The Height of FIM Arrogance

gsxrcr28
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12/22/2014 7:03am
roost wrote:
So is the FIM/AMA responsible to make sure JS7 is properly medicated while on the track for the safety of others? What if James is feeling...
So is the FIM/AMA responsible to make sure JS7 is properly medicated while on the track for the safety of others?

What if James is feeling a little ill and does not want to take his Meds...is he allowed to go out on the track and risk losing "focus" and landing on someone?

Does a rider that is landed on by JS7 have the right to get proof that he was properly medicated at the time of the accident?

If he is diagnosed with ADHD... ban him... this sport is like no other when you take into account how your fellow competitors can drastically change your life with a mistake.... no room for medicated psychological disorder patients.
From what we have heard they would be banning a lot of riders.
gsxrcr28
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12/22/2014 7:05am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2014 7:05am
gsxrcr28 wrote:
I don't think it smells like BS, DC is saying the same thing you have been saying. [b]Guys like Jeremy McGrath and others took to social...
I don't think it smells like BS, DC is saying the same thing you have been saying.

Guys like Jeremy McGrath and others took to social media to back James Stewart, and I have spoken to a lot of guys who are shocked and bummed that it’s all come to this—I personally think that it’s way too harsh a penalty, for what is effectively a prescribed drug that he is now allowed to use by the FIM’s own standards. He didn’t have his paperwork in, but did anyone at the FIM conduct a pre-supercross meeting to educate Stewart and all of the other athletes about the perils of taking prescribed medication without conferring with the FIM and reading the vast codes and do’s and don’ts of prescribed medication?
burn1986 wrote:
Okay, let me take out the first sentence of my reply and leave it with "...sounds like someone is trying to divert attention away from themselves."...
Okay, let me take out the first sentence of my reply and leave it with "...sounds like someone is trying to divert attention away from themselves." We already know the ruling and the way the WADA, FIM handled it was BS. Basically, DC is taking a hands off approach and just reporting the news. However, no one wants to do anything substantial to stand up against the FIM or say, "Well, he can race anyway."
True, but there may be a plan for after the current contract.
burn1986
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12/22/2014 7:12am
Which contract? James's Suzuki contract, or the promoters' contract with FIM or WADA, or whatever?
gsxrcr28
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12/22/2014 7:16am
burn1986 wrote:
Which contract? James's Suzuki contract, or the promoters' contract with FIM or WADA, or whatever?
Maybe the FIM will get the ax when their current contact with Feld is done, we really don't know for sure right now. As stated numerous times, American Supercross was fine before being binded to the FIM.

The Shop

Fraser
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12/22/2014 7:30am
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Irregardless, they apparently don't think he was trying to cheat, cause they have approved him to take the medication.
This point seems to be going backwards and forwards every day, with neither opinion listening to the other . (I'm probably just as guilty as anyone on that)

We are told by the JS camp that the FIM approved his TUE for some unknown medication going forward from October/November.
That is not saying they don't think he was trying to cheat, it makes no comment about cheating. What it says is that his prescriptions look genuine now and they'll allow him to take whatever it is in future.

If his medical condition is genuine then there was no reason whatsoever to not have a TUE in the first place. Then again if its genuine why did it take until September to have those records made available?

All of this could easily have been avoided! The problem is without proper factual statements from JS and the FIM there are so many points that are open to opinion and speculation still.
Cajun Kamikaze
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12/22/2014 7:31am
oshow wrote:
Please let me go on record one more time. Fuck the FIM.

That's is all
And USADA and WADA
FreshTopEnd
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12/22/2014 7:34am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2014 7:35am
So what you're saying is.....there is actually precedent set forth regarding these issues. Pretty sure js7 is just going to have to sit on the sidelines.
Fraser wrote:
Exactly right. There was always precedent for the ban JS7 received. The length is pretty much what you'd expect it to be considering the other cases...
Exactly right. There was always precedent for the ban JS7 received. The length is pretty much what you'd expect it to be considering the other cases.

