Is it time to have playoffs?

Spartacus
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4/2/2015 5:05am
The more homogeneous we can get the sport the easier it will be to "grow the sport" attracting more interest which in turn will draw more sponsor money and after all, isn't that what sport is all about? Money.


God just kill me now.
kijen
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4/2/2015 5:18am Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 5:19am
So, we are talking about resetting points to give more guys a chance at the title? what's next, should we give participation points as well....I'm thinking everybody has the same opportunity at the beginning of each race and the best racer wins, at the end the series the racer with the most points wins the championship, period.

I get we want to see more and better racing, but that is up to the racers themselves, we can't go all socialist and start penalizing a guy who dominates. Dungy, Villopoto, Stew, and all the other riders who dominated and made racing boring should be given the respect they earned for being the absolute best.

all riders., both factory and privateer don't DESERVE anything....They go out and RACE for points, they get what they EARN, not deserve....

some of the best racing is in the LCQ with those privateers trying to earn a spot in the main...



Starcrossed
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4/2/2015 5:42am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
I say no to a chase format . I like it the way it is but if you want a change just throw out the points...
I say no to a chase format . I like it the way it is but if you want a change just throw out the points . The rider with the most wins can be champ.
Do you think that would lead to more injuries with a "win at all costs," mentality? I like the idea of a "chase" system and since we revisit this topic on at least an annual basis many others probably do also. With injuries being a big topic again this season maybe there is a way to work towards reducing the number of riders on the injured list while pumping more excitement into more rounds. By the time the series rolled around to New Jersey last year the excitement level was not what I anticipated. See prior year thread for lots of Videas.
wanglimp
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4/2/2015 5:51am
I am not a fan of the idea of a "chase" type system, but all you guys that are acting extremely opposed to the idea can't tell me that watching Dungey clinch the championship with three races to go is exciting. The last three races of the season are going to be pretty much worthless, no better than a one off race IMO. I do think some sort of change could be implemented to keep the title chase tighter all the way to the finish. The complicated thing is, any year like this year where so many top guys get injured and cant complete the season, you are going to be hard pressed to not have the one healthy top guy run away with it. So I offer an opinion with no soultion, your welcome.

The Shop

ATKpilot99
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4/2/2015 5:58am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
I say no to a chase format . I like it the way it is but if you want a change just throw out the points...
I say no to a chase format . I like it the way it is but if you want a change just throw out the points . The rider with the most wins can be champ.
Do you think that would lead to more injuries with a "win at all costs," mentality? I like the idea of a "chase" system and since...
Do you think that would lead to more injuries with a "win at all costs," mentality? I like the idea of a "chase" system and since we revisit this topic on at least an annual basis many others probably do also. With injuries being a big topic again this season maybe there is a way to work towards reducing the number of riders on the injured list while pumping more excitement into more rounds. By the time the series rolled around to New Jersey last year the excitement level was not what I anticipated. See prior year thread for lots of Videas.
It may , yes.
RY4N37
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4/2/2015 6:01am
They recently started doing this in the British Superbike Series. With about 5 or 6 rounds to go they put all of the top 6 in the championship 500 points, then give them points for podiums they've had over the season, 3 points for every win, 2 points for a second, 3 points for a third. It does liven up the championship for the last few rounds, but I'm not a fan personally. It should be the best over all the rounds
nytsmaC
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4/2/2015 6:05am
What about giving them 2 throwaway rounds? It would really tighten up the points, and give a desperate but injured racer a break to get healthier.
4/2/2015 7:00am
No. If we do that we might as well just have 17 rounds and crown a champion each week. IMO, true forms of motorsport don't "create" excitement. They allow is to naturally happen, and when it does it's a wonderful thing to behold. You remember it forever.
KennyT
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4/2/2015 7:24am Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 7:33am
Absolutely not. The difference between team sports and racing is that in racing, you are competing against everyone else every week. In football, if a team...
Absolutely not. The difference between team sports and racing is that in racing, you are competing against everyone else every week. In football, if a team has 15 great weeks, and one terrible week, only one of their competition gets the benefits of that terrible week. In racing, if you have a bad week, everyone of your competitors benefits.

