Everybody agree the 125 class is badly needed?

Berm
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Fantasy
3/24/2015 9:19am
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f?

You might argue that they do now, but that isn't the case. They compete in the feeder class currently factory vs privateer

If Dungey/Tomac/Canard/Roczen...ect were all on 250f bikes, they would be on the best bikes, and it would take $$$$$$ for privateer to have a somewhat competitive bike. At least now, a privateer has a small chance on a 450 because they don't have to spend thousands on motor packages. Not to mention, everyone harps about the high costs of 250f's, now you want to force the privateer to run a high-strung 250f, whereas now, they have a choice to be a privateer on a 450 at a smaller cost?

Those guys running 450's on a privateer effort would have much higher costs if forced to run 250f's. Which means they are less likely to be a privateer in the 450 class.
The only reason privateers can compete in the current 250 class is because of the lack of talent pool in the 250 class compared to the 450's.
mxb2
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3/24/2015 9:25am
newmann wrote:
You must be new here! Us few Vitards are supposed to buy up every new 2 stroke that hits the shores and demand more. Don't mind...
You must be new here! Us few Vitards are supposed to buy up every new 2 stroke that hits the shores and demand more. Don't mind mxb2, his mind is clouded from the scent of all those unwashed riders jerseys he is hoarding in his basement.
mxb2 wrote:
I should put my jersey collection with your bikes, they all could sit there unusedWoohoo
newmann wrote:
I have extra hangers. Send them on.
Haha your handlebars are not hangers, that bike you have is to ride!Sick
mxb2
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3/24/2015 9:27am
newmann wrote:
Look everyone, it's Captain 4 Stroke Chest Thumper!



Tongue
mxb2 wrote:
I ride both,, you should try to ride your 2 stroke and be happy , What are you doing about the problem? I love both bikes...
I ride both,, you should try to ride your 2 stroke and be happy , What are you doing about the problem? I love both bikes and unless i will do something about it, i will not complain.
reded wrote:
The man has purchased a new two stroke and is willing to sponsor a rider if the class were available. How much more should he be...
The man has purchased a new two stroke and is willing to sponsor a rider if the class were available. How much more should he be willing to do?
Maybe start a series, plenty of tracks, 2 stroke options, easy to talk on vital than actually doing something about it.
seth505
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3/24/2015 9:34am
Berm wrote:
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f? You might...
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f?

You might argue that they do now, but that isn't the case. They compete in the feeder class currently factory vs privateer

If Dungey/Tomac/Canard/Roczen...ect were all on 250f bikes, they would be on the best bikes, and it would take $$$$$$ for privateer to have a somewhat competitive bike. At least now, a privateer has a small chance on a 450 because they don't have to spend thousands on motor packages. Not to mention, everyone harps about the high costs of 250f's, now you want to force the privateer to run a high-strung 250f, whereas now, they have a choice to be a privateer on a 450 at a smaller cost?

Those guys running 450's on a privateer effort would have much higher costs if forced to run 250f's. Which means they are less likely to be a privateer in the 450 class.
The only reason privateers can compete in the current 250 class is because of the lack of talent pool in the 250 class compared to the 450's.
IMO, I agree with Kdub that 450s are too much. So you have a valid/proven point about the 250f and it's costs.

Which brings us back to cc vs cc, the 250 2 stroke is a much better premier series race bike when considering team costs, privateer costs and the delta between the two.

The Shop

Mouse153
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3/24/2015 9:48am
I don't know if they're "needed" but who doesn't love watching the 125s race? Whether its a schoolboy class or old guys like me they are some much fun it would be cool to see them as an exhibition class at SX & MX events.

I also think they're safer for the younger kids. I don't have any data or proof of that but as a parent I will move my oldest son from his 85 to a 125 instead of a 250f until he's older, bigger and stronger The thought of putting him on a 250 straight off and 85 scares the hell out of me.
GIwasB4
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3/24/2015 9:53am
A. DLeary wrote:
Threads like this CLEARLY show who races and who does not. Almost all tracks have a two stroke only class and most also have a 125...
Threads like this CLEARLY show who races and who does not.

Almost all tracks have a two stroke only class and most also have a 125 class
MxSports, at almost all major amature races has multiple two stroke classes so kids are not required to move up from an 80 to a 250f.

