give it a shot if you have one laying around.

jet place in cleveland ohio (jets r us?) still makes those nozzles. they actually make jets there so theyll make you whatever you want. i used them for custom powerjet sizes. keihin only made a "55" powerjet for the later model PWKs that came on the suzukis and yamahas. i think i dropped down to a 52, which doesnt even exist, but they made one. been a couple years.
The jet used for the powerjet in the PWK carbs is the exact same jet used as the leak jet in the Keihin FCR carbs on 4-strokes. Keihin sells them in many different sizes but they are only steps of 5. I think I have 40-45-50-55-60-65-70 in my box. A custom 52 would basically split the difference between a 50 and a 55. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a 50 and a 52 so that is doing some serious fine tooth jetting.
JW381
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JW381 2/26/2016 9:27pm
2/26/2016 9:27pm
blackdiamond wrote:
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't...
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't as good. With that said, I haven't used one in 6 or 7 years so I can't remember all that clearly.
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong...
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong ones. you drop down one nozzle size, and all of a sudden that carb works great. i dunno, give it a shot if you have one laying around.

jet place in cleveland ohio (jets r us?) still makes those nozzles. they actually make jets there so theyll make you whatever you want. i used them for custom powerjet sizes. keihin only made a "55" powerjet for the later model PWKs that came on the suzukis and yamahas. i think i dropped down to a 52, which doesnt even exist, but they made one. been a couple years.
ratonmacias wrote:
are you positive the nozzle in the 04 carb with tps is changeable? i tought that was possible on the long body mikunis of the 02...
are you positive the nozzle in the 04 carb with tps is changeable? i tought that was possible on the long body mikunis of the 02 and 03 models.
Nozzle is not changeable on the 04+
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/26/2016 10:37pm
2/26/2016 10:37pm
FGR01 wrote:
The jet used for the powerjet in the PWK carbs is the exact same jet used as the leak jet in the Keihin FCR carbs on...
The jet used for the powerjet in the PWK carbs is the exact same jet used as the leak jet in the Keihin FCR carbs on 4-strokes. Keihin sells them in many different sizes but they are only steps of 5. I think I have 40-45-50-55-60-65-70 in my box. A custom 52 would basically split the difference between a 50 and a 55. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a 50 and a 52 so that is doing some serious fine tooth jetting.
From what I understand the power jet only makes up 10% of the total fuel volume so at that point you are probably working with a 1-2% total change between the 55 and the 52? That is definitely some fine or rather "ultra fine" tuning.
Lightning78
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Lightning78 2/27/2016 10:15am
2/27/2016 10:15am
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK...
Id really like to see you try the TMX Mikuni with an S7 nozzle. Back when that bike dropped in 02, Ricky swore on the PWK, until HRC showed him the dyno sheets. They came with an S8 nozzle which is too big, the HRC set-up was an S7 with a rifle bore, mated with a hogged out intake boot.
blackdiamond wrote:
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't...
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't as good. With that said, I haven't used one in 6 or 7 years so I can't remember all that clearly.
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong...
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong ones. you drop down one nozzle size, and all of a sudden that carb works great. i dunno, give it a shot if you have one laying around.

jet place in cleveland ohio (jets r us?) still makes those nozzles. they actually make jets there so theyll make you whatever you want. i used them for custom powerjet sizes. keihin only made a "55" powerjet for the later model PWKs that came on the suzukis and yamahas. i think i dropped down to a 52, which doesnt even exist, but they made one. been a couple years.
Reefer, the nozzle you're referring to is the powerjet nozzle and not the "nozzle" type thing that the main jet screws into and the needle slides into because I know those are replaceable and even though im 100% sure you're correct with the statement above its just difficult for me to wrap my head around the fact that the seemingly insignificant powerjet nozzle is the culprit or a lot of the anemic power of the last gen (02-07) CR250's ....am I reading that correctly??