That's not something that anyone who's shouting that JS's ban was unfair, too long, or all an FIM conspiracy has bothered to consider. And why would they? Why spoil a good anti-Europe rant with facts?
Just keep in mind the application of precedence in processes like this turns on comparability of all the facts and circumstances - and we don't know them. The code is no-fault -the athlete loses the event results at the very least even if he had no idea and could not have known he ingested the substance. Or he will get a longer ban if he was negligent in failing to comply. Or an even longer ban, up to 2 years first crack, If he use was intentional and evasive,

Under that sort of discretionary regime,the fact that one athlete received a certain penalty begs the question of whether the same penslty is appropriate for another athlete"s case.

iMO guys are overreaching with the precedent argument with as little we know.

The FIM's reason for taking so long, particularly as it seems to link the penalty determination with the 2015 TUE, makes no sense to me.
gsxrcr28
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12/22/2014 7:37am
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Irregardless, they apparently don't think he was trying to cheat, cause they have approved him to take the medication.
Fraser wrote:
This point seems to be going backwards and forwards every day, with neither opinion listening to the other . (I'm probably just as guilty as anyone...
This point seems to be going backwards and forwards every day, with neither opinion listening to the other . (I'm probably just as guilty as anyone on that)

We are told by the JS camp that the FIM approved his TUE for some unknown medication going forward from October/November.
That is not saying they don't think he was trying to cheat, it makes no comment about cheating. What it says is that his prescriptions look genuine now and they'll allow him to take whatever it is in future.

If his medical condition is genuine then there was no reason whatsoever to not have a TUE in the first place. Then again if its genuine why did it take until September to have those records made available?

All of this could easily have been avoided! The problem is without proper factual statements from JS and the FIM there are so many points that are open to opinion and speculation still.
Yes, we are talking in circles now, and saying the same thing over and over again. Also getting off topic, this thread is about the "arrogance" of the FIM about not contacting MX Sports about erasing results.
FreshTopEnd
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12/22/2014 7:50am
Crush wrote:
Guess I was asking more about the contract situation...
Beast666 wrote:
Since Feld wanted the "World Championship" designation they had no choice in going with the FIM as the AMA can only cover a US championship designation.
Clear Channel didn't want to buy the "world" title that the FIM had sold to Dorna; they wanted to crush the AMA and guard their still.

Don't you feel silly as all get out arguing the ludicrous notion that the FIM would suspend RV and cut him out of the GPs? In all of the possible outcomes here, that's the least likely to happen.

It's worth keeping ones head tethered to reality, even here at vital
philG
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12/22/2014 7:56am
Crush wrote:
Did it take Stewy till Sept to get his docs in? So really it took the FIM 3 months to hand in a decision?
Well im guessing it took a while to find the right doctor.....
FreshTopEnd
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12/22/2014 7:57am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2014 8:40am
Why would people think the 21st century version of had FIM (or at least its Moticross committee) would
consult and inform or offer basic redoect for the AMA. Did they do so when they dropped the MXdN at Comp Park in 02? Or contracted with Clear Channel to facilitate that commercial entitiy's battle with the FIM"s affiliate in the US?

FreshTopEnd
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12/22/2014 7:58am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2014 8:02am
Crush wrote:
Did it take Stewy till Sept to get his docs in? So really it took the FIM 3 months to hand in a decision?
philG wrote:
Well im guessing it took a while to find the right doctor.....
ohforcryingourloud
gsxrcr28
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12/22/2014 8:06am
Crush wrote:
Did it take Stewy till Sept to get his docs in? So really it took the FIM 3 months to hand in a decision?
philG wrote:
Well im guessing it took a while to find the right doctor.....
Leave it to our foreign friends to try to slander, not surprising though.
philG
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12/22/2014 8:14am
ohforcryingourloud
So lets assume that JS has a proper prescription , all approved by his doctor and a cast iron diagnosis of ADHD ( which hasnt been mentioned in his entire career ,till now) , and its just a filing error.

We will put aside the whole 'why didnt he file it in the first place' argument , and just assume that the minute he was notified , all he had to do was get his regular doctor to sign the TUE , which as his regular Doc , he would have no issue with , and it would be in the hands of whoever , in an instant . At least by Email in a day or so , and by proper mail in a week max.

Please tell me what possible reason it could have taken till september to file that.... this is a pro athlete we are talking about here , in a pro team... if thats my guy , im beating his ass to get it done and driving the damn thing to Pickerington to get it ironed out. not sitting round from june till september..

