2009 Honda CR250

5/2/2015 8:15am
That sounds just about perfect! Man it must be a blast to ride.

So what all was done to get the geometry dialled? I know you went to great lengths to get the countershaft position right, I also remember you said something about lengthening the rear wheel position?

Do you have any videos I can see? I'm dying to hear/see this piece of engineering excellence in action - its been on my mind all week.

And yes I'd give my left nut to ride it... Smile
dogger315
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309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
USA
5/3/2015 11:49am
OnedayWhip wrote:
That sounds just about perfect! Man it must be a blast to ride. So what all was done to get the geometry dialled? I know you...
That sounds just about perfect! Man it must be a blast to ride.

So what all was done to get the geometry dialled? I know you went to great lengths to get the countershaft position right, I also remember you said something about lengthening the rear wheel position?

Do you have any videos I can see? I'm dying to hear/see this piece of engineering excellence in action - its been on my mind all week.

And yes I'd give my left nut to ride it... Smile
The goal was to keep the good geometry that the 2008-2009 CRF250Rs came with, so everything was done with that in mind.
I used the OE tubing (alloy and wall thickness), the OE "Y" joint and placed the engine in the cradle at the same CS to swing
arm pivot angle as original. Because the CR 250 engine is shorter and wider than the CRF engine, I had to use a version of
the 2002-2007 CR250 cradle to get the engine low enough in the frame to keep the angle correct.

I learned from my 500 that the combination of more power and a two stroke hit, the wheelbase needed to be lengthened to
keep the front wheel nearer the ground, thus the longer 450F swingarm. Also a two stroke engine has it's mass centralized
lower in comparrison to a four stroke by design, so this was a bonus at getting more weight lower in the frame. This is
why you see aftermarket companies offering radiator lowering kits to try to reduce the top heavy feeling of four strokes.

The result is a corner carver that's more stable than the origiinal.

I don't have any video. When I'm doing prelim testing, I'm usually alone and too busy working out problems. I promise to get
some helmet cam and regular video of both of these bikes eventually.

dogger
matt.3150
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Location
San Jose, CA, USA
5/20/2015 1:16pm
youre lucky on the honda top engine mount bracket being so close to the yoke, on my kx5 its about 4" down. for safety i'm going...
youre lucky on the honda top engine mount bracket being so close to the yoke, on my kx5 its about 4" down. for safety i'm going to end up putting some more reinforcement between the bottom of the yoke and the first engine mount. supposedly thats where the weak spot is on these conversions. the bottom mount is pretty much not needed but the top one should be really hardmounted as best you can get it.

cant tell from the pic you posted due to the rubber protector on top of it, i see you used the steel pressed 'ears' off the original 4T but did you cnc a bracket to come off the center frame mount?
Isn't the honda frames made out of 7050 aluminum not 6000 series?
JBernard_401
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10/29/2013
Location
Boulder, CO, USA
5/20/2015 1:28pm
matt.3150 wrote:
Isn't the honda frames made out of 7050 aluminum not 6000 series?
no one knows.

some of it is cast. some of it is 6000 or 7000 series of different alloys.

ive got a good source that says sometimes they run what random alloy the mill has available or is casting at that time.

The Shop

10/10/2015 3:30pm
Dogger,

I was reading on another forum that you were going to use a zeeltronic ignition with a Kaasaki carb and. Power jet. I noticed that you mentioned that you used a dicks intelajet and a Vortex 10 ignition. Why di you make the change? Was there issues with the first method?

If you ever do want to sell the bike, please contact me as well as mxboy2661 as I love the bike, but I am not blessed with the fabrication skill sets (accountant by trade). Also, you haven't given us an update on how the TMR motor runs?

Great work,

Byron Nagazina
10/10/2015 4:31pm
Seriously, that is a " real deal" build! By far the best ive seen!!! Dogger, you seriously have AMAZING skills! Would you be interested in any side work? I have something in mind mxboy2661@yahoo.com
10/10/2015 5:09pm
Do we have a finished scoot yet? Pictures?
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
USA
10/14/2015 2:40pm
Bnagazina wrote:
Dogger, I was reading on another forum that you were going to use a zeeltronic ignition with a Kaasaki carb and. Power jet. I noticed that...
Dogger,

I was reading on another forum that you were going to use a zeeltronic ignition with a Kaasaki carb and. Power jet. I noticed that you mentioned that you used a dicks intelajet and a Vortex 10 ignition. Why di you make the change? Was there issues with the first method?