Im asking because my very next bike and it will be a project bike will be a last gen CR250R 02-07 more specifically a 2002-2004 because with patience on craigslist one in pretty good shape can be had for $1,000 to $1,500 if you look diligently whereas the 05 and up will likely pull in $3,000 easily and they are dam near identical aside from a couple engine changes that arent that difficult to compensate for if you know what needs to be done and its relatively inexpensive to make some small changes that produce a BIG gain. Take into account the legendary Honda quality and the fact that other then the anemic bottom 1/3 of the power was pretty much non-existent on that bike I LOVED my 2002 CR250
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/27/2016 10:43am
2/27/2016 10:43am
Lightning78 wrote:
Reefer, the nozzle you're referring to is the powerjet nozzle and not the "nozzle" type thing that the main jet screws into and the needle slides...
Reefer, the nozzle you're referring to is the powerjet nozzle and not the "nozzle" type thing that the main jet screws into and the needle slides into because I know those are replaceable and even though im 100% sure you're correct with the statement above its just difficult for me to wrap my head around the fact that the seemingly insignificant powerjet nozzle is the culprit or a lot of the anemic power of the last gen (02-07) CR250's ....am I reading that correctly??

Im asking because my very next bike and it will be a project bike will be a last gen CR250R 02-07 more specifically a 2002-2004 because with patience on craigslist one in pretty good shape can be had for $1,000 to $1,500 if you look diligently whereas the 05 and up will likely pull in $3,000 easily and they are dam near identical aside from a couple engine changes that arent that difficult to compensate for if you know what needs to be done and its relatively inexpensive to make some small changes that produce a BIG gain. Take into account the legendary Honda quality and the fact that other then the anemic bottom 1/3 of the power was pretty much non-existent on that bike I LOVED my 2002 CR250
Personally, I prefer the 02-04 engines. Once the squish is corrected they make a better spread of power and the over-rev is better IMO. With the removable exhaust flange its easier to pull the cylinder and do top ends as well. I would let everyone else chase the later models and find a cherry 03-04 for half the $.
ratonmacias
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ratonmacias 2/27/2016 11:30am
2/27/2016 11:30am
blackdiamond wrote:
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't...
I have heard that the Mikuni actually makes more HP at peak but from my experience you have to re-jet almost daily and the midrange isn't as good. With that said, I haven't used one in 6 or 7 years so I can't remember all that clearly.
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong...
so re-jet everyday. you're in the big leagues now. it's all in the nozzle and needle on those. unfortunately honda sent them out with the wrong ones. you drop down one nozzle size, and all of a sudden that carb works great. i dunno, give it a shot if you have one laying around.

jet place in cleveland ohio (jets r us?) still makes those nozzles. they actually make jets there so theyll make you whatever you want. i used them for custom powerjet sizes. keihin only made a "55" powerjet for the later model PWKs that came on the suzukis and yamahas. i think i dropped down to a 52, which doesnt even exist, but they made one. been a couple years.
Lightning78 wrote:
Reefer, the nozzle you're referring to is the powerjet nozzle and not the "nozzle" type thing that the main jet screws into and the needle slides...
Reefer, the nozzle you're referring to is the powerjet nozzle and not the "nozzle" type thing that the main jet screws into and the needle slides into because I know those are replaceable and even though im 100% sure you're correct with the statement above its just difficult for me to wrap my head around the fact that the seemingly insignificant powerjet nozzle is the culprit or a lot of the anemic power of the last gen (02-07) CR250's ....am I reading that correctly??

Im asking because my very next bike and it will be a project bike will be a last gen CR250R 02-07 more specifically a 2002-2004 because with patience on craigslist one in pretty good shape can be had for $1,000 to $1,500 if you look diligently whereas the 05 and up will likely pull in $3,000 easily and they are dam near identical aside from a couple engine changes that arent that difficult to compensate for if you know what needs to be done and its relatively inexpensive to make some small changes that produce a BIG gain. Take into account the legendary Honda quality and the fact that other then the anemic bottom 1/3 of the power was pretty much non-existent on that bike I LOVED my 2002 CR250
the only engine mods i did to my 04 is shaving the base of the cylinder and setting the squish. after careful jetting ( leaner than the manual chart) it runs pretty well. after the engine mods jetting on the mikuni is less finicky.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 2/27/2016 11:51am
2/27/2016 11:51am
ratonmacias wrote:
the only engine mods i did to my 04 is shaving the base of the cylinder and setting the squish. after careful jetting ( leaner than...
the only engine mods i did to my 04 is shaving the base of the cylinder and setting the squish. after careful jetting ( leaner than the manual chart) it runs pretty well. after the engine mods jetting on the mikuni is less finicky.
I totally agree, it's crazy how much the squish affects the stability and consistency of the jetting on those bikes. Honda really missed the mark on the squish, I think most of them come from the factory at .085? That's about double what it should be.

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