Shorts bike, weight?

Olson
Profile picture for user Olson
Posts
4605
Joined
4/14/2012
Location
SE
Olson
Edited Date/Time 1/8/2015 10:24am
Anyone know the number? GuyB? Since Dungeys bike was so close to the weight limit at tech inspection at A1, shouldn't Andrew Short's bike technically have been under the weight limit since he uses air forks and air shock? It must be the dream for a mechanic to be forced to add weight and not shave off. He got the possibility to chose were on the bike he wants to add weight. Andrew has always been a good starter and with this setup it will be hard to challenge for the holeshot award.

|
Gringoe
Profile picture for user Gringoe
Posts
1586
Joined
4/12/2014
Location
MP
Gringoe 1/7/2015 3:54pm
1/7/2015 3:54pm
Better question, do they treat weight like they treat sound? (Cheat)
Cashmore
Profile picture for user Cashmore
Posts
784
Joined
9/12/2012
Location
Granbury, TX, USA
Cashmore 1/7/2015 3:57pm
1/7/2015 3:57pm
Gringoe wrote:
Better question, do they treat weight like they treat sound? (Cheat)
I'm sure they won't pass inspection to race without meeting the weight limit...
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35722
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
GuyB 1/7/2015 4:05pm
1/7/2015 4:05pm
Olson wrote:
Anyone know the number? GuyB? Since Dungeys bike was so close to the weight limit at tech inspection at A1, shouldn't Andrew Short's bike technically have...
Anyone know the number? GuyB? Since Dungeys bike was so close to the weight limit at tech inspection at A1, shouldn't Andrew Short's bike technically have been under the weight limit since he uses air forks and air shock? It must be the dream for a mechanic to be forced to add weight and not shave off. He got the possibility to chose were on the bike he wants to add weight. Andrew has always been a good starter and with this setup it will be hard to challenge for the holeshot award.

No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech.

I had one mechanic tell me that a muffler can lose up to a half-pound of packing after a night's racing. Also, in case of tire wear (like knobs chunking off) they want a margin of error.

On Shorty's bike I heard they only run about half the ti bolts, and also run steel axles instead of ti to make it up to the weight limit.
Aaryn234
Profile picture for user Aaryn234
Posts
3312
Joined
8/19/2007
Location
South Australia, SA, AU
Fantasy
1293rd
Aaryn234 1/7/2015 4:05pm
1/7/2015 4:05pm
What's the point of checking the weight of a bike before a race? wouldn't it be more appropriate to weight them after the racing.

I am sure it would not be to hard to add some weight for Tech spec, then drop it after.

Not saying anyone is, I have no idea on that part, but surely it would not be hard.

The Shop

See All »
Falcon
Profile picture for user Falcon
Posts
12487
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA, USA
Falcon 1/7/2015 4:09pm
1/7/2015 4:09pm
Hence the "post-race tech inspection" that GuyB mentioned. That's exactly what they do.

Pre-race is for safety and to help racers follow the rules. Post-race is to catch cheaters. If I am correct, they automatically check the podium, plus a sample of random finishers.
Olson
Profile picture for user Olson
Posts
4605
Joined
4/14/2012
Location
SE
Olson 1/7/2015 4:13pm
1/7/2015 4:13pm
GuyB wrote:
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech. I...
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech.

I had one mechanic tell me that a muffler can lose up to a half-pound of packing after a night's racing. Also, in case of tire wear (like knobs chunking off) they want a margin of error.

On Shorty's bike I heard they only run about half the ti bolts, and also run steel axles instead of ti to make it up to the weight limit.
Thank you. I understand the teams keeps their lips sealed on must subjects, but that gives me an understanding of what they're working with. As I said. It must be an ideal situation for a mechanic and rider to be able to move around weight. On the other hand I can also see the problem working to close to the limit. How close are they willing to go for just a couple of ounces.


And while we're on the subject tech inspection. When Bowers had his fastest time removed because of a failed sound test. What test did he fail? Random test after the practice? It can't be the post race (he should've been aware of that)? How many sound tests are there for a race and how many times to they weigh the bikes? All bike before and after or just all bikes before and a random amount after?
TeamGreen
Profile picture for user TeamGreen
Posts
37315
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
TeamGreen 1/7/2015 4:31pm
1/7/2015 4:31pm
GuyB wrote:
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech. I...
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech.

I had one mechanic tell me that a muffler can lose up to a half-pound of packing after a night's racing. Also, in case of tire wear (like knobs chunking off) they want a margin of error.