For those who want it because they lose interest when the race isn't likely to have a significant effect on the championship, what are you going to do when most of the races don't have a significant effect on the championship? Do you think that riders are going to push that hard early in the season when a 5th place is effectively just as good for the championship as a win. They'll go out, try to get their top 5 finishes every week and stay out of trouble. The whole focus on championships ruins racing. Watch racing for the races themselves.
They way nascar is doing it makes every race significant . Win and you are in the playoffs. That would make the fight for the wins throughout the season extremely intense. No running around in podium position for points

. Imagine it's the last race of the regular season and let's say Tomac had not won yet. He is running in 3rd with 5 laps to go. Win and he is in the championship hunt, 2nd he is out. The intensity would increase and make for incredible racing. The original chase format sucked ass but the win and your in format is working

For those who do win early the incentive to keep winning is to keep others from making the chase. Let's face it, SX is already a circus and what integrity would be lost? This isn't the world championships ....it was created solely for entertainment

Points are still accumulated over the season and into the chase so the privateers can still have goals of making top 15 or 20.
Johnny Depp
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4/2/2015 7:34am
We need a playoff at each race, like it used to be. Stop making me fast forward through endless semis and LCQ's of riders that should already be eliminated.

A 8/4/2/1 format where each race 1/2 the field is eliminated for the night if they don't finish in the top 1/2 of the field.

Elimination format, any size bike, no stock bike rule, no age limit, no support bike class (250's), gate pick by drawing.

If you pay real purses they will be motivated. Then Monster cup type purse for the final playoffs for qualified riders.

Tracks that don't separate the riders as much and make riders fall down at low speeds (see Endurocross) to mix things up.
h&m_cycle
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4/2/2015 7:59am Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 8:02am
Absolutely not. The difference between team sports and racing is that in racing, you are competing against everyone else every week. In football, if a team...
Absolutely not. The difference between team sports and racing is that in racing, you are competing against everyone else every week. In football, if a team has 15 great weeks, and one terrible week, only one of their competition gets the benefits of that terrible week. In racing, if you have a bad week, everyone of your competitors benefits.

For those who want it because they lose interest when the race isn't likely to have a significant effect on the championship, what are you going to do when most of the races don't have a significant effect on the championship? Do you think that riders are going to push that hard early in the season when a 5th place is effectively just as good for the championship as a win. They'll go out, try to get their top 5 finishes every week and stay out of trouble. The whole focus on championships ruins racing. Watch racing for the races themselves.
No, no, no.. they can't cruise before the chase starts, they got to W'IN or they can't WIN the Supercross title. no top 5 will do

It fits somebody like Tomac, crash or win

If you don't win 2 races before the chase starts you can't win the title.
Ashleymx
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4/2/2015 8:07am
No. It keeps getting suggested on the pulpmx show and honestly it would be so stupid for a guy to kill it for the first half of the season building a big points gap, have it reset, then still have a decent end of the season and lose by a few points. We all know the real champ is the the guy that killed it earlier and had the better season overall. Simply not fair.
4/2/2015 8:45am
JB 19 wrote:
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking...
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking.

Regular sports that have a playoffs generally reward teams that have a good regular season and then have the chance to get hot and peak at the right time.

It's accepted in other sports that you can get your shit together in the last 30% of the season and kick everyone's ass and be called the best.

Take something like the top ten in points and start over at round 11 with 1st beginning with 10 points and 10th with none with all other positions filled in with points that reflect their "regular season" ending position. This would give the top guys a small advantage as a reward for their current position when playoffs start.

Think what it could do to the sport right now if Dungey, a gritty Canard, and a fired up Tomac all had a real shot. Add in the intrigue of someone like Roczen making a mad rush to get into the top ten so he has a shot.

I'm about as old school as it gets, but I'll admit that what is going now and how most seasons unfold is as stale as a week old piece of pizza. I'm a sucker for pizza, but that doesn't make it good pizza.
I was thinking about this yesterday. I agree that a "chase" structure is dumb because it 1) makes the initial part of the season meaningless and 2) will probably make racing during the first half really boring as riders ride super safe.

Instead I would like to see riders given 2-3 throwaway rounds. This would do two positive things for the sport:

1) it would close the championship points chase without diminishing the racing at the early rounds
2) If riders knew they had throw away rounds they would likely push harder for a win later in the season
3) it would allow riders to better prioritize safety. With a few throwaway rounds, a rider could sit out some rounds following a bad crash or concussion. If a rider is having a bad night, he doesn't HAVE to push himself into a dangerous situation to stay in the championship hunt.
h&m_cycle
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4/2/2015 9:08am
kevin204 wrote:
No. IMO it's been ruining NASCAR and now is spreading its disease on Arenacross. Keep it out of SX/MX.
How do you explain it made Nascar MORE popular then ever...?
4/2/2015 9:25am Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 9:33am
kevin204 wrote:
No. IMO it's been ruining NASCAR and now is spreading its disease on Arenacross. Keep it out of SX/MX.
h&m_cycle wrote:
How do you explain it made Nascar MORE popular then ever...?
Their numbers have been going down as of late. It worked at first but it's not like MX where you have 4-5 guys capable of winning and you like your guys regardless of skill. 10-20 drivers can win in a given year. If you're driver doesn't make the chase what's the point of watching the last 10 races? They brand their drivers. If Earnhardt didn't make the chase would his fans care to watch or even show up? If he wins and he's not in the chase it means nothing really. It's an empty win. That's my take on it.