Considering MOST racers don't get any contingency, the only thing keeping you guys from racing two-strokes is your own stupidity.

As far as the pro MX/SX series goes, the two-stroke mafia is our sports equivalent to hipsters.
Unfortunately, he's correct. ^
A. DLeary
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3/24/2015 9:54am
Berm wrote:
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f? You might...
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f?

You might argue that they do now, but that isn't the case. They compete in the feeder class currently factory vs privateer

If Dungey/Tomac/Canard/Roczen...ect were all on 250f bikes, they would be on the best bikes, and it would take $$$$$$ for privateer to have a somewhat competitive bike. At least now, a privateer has a small chance on a 450 because they don't have to spend thousands on motor packages. Not to mention, everyone harps about the high costs of 250f's, now you want to force the privateer to run a high-strung 250f, whereas now, they have a choice to be a privateer on a 450 at a smaller cost?

Those guys running 450's on a privateer effort would have much higher costs if forced to run 250f's. Which means they are less likely to be a privateer in the 450 class.
The only reason privateers can compete in the current 250 class is because of the lack of talent pool in the 250 class compared to the 450's.
seth505 wrote:
IMO, I agree with Kdub that 450s are too much. So you have a valid/proven point about the 250f and it's costs. Which brings us back...
IMO, I agree with Kdub that 450s are too much. So you have a valid/proven point about the 250f and it's costs.

Which brings us back to cc vs cc, the 250 2 stroke is a much better premier series race bike when considering team costs, privateer costs and the delta between the two.
None of you remember privateers trying to compete with the factory 2-strokes or you wouldn't say that. The 4 strokes have helped bridge the gap between factory and privateer bikes like never before.

When KW14 was on his 125 and I was going to races with a friend/privateer the common saying in the pits was, "I only want to beat the top placing privateer because we can't touch those factory bikes." Fast forward to a few years ago when I was helping a kid race pro and the common saying in the pits was, "I want top ten."

Hell, the gap has been narrowed so much between factory and privateer bikes that even Vitalmx has a hard time figuring out who is and who is not a privateer.

I'm all for two-strokes being a part of the sport, but people need to look at the past for what it was, and not through rose colored glasses.

seth505
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3/24/2015 9:59am
Berm wrote:
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f? You might...
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f?

You might argue that they do now, but that isn't the case. They compete in the feeder class currently factory vs privateer

If Dungey/Tomac/Canard/Roczen...ect were all on 250f bikes, they would be on the best bikes, and it would take $$$$$$ for privateer to have a somewhat competitive bike. At least now, a privateer has a small chance on a 450 because they don't have to spend thousands on motor packages. Not to mention, everyone harps about the high costs of 250f's, now you want to force the privateer to run a high-strung 250f, whereas now, they have a choice to be a privateer on a 450 at a smaller cost?

Those guys running 450's on a privateer effort would have much higher costs if forced to run 250f's. Which means they are less likely to be a privateer in the 450 class.
The only reason privateers can compete in the current 250 class is because of the lack of talent pool in the 250 class compared to the 450's.
seth505 wrote:
IMO, I agree with Kdub that 450s are too much. So you have a valid/proven point about the 250f and it's costs. Which brings us back...
IMO, I agree with Kdub that 450s are too much. So you have a valid/proven point about the 250f and it's costs.

Which brings us back to cc vs cc, the 250 2 stroke is a much better premier series race bike when considering team costs, privateer costs and the delta between the two.
A. DLeary wrote:
None of you remember privateers trying to compete with the factory 2-strokes or you wouldn't say that. The 4 strokes have helped bridge the gap between...
None of you remember privateers trying to compete with the factory 2-strokes or you wouldn't say that. The 4 strokes have helped bridge the gap between factory and privateer bikes like never before.

When KW14 was on his 125 and I was going to races with a friend/privateer the common saying in the pits was, "I only want to beat the top placing privateer because we can't touch those factory bikes." Fast forward to a few years ago when I was helping a kid race pro and the common saying in the pits was, "I want top ten."

Hell, the gap has been narrowed so much between factory and privateer bikes that even Vitalmx has a hard time figuring out who is and who is not a privateer.