On Shorty's bike I heard they only run about half the ti bolts, and also run steel axles instead of ti to make it up to the weight limit.
Olson wrote:
Thank you. I understand the teams keeps their lips sealed on must subjects, but that gives me an understanding of what they're working with. As I...
Thank you. I understand the teams keeps their lips sealed on must subjects, but that gives me an understanding of what they're working with. As I said. It must be an ideal situation for a mechanic and rider to be able to move around weight. On the other hand I can also see the problem working to close to the limit. How close are they willing to go for just a couple of ounces.


And while we're on the subject tech inspection. When Bowers had his fastest time removed because of a failed sound test. What test did he fail? Random test after the practice? It can't be the post race (he should've been aware of that)? How many sound tests are there for a race and how many times to they weigh the bikes? All bike before and after or just all bikes before and a random amount after?
I believe there's a mic on the track and/or they test as they roll off of the track.

There goes the whole "You can pass Sound-Check if you've got a Monster Decal on your bike!"...
Cygnus
Profile picture for user Cygnus
Posts
14845
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO, USA
Cygnus 1/7/2015 4:40pm
1/7/2015 4:40pm
May make sense to have a bike/rider weigh in at the end of the race. Make the weight limit include the rider. Would be more fair.

I weight 142-45 on any given day so I always had an advantage on starts.
Skippie
Profile picture for user Skippie
Posts
886
Joined
3/19/2014
Location
USA
Skippie 1/7/2015 4:51pm
1/7/2015 4:51pm
Cygnus wrote:
May make sense to have a bike/rider weigh in at the end of the race. Make the weight limit include the rider. Would be more fair...
May make sense to have a bike/rider weigh in at the end of the race. Make the weight limit include the rider. Would be more fair.

I weight 142-45 on any given day so I always had an advantage on starts.
How is that even remotely fair? You're going to penalize a smaller riders bike handling characteristics just so that it weighs the same as a larger rider.
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35722
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
GuyB 1/7/2015 4:56pm
1/7/2015 4:56pm
Jeez...they're not jockeys...or horses.
Cygnus
Profile picture for user Cygnus
Posts
14845
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO, USA
Cygnus 1/7/2015 5:00pm
1/7/2015 5:00pm
GuyB wrote:
Jeez...they're not jockeys...or horses.
Gambling could save the sport.
wow123
Profile picture for user wow123
Posts
1162
Joined
4/27/2010
Location
AX
wow123 1/7/2015 5:01pm
1/7/2015 5:01pm
GuyB wrote:
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech. I...
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech.

I had one mechanic tell me that a muffler can lose up to a half-pound of packing after a night's racing. Also, in case of tire wear (like knobs chunking off) they want a margin of error.

On Shorty's bike I heard they only run about half the ti bolts, and also run steel axles instead of ti to make it up to the weight limit.
strange they'd run steel axles, when that is un-sprung weight, and away for the COG?

on the other hand they a low on the bike and simple to do.?





mx836
Profile picture for user mx836
Posts
5577
Joined
4/2/2008
Location
;, BF
mx836 1/7/2015 5:08pm
1/7/2015 5:08pm
wow123 wrote:
strange they'd run steel axles, when that is un-sprung weight, and away for the COG? on the other hand they a low on the bike and...
strange they'd run steel axles, when that is un-sprung weight, and away for the COG?

on the other hand they a low on the bike and simple to do.?





My guess would be that it's an easy place to add a lot of weight. I'd imagine the steel ones weigh quite a bit more than ti. As far as handling and performance, not sure. I wouldn't notice or care.
rmartin517
Profile picture for user rmartin517
Posts
474
Joined
7/27/2014
Location
Dickinson, TX, USA
rmartin517 1/7/2015 5:11pm
1/7/2015 5:11pm
They were interviewing Short and he said the cool thing about the bike being so light is the can move the weight around. So it's probably on point just in different areas.
TeamGreen
Profile picture for user TeamGreen
Posts
37315
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
TeamGreen 1/7/2015 5:50pm
1/7/2015 5:50pm
GuyB wrote:
Jeez...they're not jockeys...or horses.
Cygnus wrote:
Gambling could save the sport.
Bwahahahahahahaa

Cyg nails the PoD.
ML512
Profile picture for user ML512
Posts
17001
Joined
12/28/2008
Location
Wildomar, CA, USA
Fantasy
1301st
ML512 1/7/2015 6:19pm
1/7/2015 6:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2015 9:51am
Olson wrote:
Thank you. I understand the teams keeps their lips sealed on must subjects, but that gives me an understanding of what they're working with. As I...
Thank you. I understand the teams keeps their lips sealed on must subjects, but that gives me an understanding of what they're working with. As I said. It must be an ideal situation for a mechanic and rider to be able to move around weight. On the other hand I can also see the problem working to close to the limit. How close are they willing to go for just a couple of ounces.