Occams Razor.. the most simple and obvious explanation is usually right
line-up
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12/22/2014 8:15am
philG wrote:
Well im guessing it took a while to find the right doctor.....
http://motocrossactionmag.com/home-page/rumors-gossip-unfounded-truths-…


(8) JAMES SAID THAT HE “RECEIVED BOTH WADA AND USADA APPROVALS” TO PROVE THAT HE WASN’T CHEATING, SO WHAT’S THE BIG DEAL?

James is playing fast and loose with the time line with that statement. It’s not actually accurate to the situation. After he was caught with amphetamines in his system, he applied for a TUE and provided all of the medical, doctor and prescription info to the FIM. But, that is kind of like getting a speeding ticket ten miles from your house and then wanting it rescinded because you are doing the speed limit 5 miles later. His TUE is good for 2015. His punishment is for 2014. And, anyone who wants to, including the Seattle Seahawks backfield, can to get a prescription for Adderall by telling a doctor the right story.
robkinuk
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12/22/2014 8:22am
If a fraction of the effort that's been expended on trying to defend Stewart's action's, had been put into ensuring his documentation was in order for his prescription's medical issues etc, then none of this would have happened!

line-up
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12/22/2014 8:27am
robkinuk wrote:
If a fraction of the effort that's been expended on trying to defend Stewart's action's, had been put into ensuring his documentation was in order for...
If a fraction of the effort that's been expended on trying to defend Stewart's action's, had been put into ensuring his documentation was in order for his prescription's medical issues etc, then none of this would have happened!

(6) IF STEWART HAD A PRESCRIPTION FOR ADDERALL WHY IS HE BEING PUNISHED SO HEAVILY?

Since Adderall is used by many athletes as a cover for performance enhancing drugs, and Adderall itself can be performance enhancing when used in specific doses, its appearance in an athlete’s portfolio rings alarm bells. WADA asked Stewart in Seattle if he was taking any drugs or medication. He said “No.” So, when his test came back positive for amphetamines, which is in Adderall, WADA saw his negative answer as an attempt to hide what he was taking. When they discovered that he hadn’t file a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption), which would have allowed him to use prescribed doses of a medically required drug, this raised a second red flag at WADA. James may claim that he was guilty of stupidity, but WADA deals with the world’s greatest athletes and has heard every imaginative excuse possible — lots of them stupider. Now, say that James’ lawyers asked to have the B-sample tested — this raises a third flag because why would an athlete — who is admitting to taking Adderall want a second test — unless he was hoping it would prove that he wasn’t taking Adderall. The snowball effect of all of the permutations can build up quickly. Plus, saying “No” and not filing the proper paperwork are violations of the FIM Drug Code in themselves and demand a punishment. Sadly, WADA polices the complete spectrum of international sport and they believe that if an Olympic swimmer gets 16-months for the same offense, and a Tour de France cyclist gets 16-month for the same offense, then a motocross racer should be 16-months.
RickLeY
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12/22/2014 8:40am
I was thinking, if this snowballs and AMA kicks out FIM can FIM ban ppl to go to the AMA? I mean lets take Freddy Noren for an example, could they say if you go ur not coming back?
gsxrcr28
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12/22/2014 8:49am
Do people really think WADA is just handing out TUE's because someone has a prescription, without doing a thorough evaluation of these riders medical files and consulting a panel of physicians? If they are they might not be who we want doing the testing.
DC
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12/22/2014 8:50am
Guys, I don't think anyone is arguing that James Stewart used a prohibited substance without a prior TUE and deserves punishment. What is happening is that it took three months for him to even be notified, then he got a provisional suspension from FIM events in the middle of a non-FIM series, and then he got his TUE sorted -- his mistake in not knowing or following the rules -- but has to wait until late in the fall to get a hearing. THEN the FIM announces it's penalty without notifying the AMA or discussing the process, which infuriates Rob Dingman enough for him to write his letter. Ultimately, he (and many others) feel that the penalty did not fit the infraction, which effectively takes him out of two AMA championship series... No one blames the FIM for Stewart failing the test; they blame the FIM for the way it was handled and the length of time it took, the lack of transparency, and the heavy penalty for using a prescribed medicine that he is now allowed to use when he returns. It's not performance-enhancing in the sense of steroids, EPO, blood-doping, HGH, etc. Those things would never be prescribed in such context, yet Adderall is, and in James Stewart's case, it's a medical necessity, and that complicates everything in that it's presence in someone without a demonstrated medical need, it's cheating; if some needs it, and has that TUE, it's not.