They have added the Lucky Dog, first car a lap down getting their lap back.
They introduced the Chase for the top 10.
They went from top 10 to top 12 because 10 just "wasn't enough."
The expanded to top 16.
Then made it a knockout system.
Then changed it to "if you get a win you're in also."

All of this in 10 years.

There is a lot of road racing fans that would watch more if they went to more road courses or even a street circuit like Long Beach. I don't know how that would offend "traditional" fans though.
h&m_cycle
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4/2/2015 9:31am
kevin204 wrote:
No. IMO it's been ruining NASCAR and now is spreading its disease on Arenacross. Keep it out of SX/MX.
h&m_cycle wrote:
How do you explain it made Nascar MORE popular then ever...?
Their numbers have been going down as of late. It worked at first but it's not like MX where you have 4-5 guys capable of winning...
Their numbers have been going down as of late. It worked at first but it's not like MX where you have 4-5 guys capable of winning and you like your guys regardless of skill. 10-20 drivers can win in a given year. If you're driver doesn't make the chase what's the point of watching the last 10 races? They brand their drivers. If Earnhardt didn't make the chase would his fans care to watch or even show up? If he wins and he's not in the chase it means nothing really. It's an empty win. That's my take on it.

They have added the Lucky Dog, first car a lap down getting their lap back.
They introduced the Chase for the top 10.
They went from top 10 to top 12 because 10 just "wasn't enough."
The expanded to top 16.
Then made it a knockout system.
Then changed it to "if you get a win you're in also."

All of this in 10 years.

There is a lot of road racing fans that would watch more if they went to more road courses or even a street circuit like Long Beach. I don't know how that would offend "traditional" fans though.
Who wants to watch Supercross now? Dungey has a 80 point lead, What if Web or Marvin gets hurt, what would be the
point of watching or going to Vegas?
4/2/2015 9:38am
h&m_cycle wrote:
How do you explain it made Nascar MORE popular then ever...?
Their numbers have been going down as of late. It worked at first but it's not like MX where you have 4-5 guys capable of winning...
Their numbers have been going down as of late. It worked at first but it's not like MX where you have 4-5 guys capable of winning and you like your guys regardless of skill. 10-20 drivers can win in a given year. If you're driver doesn't make the chase what's the point of watching the last 10 races? They brand their drivers. If Earnhardt didn't make the chase would his fans care to watch or even show up? If he wins and he's not in the chase it means nothing really. It's an empty win. That's my take on it.

They have added the Lucky Dog, first car a lap down getting their lap back.
They introduced the Chase for the top 10.
They went from top 10 to top 12 because 10 just "wasn't enough."
The expanded to top 16.
Then made it a knockout system.
Then changed it to "if you get a win you're in also."

All of this in 10 years.

There is a lot of road racing fans that would watch more if they went to more road courses or even a street circuit like Long Beach. I don't know how that would offend "traditional" fans though.
h&m_cycle wrote:
Who wants to watch Supercross now? Dungey has a 80 point lead, What if Web or Marvin gets hurt, what would be the point of watching...
Who wants to watch Supercross now? Dungey has a 80 point lead, What if Web or Marvin gets hurt, what would be the
point of watching or going to Vegas?
In 10 years I will remember this as the year Dungey crushed everyone.

This talk didn't exist when Carmichael went 24-0 in 2002 or 2004 or when Stew did it in 2008. Those years were blow outs! We didn't care though because we were amazed at the dominance. Why is this any different?

I remember Villopoto and Townley 2007 not because they were close due to a chase format, but because they matched each other blow for blow for 4 months! Same with Villopoto and Dungey in 2011.
Bob693
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4/2/2015 10:02am
Roczen has missed four rounds and is still 8th in points with a 20 point lead over 10th. A guy would be able to miss 5 rounds and still be crowned champion? No thanks. To become champion you need to be there week in and week out, it's one of the reasons it's so hard to win the title.
h&m_cycle
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4/2/2015 10:04am Edited Date/Time 4/2/2015 10:08am
In 10 years I will remember this as the year Dungey crushed everyone. This talk didn't exist when Carmichael went 24-0 in 2002 or 2004 or...
In 10 years I will remember this as the year Dungey crushed everyone.

