KDub..."450's have to go".

3/24/2015 11:08am
how many of these deaths have been on 450's? i thought most of them have been on 250F's,

people say the 500's were too fast and than banned them, they stopped racing them because people stopped buying them, by the time they stopped racing them in the US there were only 3 manufactures racing them,

as for the 125 class, we have one here, Europe has one, maybe its time for the rest of the country's should catch up, everyone has a 65 class and there are only 2 manufactures of them,
Suns_PSD
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Austin, TX, USA
3/24/2015 11:16am
Over and over people want to blame the jumps when the bad accidents don't happen due to large jumps.

It might be scary to see an 80cc bike huck a 100' jump (only the elite racers are doing that to be fair) but that's not the danger zone. The danger zone is ruts, kickers, bike failures, immovable objects like trees and water trucks, and other riders. Remove that stuff and you would have a fraction of the injuries.
neysbo
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2014
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Edelstein, IL, USA
3/24/2015 11:28am
450's are fine, majority of the deaths have actually been on bikes smaller than a 450 so that is not the answer
GATOR
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FR
3/24/2015 11:36am
As usual, DV12 has interesting and wise thoughts on this...

"My thoughts are pretty dark on the subject actually. It's why I don't ride anymore and why my kids don't ride MX. I am honest with you, I am scared to ride now. I always think the worse while I ride. What if my chain breaks on this jump? What if my bike bogs? What if there is a guy laying down at the landing of this big table top? It's why I don't own a bike and I am not ashamed to say it. Supercross and Motocross are dangerous. There is no safety when we let 22 or 40 guys go wide open on engine powered dirt bikes from the start and whoever finishes first gets the title and most of the dough. You can wear all the gear available to protect yourself and people will stil end up in wheel chairs and die. If you change the tracks and make them safe, you can't call it SX anymore. We'll have to make track with only table tops like a SoCal vet track. But, even on vet tracks, people get hurt badly.

You can change the bikes too but to what? Twenty years ago on my home track in France, a 7 year old kid died on a PW50. Power isn't the issue... Even if you make tracks with only table tops and make the riders ride bone stock bikes, guys will still endo somehow or jump on each other. If you want to make the sport safe, the manufactures need to stop making and selling dirt bikes and we need to end this sport. It's that simple. I don't see that happening and tragedies will still be part of our sport/passion. We know that before gearing up every time we go ride and we have to accept the consequences of this very dangerous sport, as bad and tragic as they can be sometimes... "

The Shop

Triton
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3/24/2015 11:58am
Many valid points and in line with why my 4yo is getting a custom set of golf clubs instead of a pw for his 5th birthday. If he wants to ride when he is older that is fine.
Triton
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3/24/2015 12:04pm
As an interesting side note, my old friend in AZ that runs a track made an interesting statement to me one day. He had opened up an am SX track in the back. I had asked if newer (beginner) riders were allowed on it. He said he had to allow it. The moment he restricts one of his tracks (intermediate and above for example) it opens him up to way more liability due to him having to gauge a rider's skill. And say basically that they ride well enough to be on that track. If they get hurt, then they can claim that the track approved their skill to be able to ride on that track therefore they are liable.
3/24/2015 12:28pm
When you ask an injured rider what happened it seems like its always "I came up short on a double or I came up short on a triple". Pretty easy to see the problem. Build MX tracks again. Not excite bike tracks like the earlier gentleman alluded to.
cslacker
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Glendale, AZ, USA
3/24/2015 12:39pm
Triton wrote:
As an interesting side note, my old friend in AZ that runs a track made an interesting statement to me one day. He had opened up...
As an interesting side note, my old friend in AZ that runs a track made an interesting statement to me one day. He had opened up an am SX track in the back. I had asked if newer (beginner) riders were allowed on it. He said he had to allow it. The moment he restricts one of his tracks (intermediate and above for example) it opens him up to way more liability due to him having to gauge a rider's skill. And say basically that they ride well enough to be on that track. If they get hurt, then they can claim that the track approved their skill to be able to ride on that track therefore they are liable.
I live in AZ and all of the SX practice tracks I am aware of require an AMA pro card to ride them. Curious which track if you don't mind?
SF45
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Bay Area, CA, USA
3/24/2015 1:00pm
Little bit out of left field here, but I think limiting suspension travel to about half of what it is today would be interesting. The tracks would have to change, the CG would be a lot lower, the jumps wouldn't huck so high.
dirtdog36
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Nashville, TN, USA
3/24/2015 1:01pm
I don't know how anyone can listen to Fro, KW, JT, Sean from Cobra and not say that there is a problem here

