Is it time to have playoffs?

Zracer
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4/2/2015 11:17am
Falcon wrote:
No playoffs, but I like the idea of fewer races. Then again, Feld wants mo $, mo $, mo $! One thing you could do is...
No playoffs, but I like the idea of fewer races. Then again, Feld wants mo $, mo $, mo $!

One thing you could do is widen the points gap from 1st to 2nd, from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 4th. Maybe go 35, 25, 21, 18, and then so on down the list as before. This would give the win an even bigger points bonus, still reward podium consistency, and allow a rider in Tomac's position to get on a hot streak and really make up points. If there is a rider who has won throughout the season in dominant fashion (Dungey or Musquin, for instance,) he'd still reap the benefits of his dominance anyway.

If they made a change this is the only one that makes sense.
4/2/2015 11:45am
ChrisB10 wrote:
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way...
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way too unpredictable for playoffs IMO. With crashes bad starts and Bike problems I dont think you'd always have the best rider come out on top.
How would it be less fair than if Dungey, today, after dominating all year, broke his arm practicing and Tomac won the last 4 races + title?
4/2/2015 11:56am
Zracer wrote:
What we have to lose is a real champion being decided ,as it is now, VS some arbitrary BS Champion under a "chase" system.
The current system is arbitrary too, it's just been done for years and years and so you're used to it and think that's the way it "should" be. CHANGE BAD.
Excaliburbmx
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4/2/2015 12:40pm
Do it like bmx 10 best plus the final.

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dwight955
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4/2/2015 12:48pm
Maybe sx should be a poker run. That would even things out.
Zracer
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4/2/2015 12:54pm
Zracer wrote:
What we have to lose is a real champion being decided ,as it is now, VS some arbitrary BS Champion under a "chase" system.
The current system is arbitrary too, it's just been done for years and years and so you're used to it and think that's the way it...
The current system is arbitrary too, it's just been done for years and years and so you're used to it and think that's the way it "should" be. CHANGE BAD.
Yeah pointing equally for every race in a series is arbitrary. .....
KlootZak
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4/2/2015 1:36pm
I like the idea but in this conservative world it is (unfortunately) never going to fly. Just look back at the final rounds of previous seasons:

2010: Boring (Only Dungey left)
2011: Exciting title chase to the end
2012: Boring (Everybody crashed out)
2013: Boring (RV locked everything up)
2014: Boring (RV locked everything up)
2015: Boring (Dungey locked everything up)

I would like a change so the final races are more exiting to watch. Every time at the end of a supercross season I am looking forward to something else.
JB 19
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4/2/2015 2:00pm Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 2:35pm
I'm still torn on how you define the best. So many other sports recognize the best as being the strongest at the end. The most mentally tough rise up when the pressure is at its highest.

I guess I just watch so many other sports. The regular season is still important, but there are always guys who go off like a bottle rocket, but when it's playoff time you learn who the big dogs are.

Let's take Aaron Plessinger two years ago at LL's. Jordan Smith was the heavy B class favorite. Plessinger showed up and wiped the floor with everyone. Does he not deserve those titles?

Not saying pro racing should be a one race title, but how do you exactly define who is the best? At what point in time? If this series when for 45 rounds it's very possible Dungey might get injured or someone else would catch fire. So when do say that guy is the best?
JB 19
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4/2/2015 2:09pm
One example is 2010 250 outdoors. Pourcel kicked everyone's ass most of the year. Canard go hot at the end and got close. Pourcel crashed at Pala and hurt his shoulder. Does Canard not deserve that title since Pourcel was so impressive the rest of the year? This was basically once in 20 years event where a playoff scenario happened without the structure for it.

Another time was in 92' when Emig stole the 125 title from Larocco. Who deserved that title? Larocco's dad basically flubbed it all up. How do define "best?"
4/2/2015 2:13pm
JB 19 wrote:
I'm still torn on how you define the best. So many other sports recognize the best as being the strongest at the end. The most mentally...
I'm still torn on how you define the best. So many other sports recognize the best as being the strongest at the end. The most mentally tough rise up when the pressure is at its highest.

I guess I just watch so many other sports. The regular season is still important, but there are always guys who go off like a bottle rocket, but when it's playoff time you learn who the big dogs are.

Let's take Aaron Plessinger two years ago at LL's. Jordan Smith was the heavy B class favorite. Plessinger showed up and wiped the floor with everyone. Does he not deserve those titles?

Not saying pro racing should be a one race title, but how do you exactly define who is the best? At what point in time? If this series when for 45 rounds it's very possible Dungey might get injured or someone else would catch fire. So when do say that guy is the best?
I'm asking the same questions. Maybe you can get an answer out of em.
mark_swart
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4/2/2015 2:43pm
I'm not convinced, but here's what I think might work.