This talk didn't exist when Carmichael went 24-0 in 2002 or 2004 or when Stew did it in 2008. Those years were blow outs! We didn't care though because we were amazed at the dominance. Why is this any different?

I remember Villopoto and Townley 2007 not because they were close due to a chase format, but because they matched each other blow for blow for 4 months! Same with Villopoto and Dungey in 2011.
No, Dungey crushed Tomac For the title this year, Anderson, Seely, Bagget, Milsaps, Reed no chance @ a title

Boring Maybe do away with Supercross all together, narrow tracks, too many jumps, not enough passing, injuries

hell, the GP'S are way more interesting.
Zracer
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4/2/2015 10:09am
Flip109 wrote:
I'm for it. The end of the supercross season seems to suck more often than not. What have we got to lose? Try it for a...
I'm for it. The end of the supercross season seems to suck more often than not. What have we got to lose? Try it for a few seasons and if it doesn't work go back to this shit.
What we have to lose is a real champion being decided ,as it is now, VS some arbitrary BS Champion under a "chase" system.
4/2/2015 10:15am
KennyT wrote:
They way nascar is doing it makes every race significant . Win and you are in the playoffs. That would make the fight for the wins...
They way nascar is doing it makes every race significant . Win and you are in the playoffs. That would make the fight for the wins throughout the season extremely intense. No running around in podium position for points

. Imagine it's the last race of the regular season and let's say Tomac had not won yet. He is running in 3rd with 5 laps to go. Win and he is in the championship hunt, 2nd he is out. The intensity would increase and make for incredible racing. The original chase format sucked ass but the win and your in format is working

For those who do win early the incentive to keep winning is to keep others from making the chase. Let's face it, SX is already a circus and what integrity would be lost? This isn't the world championships ....it was created solely for entertainment

Points are still accumulated over the season and into the chase so the privateers can still have goals of making top 15 or 20.
The difference is that drivers in NASCAR aren't as likely to injure themselves and risk missing a large part of the season due to injury. Using the NASCAR system, Ken, Trey, Ryan, Eli and Chad would guranteed a spot in already. Why would they go out there risking injury and missing the "playoffs". They'll go out and get a respectable finish to keep the sponsors happy, but they'll be out there playing it safe, week in, week out.

I haven't watched a NASCAR race since they started The Chase. I quit watching F1 when they went to double points in the final round. I'll quit watching SX if they do this. There are plenty of places for me to get my racing fix. I'll support series that respect the SPORT of racing. I think the sport of racing is inherently exciting, and I don't want, don't need, and certainly won't tolerate the abandonment of fair sporting principles for the sake of "improving the show."
Toste
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4/2/2015 10:29am
Part of the problem is that Supercross has too many rounds. Look at other sports that have long seasons (baseball, hockey, basketball). Their regular season games are boring as hell.

I know a lot of people think "the more races, the better" but there's a point where it just gets too watered down. And seasons like this one where one rider gets a huge lead become a real death march at the end.
TDeath21
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4/2/2015 10:34am
No. That whole concept is fucking stupid.
4/2/2015 10:46am
In 10 years I will remember this as the year Dungey crushed everyone. This talk didn't exist when Carmichael went 24-0 in 2002 or 2004 or...
In 10 years I will remember this as the year Dungey crushed everyone.

This talk didn't exist when Carmichael went 24-0 in 2002 or 2004 or when Stew did it in 2008. Those years were blow outs! We didn't care though because we were amazed at the dominance. Why is this any different?

I remember Villopoto and Townley 2007 not because they were close due to a chase format, but because they matched each other blow for blow for 4 months! Same with Villopoto and Dungey in 2011.
h&m_cycle wrote:
No, Dungey crushed Tomac For the title this year, Anderson, Seely, Bagget, Milsaps, Reed no chance @ a title Boring Maybe do away with Supercross all...
No, Dungey crushed Tomac For the title this year, Anderson, Seely, Bagget, Milsaps, Reed no chance @ a title

Boring Maybe do away with Supercross all together, narrow tracks, too many jumps, not enough passing, injuries

hell, the GP'S are way more interesting.
To win a championship you have to be in contention at the last round. That's what racing a series is all about. It's no coincidence Dunegy never seems to get hurt. That's a skill. It's not his fault Tomac washes out his front end at every other round, Canard got hurt, Roczen grenaded himself twice, Stewart is banned, Villo is tired of it or anything else. A chase format will not fix that.