If the government gets involved we will screwed and if the liability insurance gets so high there will be even less tracks

And add DV to another pro that does not want his kid riding
3/24/2015 5:01pm
Moto_Geek wrote:
[b]Speed kills, same thing in a car accident. So if you keep speed, simply modify track obstacle to allow a fast and slow rider the option...
Speed kills, same thing in a car accident. So if you keep speed, simply modify track obstacle to allow a fast and slow rider the option of short land or long landing and trench before every jump so the rider rides down to the jump instead of up so the approaching rider can see the top of the jump and verify riders in a lane or opportunity to determine slower rider exist. Keep this at the amateur level. Modify track before national race, retract after the race. Done..

I did a quick sketch. Purple is the standard double, Blue is safer, and Red would be safest. Build to suit speed, but this basic concept I believe would be a huge step forward in safer jumps. And with plenty of equipment these days, should not be a problem to build. The extra dirt could come from front trench. The only downside is water drainage. but sure we could figure something out. Maybe metal screen over bed of small rocks to prevent pre-jump mud.



So what you think. Can't we just start with obvious stuff for the younger riders. Its the same fun jump, but safer and still the big jump. This then would just be scaled to the size jump you want.


Not a bad thought, but I don't know how many wrecks it would prevent. People's judgement can be just as faulty. This is one example (wreck is at the end), and I remember seeing another one not too long ago just like it.

https://youtu.be/eSifNRVYrm4
Triton
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Redmond, WA, USA
3/24/2015 5:52pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 5:56pm
cslacker wrote:
I live in AZ and all of the SX practice tracks I am aware of require an AMA pro card to ride them. Curious which track...
I live in AZ and all of the SX practice tracks I am aware of require an AMA pro card to ride them. Curious which track if you don't mind?
cslacker -
ET.. it used to be used privately out in the back for MX Schools. Not sure if it's still there. Been living up here for 3 years. Was not entirely a SX track but still fun. [edit] - I don't remember if it officially opened. I know it did a few days here and there. On those days everyone else was allowed. Most days it was usually just myself and a couple other guys that were allowed the key and had to lock ourselves back there until we were done.



Additionally for all you guys saying just make things table tops. Won't work like you think it does. AZ is the living experiment. Watching guys hit bigger tables due to a false sense of safety and wad up because they had no business hitting something wide open in 3rd gear is too much.

Speedworld notoriously had larger tables due to complaints that people didn't want to roll stuff.. it wasn't fun. But guess what, they were rolling stuff because their brain worked and told them not to hit it. Fill in the dirt and all of a sudden brain turns off and they still end up hurt. I'm not saying it can't be made safer but the same mindset is being used in this thread in some cases. Tables != Safer in all cases, especially when talking about longer jumps. AZ tracks are living proof and you can see it regularly.
TeamCramp
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USA
3/24/2015 6:28pm
It may be a little of all the issues, but from my viewpoint the losses I have personally seen were caused because something went wrong and riders did the same thing as falling out 2-3 story buildings. When tracks didn't have these jumps I remember the racing being just as good if not better. Lake Whitney in the 80's, Ponca City.. always super racing and I never remember us loosing a rider on the track.

The last two big amateur races I have been to, someone has lost their life. I went for 25 yrs without seeing this happen. I watched 65's last week clearing gap doubles, why because they are there and they have to, to be competitive.. If they weren't on the track they wouldn't do them and racing would be just as good.. Lets leave SX to the Pros, and tame these tracks back for amateur racing... before its too late!
TerryB
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Cambridge, MN, USA
3/24/2015 6:33pm
Just throwing class ideas out...

125/150T/175F

250T/250F

300T/350F


Tracks need to be safer too.
SLO1667
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Chicago, IL, USA
3/24/2015 6:35pm
KennyT wrote:
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as...
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as a top notch surgeon. One of those guys that still travels the world to give speaking engagements.