I'm all for two-strokes being a part of the sport, but people need to look at the past for what it was, and not through rose colored glasses.

What you are saying is correct but I think only with the 450. They are separate issues but 1) I think the 450cc is too much bike and 2) yes, privateers are able to close the gab only because it is on the side of too much bike, you can only use so much power/muscle.
PEPE001
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3/24/2015 10:14am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 10:16am
steveada wrote:
OK folks, time to put your money where your mouth is. First one with a solid cash offer gets a free T-Shirt.

https://augusta.craigslist.org/mcy/4930230347.html
Would trade it right away towards my CRF20R 2011

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/mcy/4932995744.html

Still do I get the t-shirt?
Make an offer
croom mx
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3/24/2015 10:43am
Its good common sense to have a 125cc class so that the change from 85cc minis is smoother than going straight to 250cc. It also cost alot less for a parent to pay for.
Frodad78
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3/24/2015 10:43am
How I would love to see a full gate of fast dudes on 125s again. They are by far my favorite bike to ride, and boy does it motivate a dude on a 450 when you get behind them. Whistling
A. DLeary
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3/24/2015 10:52am
seth505 wrote:
What you are saying is correct but I think only with the 450. They are separate issues but 1) I think the 450cc is too much...
What you are saying is correct but I think only with the 450. They are separate issues but 1) I think the 450cc is too much bike and 2) yes, privateers are able to close the gab only because it is on the side of too much bike, you can only use so much power/muscle.
I would 100 percent support limiting the CC's at amature racing to say 300cc's but if you eliminate the 450 class at the pro level you effectively give all the power back to the few factory teams that are left. You're basically saying privateers, that already struggle to match the bikes the factories have, are not invited to the party anymore.

No current pros that are racing in America are asking for less power from their bikes, and no teams are asking for less power.

I think the bigger issue is the refusal for some people to accept that amature racing does not follow, nor should it follow the rules of PRO racing. They are two different entities that require different resources to exist.

A. DLeary
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3/24/2015 10:53am
croom mx wrote:
Its good common sense to have a 125cc class so that the change from 85cc minis is smoother than going straight to 250cc. It also cost...
Its good common sense to have a 125cc class so that the change from 85cc minis is smoother than going straight to 250cc. It also cost alot less for a parent to pay for.
Jesus....
#991
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3/24/2015 11:06am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 11:09am
It's a numbers game. Like any business. America is where the market is. You have the numbers to dictate exactly what the Japanese manufactures produce. If the AMA put new rules in place tomorrow with lower CC restrictions, the Factories would be designing new bikes that afternoon.

As for 125's. There were 2 reasons I went back to a 125 (144).

Number 1. Fun factor

Number 2. My skills were deteriorating on 4T's. They make you lazy. Was time to get back to doing some Real riding.
Zracer
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3/24/2015 11:07am
Berm wrote:
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f? You might...
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f?

You might argue that they do now, but that isn't the case. They compete in the feeder class currently factory vs privateer

If Dungey/Tomac/Canard/Roczen...ect were all on 250f bikes, they would be on the best bikes, and it would take $$$$$$ for privateer to have a somewhat competitive bike. At least now, a privateer has a small chance on a 450 because they don't have to spend thousands on motor packages. Not to mention, everyone harps about the high costs of 250f's, now you want to force the privateer to run a high-strung 250f, whereas now, they have a choice to be a privateer on a 450 at a smaller cost?

Those guys running 450's on a privateer effort would have much higher costs if forced to run 250f's. Which means they are less likely to be a privateer in the 450 class.
The only reason privateers can compete in the current 250 class is because of the lack of talent pool in the 250 class compared to the 450's.
Totally agree that a 250 4 stroke premiere pro class would be bad for privateers. Privateers liked the old 500 2 stroke class too and that was canned, so it wouldnt be a 1st.
erikcrvjl
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3/24/2015 11:22am
I would love to see it take the place of the current 250f class. Then making a 250f premier class just like the 450s, with no pointing out, so guys like Anderson, Weimer, who were arguably better 250f riders, could continue racing them. Because at this rate, we will start having way too many top level pros in the 450 class, and many racer's careers will be cut short.
Mr Bean
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3/24/2015 11:59am
#991 wrote:
It's a numbers game. Like any business. America is where the market is. You have the numbers to dictate exactly what the Japanese manufactures produce. If...
It's a numbers game. Like any business. America is where the market is. You have the numbers to dictate exactly what the Japanese manufactures produce. If the AMA put new rules in place tomorrow with lower CC restrictions, the Factories would be designing new bikes that afternoon.