And while we're on the subject tech inspection. When Bowers had his fastest time removed because of a failed sound test. What test did he fail? Random test after the practice? It can't be the post race (he should've been aware of that)? How many sound tests are there for a race and how many times to they weigh the bikes? All bike before and after or just all bikes before and a random amount after?
If they think you're over the limit, they'll send you straight to the sound testing area after the practice session. I saw that Bowers was sent there after his session and failed. So then they had to come back and check-in with another muffler to compete in the next session.
Thelen20
Profile picture for user Thelen20
Posts
2062
Joined
11/28/2009
Location
Marshall, TX, USA
Thelen20 1/7/2015 6:41pm
1/7/2015 6:41pm
wow123 wrote:
strange they'd run steel axles, when that is un-sprung weight, and away for the COG? on the other hand they a low on the bike and...
strange they'd run steel axles, when that is un-sprung weight, and away for the COG?

on the other hand they a low on the bike and simple to do.?





I agree, would be much better off sticking a chunk of something heavy on top of the skidplate than hanging it off the end of the suspenders.

Why go to all the effort of losing the weight only to put it back on in the worst place possible
Grizz
Profile picture for user Grizz
Posts
3105
Joined
7/2/2012
Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Grizz 1/7/2015 6:54pm
1/7/2015 6:54pm
wow123 wrote:
strange they'd run steel axles, when that is un-sprung weight, and away for the COG? on the other hand they a low on the bike and...
strange they'd run steel axles, when that is un-sprung weight, and away for the COG?

on the other hand they a low on the bike and simple to do.?





Thelen20 wrote:
I agree, would be much better off sticking a chunk of something heavy on top of the skidplate than hanging it off the end of the...
I agree, would be much better off sticking a chunk of something heavy on top of the skidplate than hanging it off the end of the suspenders.

Why go to all the effort of losing the weight only to put it back on in the worst place possible
Maybe that's not the worst place possible? I don't know, I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine KTM has 1 or 2 around...

Pit Row

See All »
SPYGUY
Profile picture for user SPYGUY
Posts
2174
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
SPYGUY 1/7/2015 7:47pm
1/7/2015 7:47pm
ML512 wrote:
If they think you're over the limit, they'll send you straight to the sound testing area after the practice session. I saw that Bowers was sent...
If they think you're over the limit, they'll send you straight to the sound testing area after the practice session. I saw that Bowers was sent there after his session and failed. So then they had to come back and check-in with another muffler to compete in the next session.
Do they ever check sound after the race?

What would happen if a bike didn't pass?
Thelen20
Profile picture for user Thelen20
Posts
2062
Joined
11/28/2009
Location
Marshall, TX, USA
Thelen20 1/7/2015 7:53pm
1/7/2015 7:53pm
Grizz wrote:
Maybe that's not the worst place possible? I don't know, I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine KTM has 1 or 2 around...
OK, why not put it back in the best place possible, strictly from a handling standpoint.


Does that sound better?
cmotodad
Profile picture for user cmotodad
Posts
1009
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA, USA
cmotodad 1/7/2015 8:50pm
1/7/2015 8:50pm
My son and I talked to a KTM tech in the pits. Shortys bike is at the weight with steel axles, and swing arm pivot bolt. Had a great conversation with him about the new frame, air shock and suspension. The best discussion with a tech yet.
CR250Rider
Profile picture for user CR250Rider
Posts
6706
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Moses Lake, WA, USA
CR250Rider 1/7/2015 9:33pm
1/7/2015 9:33pm
Steel axles... yup, thats why KR left. true story.
wow123
Profile picture for user wow123
Posts
1162
Joined
4/27/2010
Location
AX
wow123 1/7/2015 9:43pm
1/7/2015 9:43pm
Thelen20 wrote:
I agree, would be much better off sticking a chunk of something heavy on top of the skidplate than hanging it off the end of the...
I agree, would be much better off sticking a chunk of something heavy on top of the skidplate than hanging it off the end of the suspenders.