Anyway we were talking today and I brought up the issue of young kids dying on a pretty regular basis in what is my favorite hobby. He rattled on for hours and honestly most of it went over my head but I did take in a couple of things from our discussion.

First of all he had no idea children were out racing like they do. I pulled up a couple of videos on my ipad and he was amazed at these small kids flying through the air on their bikes and he was not surprised there are fatalities. He told me due to a child's body, and mainly his brain/skull area, That there is no way it can take the trauma that a fully mature adult body could withstand. He threw out the age of 23 for skull maturity, I have no idea. He also told me what I have thought all along, and that is one day there will be a parent that will bring this into the courts when they lose a child and once that happens it's going to be over. I asked him what he meant by that and he said the liabilty cost will be so high and the fear of multi million dollar judgements will have the tracks shut down.

It will be interesting to see if any changes will be made in the sport if this trend continues. I'm not concerned with the pros, they know the risk. it's the kids that I hate hearing about and I'm not too sure they understand the consequences
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
#991
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3/24/2015 6:45pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 6:47pm
KennyT wrote:
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as...
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as a top notch surgeon. One of those guys that still travels the world to give speaking engagements.

Anyway we were talking today and I brought up the issue of young kids dying on a pretty regular basis in what is my favorite hobby. He rattled on for hours and honestly most of it went over my head but I did take in a couple of things from our discussion.

First of all he had no idea children were out racing like they do. I pulled up a couple of videos on my ipad and he was amazed at these small kids flying through the air on their bikes and he was not surprised there are fatalities. He told me due to a child's body, and mainly his brain/skull area, That there is no way it can take the trauma that a fully mature adult body could withstand. He threw out the age of 23 for skull maturity, I have no idea. He also told me what I have thought all along, and that is one day there will be a parent that will bring this into the courts when they lose a child and once that happens it's going to be over. I asked him what he meant by that and he said the liabilty cost will be so high and the fear of multi million dollar judgements will have the tracks shut down.

It will be interesting to see if any changes will be made in the sport if this trend continues. I'm not concerned with the pros, they know the risk. it's the kids that I hate hearing about and I'm not too sure they understand the consequences
SLO1667 wrote:
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic...
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
I'm betting you thought that was an Intelligent reply

Ya poor bugger. Don't worry, relevance is way over rated anyway.
bvm111
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3/24/2015 6:56pm
listened to the Pulp show today at work.... really good listen and great dialogue from some of the industry insiders that know and give a shit about the sport for over 2 hours.

If you make statements like "its motocross" or "they will make bigger longer table tops" means you didn't listen and are un willing to contribute to the discussion.

when I am 4th gear tapped down a rough straight on my 2006 KX250 and some fat ass motors by me on a 450 there is something wrong
hvaughn88
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3/24/2015 7:09pm
KennyT wrote:
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as...
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as a top notch surgeon. One of those guys that still travels the world to give speaking engagements.

Anyway we were talking today and I brought up the issue of young kids dying on a pretty regular basis in what is my favorite hobby. He rattled on for hours and honestly most of it went over my head but I did take in a couple of things from our discussion.

First of all he had no idea children were out racing like they do. I pulled up a couple of videos on my ipad and he was amazed at these small kids flying through the air on their bikes and he was not surprised there are fatalities. He told me due to a child's body, and mainly his brain/skull area, That there is no way it can take the trauma that a fully mature adult body could withstand. He threw out the age of 23 for skull maturity, I have no idea. He also told me what I have thought all along, and that is one day there will be a parent that will bring this into the courts when they lose a child and once that happens it's going to be over. I asked him what he meant by that and he said the liabilty cost will be so high and the fear of multi million dollar judgements will have the tracks shut down.

It will be interesting to see if any changes will be made in the sport if this trend continues. I'm not concerned with the pros, they know the risk. it's the kids that I hate hearing about and I'm not too sure they understand the consequences
SLO1667 wrote:
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic...
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
Well with those bikes and cars, they are still subject to traffic laws and insurance is required of them. Football is undergoing this exact discussion and lawsuits are constantly popping up. Lane splitting, well, you got me there. I still don't understand that one, haha
#991
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Melbourne, AU
3/24/2015 7:14pm
KennyT wrote:
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as...
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as a top notch surgeon. One of those guys that still travels the world to give speaking engagements.