As for 125's. There were 2 reasons I went back to a 125 (144).

Number 1. Fun factor

Number 2. My skills were deteriorating on 4T's. They make you lazy. Was time to get back to doing some Real riding.
You mean if the factories told the AMA to put new rules in place, right?

Remember: AMA = puppet.
bturner26x
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3/24/2015 12:27pm
OnRails wrote:
God, you are so old it shows. Please just give this shit up. I know you want "to live the dream" again and rock out with...
God, you are so old it shows. Please just give this shit up. I know you want "to live the dream" again and rock out with your cock out to Led Zeppelin, smoke meth in staging then bang out a 45 minute moto on a 600 two stroke but IT'S OVER DUDES.

Go back into your man caves and put in your 1985 VCR tape of goddamn I don't know and I don't care SX and live it up all you want.

Change is really hard for old people, clearly. It's been like 10 years and you guys still circle jerk each other to the high heavens.

Keep it real bros. 2 strokes for life.
Valid point... It seems as if the 2stroke guys are almost exploiting these deaths to further their 2stroke agenda. Not cool. I'm sure theres alot of other things that can be done to increase rider saftey than just throwing everyone on 2strokes again. Its a dirtbike, your going to get hurt reguardless. I've wadded plenty hard on my smokers growing up just as I have on my strokers.
cslacker
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3/24/2015 12:27pm
A. DLeary wrote:
I would 100 percent support limiting the CC's at amature racing to say 300cc's but if you eliminate the 450 class at the pro level you...
I would 100 percent support limiting the CC's at amature racing to say 300cc's but if you eliminate the 450 class at the pro level you effectively give all the power back to the few factory teams that are left. You're basically saying privateers, that already struggle to match the bikes the factories have, are not invited to the party anymore.

No current pros that are racing in America are asking for less power from their bikes, and no teams are asking for less power.

I think the bigger issue is the refusal for some people to accept that amature racing does not follow, nor should it follow the rules of PRO racing. They are two different entities that require different resources to exist.

While I know the amateur rules are different I do believe the pro rules directly affect amateur riders decisions. I think that this Australian MX1 riders thoughts sum it up perfectly(don't pay attention to the whiny tone if possible):

Jacob Wright – CDR Yamaha MX1 rider:
If it was up to me, I’d make the two-strokes a separate class. At the end of the day it’s all well and good for them to race the four-strokes, but it’s not fair and it’s not making the two-stroke racers ride any better – they’re just on faster bikes. If they want to make it overseas in Europe or the US they’ll have to ride a four-stroke. Even stepping up to the MX1 they need to learn to race four-strokes, so if they’re serious about their careers, why not just get on one and be done with it? You’re going to get noticed by teams a lot more riding a four-stroke than you are a two-stroke.

There are so many riders out there at the amateur level (parents and riders alike) that feel that their only option is a 250f/450f if they ever have a chance at advancing their "careers". As you mentioned before I agree there should be cc limits in place at the amateur level as well as class requirements prior to moving to the next size bike/class. I also agree that the 450f makes for a more level playing field with professional privateers but that is it's own issue.
moose man
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3/24/2015 12:39pm
I think all kids racing need to spend time on a 125 but as far as pros and the bikes there on leave them alone
Falcon
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3/24/2015 12:42pm
I will buy a 125 for my kids before they get to ride a 250F, period.

1) It is safer because it is lighter and slower.
2) It will make its rider faster, more creative with lines and less lazy with practice.
3) 2-strokes truck, 4-strokes suck. Tongue

Thank you, that is all.
3/24/2015 12:55pm
There have been two fatalities at the nearest local track in the last 18 months. The most recent was a rider on a YZ125. It is track design as much as it is the bikes.
PEPE001
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3/24/2015 1:10pm
There have been two fatalities at the nearest local track in the last 18 months. The most recent was a rider on a YZ125. It is...
There have been two fatalities at the nearest local track in the last 18 months. The most recent was a rider on a YZ125. It is track design as much as it is the bikes.
Most incidents I saw so far as all about track design!
So many accidents can be prevented with a different track design.