1) NO point reset like arenacross. Riders keep their points from the first 2/3 of the season - as stated, it's really unfair to the ones who have been there every week.

2) For the final 1/3 of the events, main event wins are worth 75 points, 10 points back to 2nd and then 5 points less per position after that. This keeps guys with a big lead from cruising it in, and gives others a realistic shot at the title. Call it the finals, grand finale, whatever.

Aside from that, I do believe the series is too long. Having a throwaway round would also be good if they are going to have such a long series, but it will make scoring confusing and that wouldn't be good on the marketing end.
JB 19
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4/2/2015 2:50pm
mark_swart wrote:
I'm not convinced, but here's what I think might work. 1) NO point reset like arenacross. Riders keep their points from the first 2/3 of the...
I'm not convinced, but here's what I think might work.

1) NO point reset like arenacross. Riders keep their points from the first 2/3 of the season - as stated, it's really unfair to the ones who have been there every week.

2) For the final 1/3 of the events, main event wins are worth 75 points, 10 points back to 2nd and then 5 points less per position after that. This keeps guys with a big lead from cruising it in, and gives others a realistic shot at the title. Call it the finals, grand finale, whatever.

Aside from that, I do believe the series is too long. Having a throwaway round would also be good if they are going to have such a long series, but it will make scoring confusing and that wouldn't be good on the marketing end.
Weighted points for the final 1/3 of the races would be an interesting thought......and a throw away race.
Gukamonster
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4/2/2015 3:04pm Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 3:04pm
Hell No.

It makes the championship into a complete sham, just like NASCAR. It's nothing more than a desperate short-sighted ploy for attention in the nano-second attention span culture we have. NASCAR got an initial boost from their change for about 3-4 years and then interest went downhill fast. Last year they made it into even more of a gameshow where the best finisher in the last race wins the championship. Why not just watch The Price Is Right?

If the format has to be tweaked I would say use a format where you can drop 1 or 2 of your worst finishes in the series, ie. your best 15 of 17 races count. This was done in Formula 1 for about a decade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_poi…
kijen
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4/2/2015 3:13pm
kijen wrote:
So, we are talking about resetting points to give more guys a chance at the title? what's next, should we give participation points as well....I'm thinking...
So, we are talking about resetting points to give more guys a chance at the title? what's next, should we give participation points as well....I'm thinking everybody has the same opportunity at the beginning of each race and the best racer wins, at the end the series the racer with the most points wins the championship, period.

I get we want to see more and better racing, but that is up to the racers themselves, we can't go all socialist and start penalizing a guy who dominates. Dungy, Villopoto, Stew, and all the other riders who dominated and made racing boring should be given the respect they earned for being the absolute best.

all riders., both factory and privateer don't DESERVE anything....They go out and RACE for points, they get what they EARN, not deserve....

some of the best racing is in the LCQ with those privateers trying to earn a spot in the main...



Regarding your last line, the only reason a rider qualifies through the LCQ is because they didn't get it done in the heats. So we give...
Regarding your last line,

the only reason a rider qualifies through the LCQ is because they didn't get it done in the heats. So we give them a second chance (semis), with pared-down competition, then a third chance with competition pared even further.

If a rider crashes or his bike fails, the LCQ says he's deserving of a second chance. Do you say he should've earned his way in the first time?

What's the difference between providing a safety net for one race vs. a whole season?
While I understand your point, my last line pretty much said, the best racing may be in the lcq, usually by guys slower then the best, but equal speed to each other which at times makes for good racing.

Yes it may be boring watching dungy, but sometimes you can look around the track to find a good battle, sometimes though it is single file. Either way it's the riders that decide how well we are entertained. It is their show.
GuyB
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4/2/2015 4:51pm
JB 19 wrote:
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking...
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking.

Regular sports that have a playoffs generally reward teams that have a good regular season and then have the chance to get hot and peak at the right time.

It's accepted in other sports that you can get your shit together in the last 30% of the season and kick everyone's ass and be called the best.

Take something like the top ten in points and start over at round 11 with 1st beginning with 10 points and 10th with none with all other positions filled in with points that reflect their "regular season" ending position. This would give the top guys a small advantage as a reward for their current position when playoffs start.

Think what it could do to the sport right now if Dungey, a gritty Canard, and a fired up Tomac all had a real shot. Add in the intrigue of someone like Roczen making a mad rush to get into the top ten so he has a shot.

I'm about as old school as it gets, but I'll admit that what is going now and how most seasons unfold is as stale as a week old piece of pizza. I'm a sucker for pizza, but that doesn't make it good pizza.
I think part of what makes the championship chase so respectable is that you have to play for the entire season, and be there at the end.

Having a playoff format could force some guys back from injuries earlier. Do we want to see a gritty Canard come back from a broken arm too early? What if coming back early shortened Roczen's career?