Anyway we were talking today and I brought up the issue of young kids dying on a pretty regular basis in what is my favorite hobby. He rattled on for hours and honestly most of it went over my head but I did take in a couple of things from our discussion.

First of all he had no idea children were out racing like they do. I pulled up a couple of videos on my ipad and he was amazed at these small kids flying through the air on their bikes and he was not surprised there are fatalities. He told me due to a child's body, and mainly his brain/skull area, That there is no way it can take the trauma that a fully mature adult body could withstand. He threw out the age of 23 for skull maturity, I have no idea. He also told me what I have thought all along, and that is one day there will be a parent that will bring this into the courts when they lose a child and once that happens it's going to be over. I asked him what he meant by that and he said the liabilty cost will be so high and the fear of multi million dollar judgements will have the tracks shut down.

It will be interesting to see if any changes will be made in the sport if this trend continues. I'm not concerned with the pros, they know the risk. it's the kids that I hate hearing about and I'm not too sure they understand the consequences
SLO1667 wrote:
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic...
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
hvaughn88 wrote:
Well with those bikes and cars, they are still subject to traffic laws and insurance is required of them. Football is undergoing this exact discussion and...
Well with those bikes and cars, they are still subject to traffic laws and insurance is required of them. Football is undergoing this exact discussion and lawsuits are constantly popping up. Lane splitting, well, you got me there. I still don't understand that one, haha
Lane splitting. Why would you climb a mountain? Because you can.
hvaughn88
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3/24/2015 7:15pm
SLO1667 wrote:
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic...
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
hvaughn88 wrote:
Well with those bikes and cars, they are still subject to traffic laws and insurance is required of them. Football is undergoing this exact discussion and...
Well with those bikes and cars, they are still subject to traffic laws and insurance is required of them. Football is undergoing this exact discussion and lawsuits are constantly popping up. Lane splitting, well, you got me there. I still don't understand that one, haha
#991 wrote:
Lane splitting. Why would you climb a mountain? Because you can.
Haha, I reckon
Jaybird67k
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Vidor, TX, USA
3/24/2015 7:40pm
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we will make it a 1000' instead of 1/4 mile since most large engine catastrophes happen in the last few feet of the strip. Jim Head, a well renown racer raised hell and said don't you see we will just push the engines harder and we will still have more explosions and crashes.
He was right because they are setting record times at shorter distances now and blowing up just as many engines and it's no safer.
Don't you guy's see?
You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt.
Anyone who disagrees needs to take up a different sport such as ice curling.
Kevin Windham just sees a job opportunity........that's all.

Jason
#991
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Melbourne, AU
3/24/2015 7:45pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 7:48pm
Jaybird67k wrote:
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we...
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we will make it a 1000' instead of 1/4 mile since most large engine catastrophes happen in the last few feet of the strip. Jim Head, a well renown racer raised hell and said don't you see we will just push the engines harder and we will still have more explosions and crashes.
He was right because they are setting record times at shorter distances now and blowing up just as many engines and it's no safer.
Don't you guy's see?
You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt.
Anyone who disagrees needs to take up a different sport such as ice curling.
Kevin Windham just sees a job opportunity........that's all.

Jason
Huh A brighter person would have lengthened the run off areas/shutdown areas.

The whole Idea of drag racing is to get faster. That's gonna happen no matter how long the tracks are. It's the whole point of the sport.

The Idea Isn't to eliminate the danger. The Idea is to mitigate the danger as much as possible. That really shouldn't be so hard to comprehend Dry

You want to take on gravity with jumps that launch you 30+ feet into the air. Gravity will have It's fair share of wins.
RMRider1
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Syracuse, NY, USA
3/24/2015 7:47pm
bvm111 wrote:
listened to the Pulp show today at work.... really good listen and great dialogue from some of the industry insiders that know and give a shit...
listened to the Pulp show today at work.... really good listen and great dialogue from some of the industry insiders that know and give a shit about the sport for over 2 hours.