It is not the bike, there I a throttle what should be operated based on real skills not wanted skills!

There are roads without speed limit, would you go full throttle no matter what?
If you can maybe but always you will judge can I go that fast or not.
Why doesn't it work on a MX Bike?
moose man
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3/24/2015 1:11pm
There have been two fatalities at the nearest local track in the last 18 months. The most recent was a rider on a YZ125. It is...
There have been two fatalities at the nearest local track in the last 18 months. The most recent was a rider on a YZ125. It is track design as much as it is the bikes.
U can change the tracks all u want but kids can still have crazy crashes on the smallest of jumps and the slowest of bike its a crazy sport and u as apparent accept that when u let your son our daughter swing a leg over the bike
GrapeApe
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3/24/2015 1:59pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 2:00pm
croom mx wrote:
Its good common sense to have a 125cc class so that the change from 85cc minis is smoother than going straight to 250cc. It also cost...
Its good common sense to have a 125cc class so that the change from 85cc minis is smoother than going straight to 250cc. It also cost alot less for a parent to pay for.
A. DLeary wrote:
Jesus....
Stop trying. In every one of these nauseating threads I bring up the schoolboy and 2 stroke classes, and literally the next post will be "it's crazy that we force our kids to go from an 85 to a 250". Going from an 85 to a 250 and skipping the schoolboy class is a choice, not something forced on anyone.
3/24/2015 2:22pm
A. DLeary wrote:
Threads like this CLEARLY show who races and who does not. Almost all tracks have a two stroke only class and most also have a 125...
Threads like this CLEARLY show who races and who does not.

Almost all tracks have a two stroke only class and most also have a 125 class
MxSports, at almost all major amature races has multiple two stroke classes so kids are not required to move up from an 80 to a 250f.

Considering MOST racers don't get any contingency, the only thing keeping you guys from racing two-strokes is your own stupidity.

As far as the pro MX/SX series goes, the two-stroke mafia is our sports equivalent to hipsters.
someone talking sense on Vital, great to see,

I love 125's, i have one in my shed, there are plenty of places to race it as well,
Crush
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3/24/2015 2:41pm
Berm wrote:
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f? You might...
Making the 250f the premier class will destroy the premier class privateer. Do you really think a privateer can compete against the factory 250f?

You might argue that they do now, but that isn't the case. They compete in the feeder class currently factory vs privateer

If Dungey/Tomac/Canard/Roczen...ect were all on 250f bikes, they would be on the best bikes, and it would take $$$$$$ for privateer to have a somewhat competitive bike. At least now, a privateer has a small chance on a 450 because they don't have to spend thousands on motor packages. Not to mention, everyone harps about the high costs of 250f's, now you want to force the privateer to run a high-strung 250f, whereas now, they have a choice to be a privateer on a 450 at a smaller cost?

Those guys running 450's on a privateer effort would have much higher costs if forced to run 250f's. Which means they are less likely to be a privateer in the 450 class.
The only reason privateers can compete in the current 250 class is because of the lack of talent pool in the 250 class compared to the 450's.
The factory guys will always be on the best bikes, but as it stands now, the entry class where privateers should be honing their skills they can't afford to race, both due to bike costs and low purse... so they race the 450 class. And there is what? A dozen guys?

How many amateur families drop out/never start every year because their competitive 250eff motor program is too much? The sport has more of an issue in regards to rising costs that affect its base participation numbers than the livelihoods of a few blokes trying to chase the dream on a 450.a

Reality is, just like the latest gear from Fox, the kids and their families want to be on what the pros are on...
seth505
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3/24/2015 3:01pm
^agreed. I don't even think anyone complained about not being able to race their 2 stroke locally. We all know kids CAN race a 125 after getting off an 85 but what percentage start off on a 250f because 1) it is available 2) easier to ride 3) they are what you need to ride to be on a pro team 4) they are (not) the next big gift to moto...

Post a reply to: Everybody agree the 125 class is badly needed?

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