If you ever do want to sell the bike, please contact me as well as mxboy2661 as I love the bike, but I am not blessed with the fabrication skill sets (accountant by trade). Also, you haven't given us an update on how the TMR motor runs?

Great work,

Byron Nagazina
Yes. I don't think the Zeeltronics is suitable for moto. The IC is constructed of hard plastic with two mounting tabs
that you would use to bolt it on. Probably best for shifter karts. Also, I used a similar set up years ago when TMR
was using JD programmable ignitions with KX250 carbs. It worked well enough, but was more complicated than
what I'm using now with no real gains in performance. The Dicks Racing carb and the Vortex ignition is a nice
combo - simple with great performance.

As for how the motor and bike run, now that the bike is completely sorted, I can say this motor is one of the strongest
CR250s I have seen. TMR ported it for an outdoors style mid and up powerband. I "hired" the riding portion of the
testing and development out to a friend that used to do this kind of work for a living. We experimented with many
ignition maps, compression ratios, flywheel weights, jetting, race gases, gearing, etc. before settling on what we
have now. By the way, for all the naysayers on the Showa "Airs", once dialed in properly they work like gangbusters.
I have all the versions, dual spring, SFF and Airs. The Airs soak up everything from stutters to G outs without
missing a beat. They provide the same level of confidence inspiring over the SFFs as the dual spring A kits do over
stock or modified OE suspenders. I can tell you that just watching a potent CR250 like this at full tilt was worth the
price of admission alone. That sound and the smell was simply icing on the cake

This bike isn't for sale, but I do build replicas on a limited basis. In fact I have a sweet CR500 that's nearly identical
to mine that I was building for a customer. He ran into some financial problems and backed out, so the bike is for
sale. If a 500 is too much, I can build a copy of this bike as well. If you or mxboy are interested, let me know.

Travis, I thought I had posted pictures of the finished bike way back, but here are some more:









FWIW, I've called it quits on MX racing due to a blown knee. I still need the adrenaline rush so I'm in the
process of switching over to four wheels in the form of sports car racing. It's a huge change in terms of
skill sets. I have already completed some of the formal schooling I need to qualify for a race license with
more to come. I need a bigger trailer, a bigger truck to pull the bigger trailer, a bigger shop to work on the
car, tons of required safety gear and then there's the car itself. I'm starting with a 2009 ex Rolex Grand Am
Series Porsche GT3. If ever I needed a sponsor, now's the time $$$$

I consider this a branching out move. I'll still ride for fun and continue to build bikes, but my new, bigger shop
will be split between cars and bikes - half for racing and half for restos and builds. Should be a hoot and a lot
easier on my knees.
10/14/2015 6:03pm
Dogger, your obsession to detail will serve you well in the 4 wheeled world.
Keep us posted.
sende
Posts
2394
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Location
FI
10/16/2015 8:16am
Unreal. Respect.
10/16/2015 9:32am
Thing is unbelievable!!!! Thanks for sharing! You are a craftsman my friend!
10/17/2015 5:46am
wow!!!!!! just wow!!!!!!!!!
10/17/2015 5:48am
dogger, what will a cr250 cost identical to what you built? jeez, just wow!
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
USA
10/17/2015 11:49am
Thanks guys!

Matt, will do.

"dogger, what will a cr250 cost identical to what you built? jeez, just wow!"

A lot. Remember, the purpose of this project was to build an all out, no expense spared CR250 that was as close
as an individual builder could get to what (I thought) Honda would be fielding if they still raced two strokes.

This build started with a take off frame (from a brand new CRF250R that was parted out), which I modified and filled
with the best of everything I could find. I haven't built a replica of this bike yet, but I estimate the cost of parts only
to be in the $25,000 range, maybe more. The suspension alone is crowding $10,000.

For those not made of money, I can also build a lower buck version using an existing 2009 CRF250R that isn't ratted
out, modifying the frame and stuffing a nice 2000 or 2001 CR250 engine built with a combination of new and used
parts. Use OE forks and shock that have been gone over by a reputable suspension shop along with as few or many
aftermarket and go fast goodies as the buyer wants or can afford, to end up with a finished bike at a fraction of the
cost.