A couple weeks ago, someone was posting that Supercross was run by an "entertainment company," like it was a bad thing. To me, having a championship that's earned by racing all 17 rounds shows that they're interested in the legitimacy of the racing, not in being a sideshow.

On the other hand, they're using a playoff format in Arenacross this year...
ChrisB10
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4/2/2015 5:50pm
ChrisB10 wrote:
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way...
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way too unpredictable for playoffs IMO. With crashes bad starts and Bike problems I dont think you'd always have the best rider come out on top.
How would it be less fair than if Dungey, today, after dominating all year, broke his arm practicing and Tomac won the last 4 races +...
How would it be less fair than if Dungey, today, after dominating all year, broke his arm practicing and Tomac won the last 4 races + title?
Dungey could break his arm but still win the championship if Eli wasnt perfect just like how RV still won it after getting hurt that 1 year. In a playoff Dungey would have zero chance of still winning. See what I mean?
DPR250R
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4/2/2015 6:06pm
I do think something is wrong when more times then not... the excitement level drops as the season drags on.
KennyT
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4/2/2015 8:55pm Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 8:58pm


There are purist who do not care for what NASCAR did but it is working. Fontana sold out a few weeks ago and Cal is not a NASCAR state, as far from it as you can get.

Riders being injured by going balls out to make the chase or returning from injury too soon? These guys can suffer career ending injuries on a practice track

Cruising around after they have made the chase? What do u think it looks like out there right now when the title is already decided. It is one big frieight train of riders cruising around...no passing...no intensity

Some guy gets injured and misses half the season and makes it back into the chase by winning and wins the title. It can happen in most any sport. Huge and succesful sports all have playoff formats. Most any ball sport, NASCAR, NHRA, F1 hS a double point final...all of this is to avoid what SX deals with most seasons.

Everyone wants live TV and riders making big bucks. It's not going to happen if the sport gets shitty ratings and fans lose interest at the end of the season
mx510
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4/2/2015 9:09pm
In 10 years I will remember this as the year Dungey crushed everyone. This talk didn't exist when Carmichael went 24-0 in 2002 or 2004 or...
In 10 years I will remember this as the year Dungey crushed everyone.

This talk didn't exist when Carmichael went 24-0 in 2002 or 2004 or when Stew did it in 2008. Those years were blow outs! We didn't care though because we were amazed at the dominance. Why is this any different?

I remember Villopoto and Townley 2007 not because they were close due to a chase format, but because they matched each other blow for blow for 4 months! Same with Villopoto and Dungey in 2011.
Frankly, I am tired of watching dominance. It was alright for a while, but we NEED some suspense added. Its getting extremely predictable and almost boring if you arent a super moto geek.
Flip109
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4/2/2015 9:19pm
What if maybe the points double the last four rounds. Now this could twist the dagger in the hopefuls heart. Or it could light a really big fire under their ass(tomac).
JB 19
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4/3/2015 12:47am
Extremely weighted points for the last 6 rounds sounds very interesting to me. Say like 45 points for 1st, 35 for second, 27 for third, 20 for 4th etc. You don't lose what you already have, but have the opportunity to make up a minimum of 60 points if you win every playoff round.

I guarantee you would see some wild eyed mofos like Weston Peick, Trey Canard, and Chad Reed when the playoff rounds started. The current red plater would feel enormous pressure to not choke. Some guys would buckle like a cheap umbrella, and others would live for the moment. Could you imagine 2003 with Reed rolling with all that momentum and RC doing everything he can to drag that low rider to the finish under a structure like this?

Then again, I'm kind of a dreamer and seem to see all kinds of potential in just about anything.
Indy mxer
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4/3/2015 4:38am
KennyT wrote:
There are purist who do not care for what NASCAR did but it is working. Fontana sold out a few weeks ago and Cal is not...


There are purist who do not care for what NASCAR did but it is working. Fontana sold out a few weeks ago and Cal is not a NASCAR state, as far from it as you can get.

Riders being injured by going balls out to make the chase or returning from injury too soon? These guys can suffer career ending injuries on a practice track

Cruising around after they have made the chase? What do u think it looks like out there right now when the title is already decided. It is one big frieight train of riders cruising around...no passing...no intensity

Some guy gets injured and misses half the season and makes it back into the chase by winning and wins the title. It can happen in most any sport. Huge and succesful sports all have playoff formats. Most any ball sport, NASCAR, NHRA, F1 hS a double point final...all of this is to avoid what SX deals with most seasons.

Everyone wants live TV and riders making big bucks. It's not going to happen if the sport gets shitty ratings and fans lose interest at the end of the season
Well said. As a NASCAR fan, I like the chase. Last year was awesome. Drivers raced their ass off all year trying to get the win to lock them into the chase. And the chase was close all the way to the end!