Why go to all the effort of losing the weight only to put it back on in the worst place possible
having thought about it, maybe you could then shift front to back weight bias, by a small amount?

like steel front and ti rear

@ ML512 are they working at that level of tuning or am i running away with this

and its just the quickest easiest way to add weight?
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
newmann 1/7/2015 10:04pm
1/7/2015 10:04pm
Sprung weight, unsprung weight, COG.....blah blah blah. Which category does the actual fork fall into? The fork springs and shock spring? The front of the swingarm versus the rear? What about the rear shock itself since it half floats on linkage? What if there are no springs?

Wouldn't steel axles move weight lower making the bike handle better than if it was higher?
Olson
Profile picture for user Olson
Posts
4605
Joined
4/14/2012
Location
SE
Olson 1/8/2015 2:46am
1/8/2015 2:46am
newmann wrote:
Sprung weight, unsprung weight, COG.....blah blah blah. Which category does the actual fork fall into? The fork springs and shock spring? The front of the swingarm...
Sprung weight, unsprung weight, COG.....blah blah blah. Which category does the actual fork fall into? The fork springs and shock spring? The front of the swingarm versus the rear? What about the rear shock itself since it half floats on linkage? What if there are no springs?

Wouldn't steel axles move weight lower making the bike handle better than if it was higher?
I would go with this. The axles are the lowest not moving part of the bike.
Fearo
Profile picture for user Fearo
Posts
1383
Joined
12/17/2009
Location
BE
Fearo 1/8/2015 3:02am
1/8/2015 3:02am
GuyB wrote:
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech. I...
No one wants to be exactly at the weight limit, so they don't come up on the wrong side of the number at post-race tech.

I had one mechanic tell me that a muffler can lose up to a half-pound of packing after a night's racing. Also, in case of tire wear (like knobs chunking off) they want a margin of error.

On Shorty's bike I heard they only run about half the ti bolts, and also run steel axles instead of ti to make it up to the weight limit.
That's crazy, imagine what they could do if they went all-out on Short's bike to save every gram possible. They could probably end up at around 212 pounds which is the same weight as a YZ 250 2-stroke.
HenryA
Profile picture for user HenryA
Posts
3784
Joined
12/29/2011
Location
Stockholm, SE
HenryA 1/8/2015 4:34am
1/8/2015 4:34am
cmotodad wrote:
My son and I talked to a KTM tech in the pits. Shortys bike is at the weight with steel axles, and swing arm pivot bolt...
My son and I talked to a KTM tech in the pits. Shortys bike is at the weight with steel axles, and swing arm pivot bolt. Had a great conversation with him about the new frame, air shock and suspension. The best discussion with a tech yet.
Spill the beans!
Roostermx58
Profile picture for user Roostermx58
Posts
1546
Joined
9/18/2013
Location
Wilmington, NC, USA
Roostermx58 1/8/2015 5:49am
1/8/2015 5:49am
Falcon wrote:
Hence the "post-race tech inspection" that GuyB mentioned. That's exactly what they do. Pre-race is for safety and to help racers follow the rules. Post-race is...
Hence the "post-race tech inspection" that GuyB mentioned. That's exactly what they do.

Pre-race is for safety and to help racers follow the rules. Post-race is to catch cheaters. If I am correct, they automatically check the podium, plus a sample of random finishers.
You would think that weighing the bike after the race would be irrelevant (unless they wash it before they weigh it?) What about the additional weight of dirt accumulation throughout the race and the reduction of weight from fuel burn, tire wear, etc?
cmotodad
Profile picture for user cmotodad
Posts
1009
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
Yorba Linda, CA, USA
cmotodad 1/8/2015 9:10am
1/8/2015 9:10am Edited Date/Time 1/8/2015 9:11am
The conversation stemmed around the new fame flex points. It seems KTM is looking for less front to rear flew and more side to side. Shorty seems to be more of the test rider for possible product that may make it to production. We could tell he spent many hours doing R&D.
mxtech1
Profile picture for user mxtech1
Posts
1968
Joined
7/21/2011
Location
Galesburg, IL, USA
mxtech1 1/8/2015 10:10am
1/8/2015 10:10am
We ran the entire MX National series in 2008 and the bike was never weighed going through pre-race inspection. Unless you are a top-contender, it is unlikely to be caught.

If there are any weight limits being broke, it's likely in the 250F class.

Post a reply to: Shorts bike, weight?