Unfortunately, the Honda parts supply is finite and some of the aftermarket parts needed for these gen 4 builds are
getting scarce as well. I'm hoping Honda markets a newer CRF250R that handles as well as the 2008-9 soon to
solve my frame parts problem, and I'm going to have to look into the RC valved engines as some parts for the HPP
are already NLA.
Helder
Posts
1044
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Location
AU
10/17/2015 12:39pm
Hey Dogger do you have the link to you CR500 build?
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2181
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Location
Somewhere in, NJ, USA
10/17/2015 1:31pm
I have about $25k into my build.. the 225lb wet weight CRF450, but I prefer your 2 stroke.. I am a 2 stroke guy at heart. Thanks to an exploding hose on the water truck at the track, I broke my back on May 20th that ended my riding career. I already had a race car and like you have turned my attention back to that. It runs mid- 10's at ~ 128mph in the quarter mile. Dyno'd at 772 hp at 6300 rpm and 705 ft lbs of tq at 4200rpm. I need the weekly adrenline rush, too!











mike
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
USA
10/18/2015 10:01am
Mike, it really sucks when you are forced to quit a sport due to injury. I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you.
With me, I knew it was coming. My knee was going down hill all the time in spite of the steroid shots, gel injections
and orthoscopic surgery. In the end it was bone on bone and the only recourse was a knee replacement. Since I
didn't want to go through all of that again anytime soon, I decided it was best to knock off anything that really
hammered my knees, so I can still ride, just not race.

That is one sweet Camaro. In spite of the blown small block, it looks street legal. Do you drive a 10 second car
to the strip? What else have you done to it? It has to be a rush to drive something with that kind of power to
weight ratio. For safety sake, I hope you at least have a full cage. What are you going o do with the CRF?

Here are some pictures of what I plan to race. This is a Porsche GT3 R. These cars are built by the Porsche
factory and sold to customers. They are raced in everything from local PMNA driving events to the 24 hours of
LeMans:








Helder, I don't think I posted much about my CR500 build on this site, but here's a link to another website with
some info: http://www.allthingsmoto.com/forums/f-235/
10/18/2015 11:17am
dogger315 wrote:
Thanks guys! Matt, will do. "dogger, what will a cr250 cost identical to what you built? jeez, just wow!" A lot. Remember, the purpose of this...
Thanks guys!

Matt, will do.

"dogger, what will a cr250 cost identical to what you built? jeez, just wow!"

A lot. Remember, the purpose of this project was to build an all out, no expense spared CR250 that was as close
as an individual builder could get to what (I thought) Honda would be fielding if they still raced two strokes.

This build started with a take off frame (from a brand new CRF250R that was parted out), which I modified and filled
with the best of everything I could find. I haven't built a replica of this bike yet, but I estimate the cost of parts only
to be in the $25,000 range, maybe more. The suspension alone is crowding $10,000.

For those not made of money, I can also build a lower buck version using an existing 2009 CRF250R that isn't ratted
out, modifying the frame and stuffing a nice 2000 or 2001 CR250 engine built with a combination of new and used
parts. Use OE forks and shock that have been gone over by a reputable suspension shop along with as few or many
aftermarket and go fast goodies as the buyer wants or can afford, to end up with a finished bike at a fraction of the
cost.

Unfortunately, the Honda parts supply is finite and some of the aftermarket parts needed for these gen 4 builds are
getting scarce as well. I'm hoping Honda markets a newer CRF250R that handles as well as the 2008-9 soon to
solve my frame parts problem, and I'm going to have to look into the RC valved engines as some parts for the HPP
are already NLA.
A random question, but you seem to be able to score these really dope factory parts for all of your bike builds. Think you could score me any factory suzuki parts for my rm 125? Triple clamps in particular lol. I'll pay good money for them. Just a shot in the dark lol but I'd thought I'd ask.
Helder
Posts
1044
Joined
5/16/2015
Location
AU
10/18/2015 12:48pm
I love these builds there should be a spot on the forum just for builds and bike modification
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2181
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ, USA
10/18/2015 6:03pm
Hi Dogger,