As far SX goes, I think something like that would be a good change. Dungey has this thing locked up and it's boring now.
Why not try something different? Change is good.

It's not working this way imo.
Johnny Depp
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4/3/2015 6:51am
ChrisB10 wrote:
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way...
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way too unpredictable for playoffs IMO. With crashes bad starts and Bike problems I dont think you'd always have the best rider come out on top.
Like Herlings? The non playoff system doesn't prevent that.
Johnny Depp
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4/3/2015 7:02am
JB 19 wrote:
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking...
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking.

Regular sports that have a playoffs generally reward teams that have a good regular season and then have the chance to get hot and peak at the right time.

It's accepted in other sports that you can get your shit together in the last 30% of the season and kick everyone's ass and be called the best.

Take something like the top ten in points and start over at round 11 with 1st beginning with 10 points and 10th with none with all other positions filled in with points that reflect their "regular season" ending position. This would give the top guys a small advantage as a reward for their current position when playoffs start.

Think what it could do to the sport right now if Dungey, a gritty Canard, and a fired up Tomac all had a real shot. Add in the intrigue of someone like Roczen making a mad rush to get into the top ten so he has a shot.

I'm about as old school as it gets, but I'll admit that what is going now and how most seasons unfold is as stale as a week old piece of pizza. I'm a sucker for pizza, but that doesn't make it good pizza.
GuyB wrote:
I think part of what makes the championship chase so respectable is that you have to play for the entire season, and be there at the...
I think part of what makes the championship chase so respectable is that you have to play for the entire season, and be there at the end.

Having a playoff format could force some guys back from injuries earlier. Do we want to see a gritty Canard come back from a broken arm too early? What if coming back early shortened Roczen's career?

A couple weeks ago, someone was posting that Supercross was run by an "entertainment company," like it was a bad thing. To me, having a championship that's earned by racing all 17 rounds shows that they're interested in the legitimacy of the racing, not in being a sideshow.

On the other hand, they're using a playoff format in Arenacross this year...
More people watched the last GP last year due to Herlings trying to ride with a broken leg. It added Drama.

We need to move further in the direction of entertainment, the show is too boring.

Supercross is a victim of it's own success. They make so much money they don't want to improve anything.

Eric Peronnard should be the promoter. He knows how to put on a show.
Brosho
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4/3/2015 7:10am
JB 19 wrote:
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking...
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking.

Regular sports that have a playoffs generally reward teams that have a good regular season and then have the chance to get hot and peak at the right time.

It's accepted in other sports that you can get your shit together in the last 30% of the season and kick everyone's ass and be called the best.

Take something like the top ten in points and start over at round 11 with 1st beginning with 10 points and 10th with none with all other positions filled in with points that reflect their "regular season" ending position. This would give the top guys a small advantage as a reward for their current position when playoffs start.

Think what it could do to the sport right now if Dungey, a gritty Canard, and a fired up Tomac all had a real shot. Add in the intrigue of someone like Roczen making a mad rush to get into the top ten so he has a shot.

I'm about as old school as it gets, but I'll admit that what is going now and how most seasons unfold is as stale as a week old piece of pizza. I'm a sucker for pizza, but that doesn't make it good pizza.
Just allow the riders to throw out 2 of thier worst races, since the sieries is 17 races, only score 15 of the races. So if a rider gets hurt or sick and miss 2 races, or score. Rey bad in 2 races, he can throw out those 2 races and still be in the points hunt. If he gets hurt the first weekend of the month and miss 2 Races that will give him 3 weeks to heal and maybe 4 weeks to heal if he gets hurt near the bye week.
Stefan82
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4/3/2015 7:42am
What about throwaways? Your worst three results will be gone like in MXDN when every nation will delete their worst result?

Dungey would lose 58 points, Tomac only 12 although Dungey will still have 238 points with Tomac on 204.
ChrisB10
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4/3/2015 12:59pm
ChrisB10 wrote:
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way...
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way too unpredictable for playoffs IMO. With crashes bad starts and Bike problems I dont think you'd always have the best rider come out on top.
Like Herlings? The non playoff system doesn't prevent that.
WRONG!

Herlings still almost won it. In a playoff system he would have had zero chance. Not a difficult concept......
KennyT
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4/3/2015 2:00pm
ChrisB10 wrote:
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way...
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way too unpredictable for playoffs IMO. With crashes bad starts and Bike problems I dont think you'd always have the best rider come out on top.
Like Herlings? The non playoff system doesn't prevent that.
ChrisB10 wrote:
WRONG!

Herlings still almost won it. In a playoff system he would have had zero chance. Not a difficult concept......
So he would have had no chance because he had a pretty nasty injury at the end of the season. Sounds fair to me
JB 19
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4/3/2015 2:09pm
Having a throw away race or maybe two could be the least hokey way to do it. I still like something that raises the intensity toward the end of the series though.

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