If you make statements like "its motocross" or "they will make bigger longer table tops" means you didn't listen and are un willing to contribute to the discussion.

when I am 4th gear tapped down a rough straight on my 2006 KX250 and some fat ass motors by me on a 450 there is something wrong
What pisses me off is if the fat guy is sitting down too!!
#991
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3/24/2015 7:58pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 7:59pm
bvm111 wrote:
listened to the Pulp show today at work.... really good listen and great dialogue from some of the industry insiders that know and give a shit...
listened to the Pulp show today at work.... really good listen and great dialogue from some of the industry insiders that know and give a shit about the sport for over 2 hours.

If you make statements like "its motocross" or "they will make bigger longer table tops" means you didn't listen and are un willing to contribute to the discussion.

when I am 4th gear tapped down a rough straight on my 2006 KX250 and some fat ass motors by me on a 450 there is something wrong
RMRider1 wrote:
What pisses me off is if the fat guy is sitting down too!!
The fat guy would most likely still pass you on the 250 2T as well. While your rear tire skims across the surface, the fat guy's rear tire is hooking up Tongue .

Light weights!
cslacker
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Glendale, AZ, USA
3/24/2015 9:08pm
Triton wrote:
cslacker - ET.. it used to be used privately out in the back for MX Schools. Not sure if it's still there. Been living up here...
cslacker -
ET.. it used to be used privately out in the back for MX Schools. Not sure if it's still there. Been living up here for 3 years. Was not entirely a SX track but still fun. [edit] - I don't remember if it officially opened. I know it did a few days here and there. On those days everyone else was allowed. Most days it was usually just myself and a couple other guys that were allowed the key and had to lock ourselves back there until we were done.



Additionally for all you guys saying just make things table tops. Won't work like you think it does. AZ is the living experiment. Watching guys hit bigger tables due to a false sense of safety and wad up because they had no business hitting something wide open in 3rd gear is too much.

Speedworld notoriously had larger tables due to complaints that people didn't want to roll stuff.. it wasn't fun. But guess what, they were rolling stuff because their brain worked and told them not to hit it. Fill in the dirt and all of a sudden brain turns off and they still end up hurt. I'm not saying it can't be made safer but the same mindset is being used in this thread in some cases. Tables != Safer in all cases, especially when talking about longer jumps. AZ tracks are living proof and you can see it regularly.
Gotcha, thanks. I actually rode that track a few months ago when the peewees were on the main track. I didn't realize it was supposed to be supercross. It was relatively tame and not maintained at all but I can see where it once would have been way out of my league. Acp and motoland are the 2 I was referring to that require pro licenses.
speedworld is shut down now but when it was open I thought it was a pretty solid and safe track. some of the doubles and triples at acp and canyon, not so much. But acp has 4 tracks now so you can choose. which is important for people like me.
brimx153
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3/24/2015 9:16pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
Over and over people want to blame the jumps when the bad accidents don't happen due to large jumps. It might be scary to see an...
Over and over people want to blame the jumps when the bad accidents don't happen due to large jumps.

It might be scary to see an 80cc bike huck a 100' jump (only the elite racers are doing that to be fair) but that's not the danger zone. The danger zone is ruts, kickers, bike failures, immovable objects like trees and water trucks, and other riders. Remove that stuff and you would have a fraction of the injuries.
Man do u even look at this sport. Look at the pro s ,were do they get injured the most JUMPS , I d be here all night if I had to name riders who got hurt really badly by crashing on big jumps . they are def the most dangerous part of the track. And all pro s are skilled enough to hit big jump s
burn1986
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3/24/2015 9:55pm
Windham has some good points, but he has absolutely no power to change anything. Its good he's vocal I guess, but it means nothing.
#991
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3/24/2015 9:59pm
burn1986 wrote:
Windham has some good points, but he has absolutely no power to change anything. Its good he's vocal I guess, but it means nothing.
If a few Moto Dad's and younger wanna be's were listening last night and took in what he had to say, it meant something.

You have to start somewhere. At least the ball is now rolling. It'll be Interesting to see how much momentum it can pick up.
cslacker
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3/24/2015 10:01pm
burn1986 wrote:
Windham has some good points, but he has absolutely no power to change anything. Its good he's vocal I guess, but it means nothing.
I get Windham saying it. What surprises me is Fro. He works for an oem with no 125.
burn1986
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3/24/2015 10:02pm
You're right, there is still some leeway to changing stuff in the amateur ranks.

Post a reply to: KDub..."450's have to go".

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