Yes, 45 years of motocross came to an end because of a water truck operator.. hose blew and washed all the lose dirt and rocks onto the landing of a big jump (4th gear) that was immediately followed by another big jump with a left hand corner after it. I landed in the mud and rocks and hit the next ramp with throttle pinned when you are only supposed to creep/ scrub over because of the lefthander right after it. I was 25' in the air facing a flat landing and the broken water truck parked right at the corner on the side. My biggest fear was t-boning the water truck so I jumped off and pushed the bike away.. landed on my feet from 25' breaking my L1 vertebrae into 4 pieces. I have 2 titanium rods fusing 6 vertebre now. I probably have as much titanium in me as on my CRF450.. LOL Smile

All your toys are top shelf.. That Porsche race car is quite a machine. I just imagined you building the car yourself, though. I would like to get a car for the corners as there is a track close by.

Yes, it is street legal (sort of) and I drive the car to the track.. it was built to be able to drive anywhere on pump gas, but the Tremec 5 speed manual and dual disc clutch (almost no slip) is a handful. If it were a track only car, it would not get that enough use. I can go for a quick spin after work for a mini adrenaline fix. The car was built with mostly NOS parts so the interior looks like it did when it rolled off the assembly line 43 years ago. Engine/ driveline, suspension and brakes are all race car parts (mixture of drag and autocross), while body and interior is restored. It has a roll bar and full harness, but not a cage which would make driving it on the street a pain. I don't need a cage to be NHRA legal for 10 second times. It is a 401ci Dart block and an 8-71 Littlefield blower with AFR 227 heads and a mild solid roller camshaft. I did all the work myself from the frame up.

I don't plan to sell the CRF450. I don't think I would have too many buyers at even half of what I put into it. I only rode it for 30 minutes after finishing it. It sits nice and pretty in the garage next to my other bikes.

I would get that knee replaced and get it behind you. The surgical techniques get better and better for a quicker recover.. not sure when you had your last one. It means better quality of life for someone as active as you are.

It has been a long road to recovery, but lucky I was not paralyzed.. my plan is to be fit enough for ski season by mid-December.

mike
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
USA
10/19/2015 7:33am
A random question, but you seem to be able to score these really dope factory parts for all of your bike builds. Think you could score...
A random question, but you seem to be able to score these really dope factory parts for all of your bike builds. Think you could score me any factory suzuki parts for my rm 125? Triple clamps in particular lol. I'll pay good money for them. Just a shot in the dark lol but I'd thought I'd ask.
Sorry, but my sources don't include anyone from that brand. I do get trade offers from time to time. If somebody
comes up with a set of Mag RM triples, I'll let you know.
10/19/2015 7:56am
A random question, but you seem to be able to score these really dope factory parts for all of your bike builds. Think you could score...
A random question, but you seem to be able to score these really dope factory parts for all of your bike builds. Think you could score me any factory suzuki parts for my rm 125? Triple clamps in particular lol. I'll pay good money for them. Just a shot in the dark lol but I'd thought I'd ask.
dogger315 wrote:
Sorry, but my sources don't include anyone from that brand. I do get trade offers from time to time. If somebody comes up with a set...
Sorry, but my sources don't include anyone from that brand. I do get trade offers from time to time. If somebody
comes up with a set of Mag RM triples, I'll let you know.
That would be awesome. I appreciate even remotely considering the offer to help. I want a suzuki rm version of your bikes you build all the time lol! Thanks again.
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
USA
10/19/2015 8:06am
Wow Mike, that was a no win situation. You're lucky it didn't end even worse. I'm with you on the Ti and SS body
parts, I'm carrying a few myself. Here's hoping your recovery is quick and complete.

That "Z" is even more amazing since you did all the work yourself - beautiful job!

I would like to e more involved with the fabrication and mods on my car, but the sanctioning bodies are really strict
about what can be done. For instance, I can't even drill a hole in my helmet to mount a radio plug because that
would decertify it according to the FIA. Eventually, as I get a better handle on things, I'll get into it. But for now, a
turn key race car seems to be the best start.

I go see the knee doc on the 29th.
10/21/2015 5:17am
I only one thing to say.. When are we gonna see (and listen) a video of this bike running? ;-)

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