I don't disagree about the pitfalls of SX but that's where the money is. It's here to stay.I would LOVE to see a Grand National Championship make a return and run one big series, switching between both disciplines every few weeks. It will never happen with two different promoters though.
KennyT
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4/2/2015 10:46am
KennyT wrote:
They way nascar is doing it makes every race significant . Win and you are in the playoffs. That would make the fight for the wins...
They way nascar is doing it makes every race significant . Win and you are in the playoffs. That would make the fight for the wins throughout the season extremely intense. No running around in podium position for points

. Imagine it's the last race of the regular season and let's say Tomac had not won yet. He is running in 3rd with 5 laps to go. Win and he is in the championship hunt, 2nd he is out. The intensity would increase and make for incredible racing. The original chase format sucked ass but the win and your in format is working

For those who do win early the incentive to keep winning is to keep others from making the chase. Let's face it, SX is already a circus and what integrity would be lost? This isn't the world championships ....it was created solely for entertainment

Points are still accumulated over the season and into the chase so the privateers can still have goals of making top 15 or 20.
The difference is that drivers in NASCAR aren't as likely to injure themselves and risk missing a large part of the season due to injury. Using...
The difference is that drivers in NASCAR aren't as likely to injure themselves and risk missing a large part of the season due to injury. Using the NASCAR system, Ken, Trey, Ryan, Eli and Chad would guranteed a spot in already. Why would they go out there risking injury and missing the "playoffs". They'll go out and get a respectable finish to keep the sponsors happy, but they'll be out there playing it safe, week in, week out.

I haven't watched a NASCAR race since they started The Chase. I quit watching F1 when they went to double points in the final round. I'll quit watching SX if they do this. There are plenty of places for me to get my racing fix. I'll support series that respect the SPORT of racing. I think the sport of racing is inherently exciting, and I don't want, don't need, and certainly won't tolerate the abandonment of fair sporting principles for the sake of "improving the show."
Well there is your problem, SX isn't a sport
Falcon
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4/2/2015 10:46am
No playoffs, but I like the idea of fewer races. Then again, Feld wants mo $, mo $, mo $!

One thing you could do is widen the points gap from 1st to 2nd, from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 4th. Maybe go 35, 25, 21, 18, and then so on down the list as before. This would give the win an even bigger points bonus, still reward podium consistency, and allow a rider in Tomac's position to get on a hot streak and really make up points. If there is a rider who has won throughout the season in dominant fashion (Dungey or Musquin, for instance,) he'd still reap the benefits of his dominance anyway.

ChrisB10
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4/2/2015 10:54am
How unfair would it be though for someone like Dungey to dominate all year then say he gets hurt the first playoff race. SX is way too unpredictable for playoffs IMO. With crashes bad starts and Bike problems I dont think you'd always have the best rider come out on top.
NV825
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4/2/2015 11:00am
Not a fan of resetting points, but I am a fan of increasing the opportunities for riders to score points. Pole position from qualifying gets points, a heat race win gets points, and I would prefer they had two main events per class and took an overall winner like in MX.

They NEED to do something. The excitement for SX is horrible right now and they need to change things up.
4/2/2015 11:13am
kijen wrote:
So, we are talking about resetting points to give more guys a chance at the title? what's next, should we give participation points as well....I'm thinking...
So, we are talking about resetting points to give more guys a chance at the title? what's next, should we give participation points as well....I'm thinking everybody has the same opportunity at the beginning of each race and the best racer wins, at the end the series the racer with the most points wins the championship, period.

I get we want to see more and better racing, but that is up to the racers themselves, we can't go all socialist and start penalizing a guy who dominates. Dungy, Villopoto, Stew, and all the other riders who dominated and made racing boring should be given the respect they earned for being the absolute best.

all riders., both factory and privateer don't DESERVE anything....They go out and RACE for points, they get what they EARN, not deserve....

some of the best racing is in the LCQ with those privateers trying to earn a spot in the main...



Regarding your last line,

the only reason a rider qualifies through the LCQ is because they didn't get it done in the heats. So we give them a second chance (semis), with pared-down competition, then a third chance with competition pared even further.

If a rider crashes or his bike fails, the LCQ says he's deserving of a second chance. Do you say he should've earned his way in the first time?

What's the difference between providing a safety net for one race vs. a whole season?

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