It's a procedural violation, yet it's getting him an extremely heavy penalty for using a medicine he is already pre-approved to use by the same people when he does return. Doesn't that prove that it's procedural?

Finally, there is a very big difference here between last year's "provisional suspension" from FIM-related events and his upcoming period of ineligibility, which is what the penalty now calls for. It is up to the AMA and AMA Pro Racing to decide James Stewart's eligibility. If the AMA revokes his AMA membership, as the FIM asks, he's out for supercross, and AMA Pro Racing would almost certainly not be able to issue a license either since he would not have a mandatory AMA card.

Add it all up, that's why Mr. Dingman would like to see the length of the penalty revisited, not the failed test itself, as well as fixing this whole process moving forward.

DC
MX Sports
12/22/2014 8:52am
roost wrote:
So is the FIM/AMA responsible to make sure JS7 is properly medicated while on the track for the safety of others? What if James is feeling...
So is the FIM/AMA responsible to make sure JS7 is properly medicated while on the track for the safety of others?

What if James is feeling a little ill and does not want to take his Meds...is he allowed to go out on the track and risk losing "focus" and landing on someone?

Does a rider that is landed on by JS7 have the right to get proof that he was properly medicated at the time of the accident?

If he is diagnosed with ADHD... ban him... this sport is like no other when you take into account how your fellow competitors can drastically change your life with a mistake.... no room for medicated psychological disorder patients.
That's rediculous. That's all. Rediculous. He raced his entire life before he found out he has add. So to ban him is stupid.
FreshTopEnd
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12/22/2014 8:52am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2014 8:55am
ohforcryingourloud
philG wrote:
So lets assume that JS has a proper prescription , all approved by his doctor and a cast iron diagnosis of ADHD ( which hasnt been...
So lets assume that JS has a proper prescription , all approved by his doctor and a cast iron diagnosis of ADHD ( which hasnt been mentioned in his entire career ,till now) , and its just a filing error.

We will put aside the whole 'why didnt he file it in the first place' argument , and just assume that the minute he was notified , all he had to do was get his regular doctor to sign the TUE , which as his regular Doc , he would have no issue with , and it would be in the hands of whoever , in an instant . At least by Email in a day or so , and by proper mail in a week max.

Please tell me what possible reason it could have taken till september to file that.... this is a pro athlete we are talking about here , in a pro team... if thats my guy , im beating his ass to get it done and driving the damn thing to Pickerington to get it ironed out. not sitting round from june till september..

Occams Razor.. the most simple and obvious explanation is usually right
When you apply for a TUE you need s documented medical history, not one made up after the fact. You could read the code if you're serious enough about thus to talk shit about what happened without knowing the facts.

It's a lot less surprising that it took that long to get records in than it is that the penalty took so long to levy.

But since you're Karnac, tell us how WADA managed to validate he's entitled to use the medication for therapy for the TUE but the FIN determined that he used it for a performance advantage, which by logic has to be what elevated the suspension to something more than having a legitimate basis to use (now established conclusively) but failing to get the exemption for therapy?

Stew needed to be dinged more than losing event points, but this with what we know is excessive IMO.

Anyway, we'll just have to disagree on whether the FIM is a credible steward of motocrosd.
Fraser
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12/22/2014 8:53am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2014 8:54am
Rickley-

I doubt it will. There are lots of things the AMA could have done if they weren't happy. For instance TALKING to the FIM about this before the penalty was announced. If they felt so strongly about JS not being punished too harshly I'm sure they could have backed him before now. Sending a very public letter after the event seems more like a PR exercise aimed at keeping the A1 fans onboard, rather than actually affecting the outcome.
Fraser
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12/22/2014 8:57am
That's rediculous. That's all. Rediculous. He raced his entire life before he found out he has add. So to ban him is stupid.
So you're saying he can race without Adderall ok then, seeing as he did it his entire whole life?
gsxrcr28
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12/22/2014 9:07am
That's rediculous. That's all. Rediculous. He raced his entire life before he found out he has add. So to ban him is stupid.
Fraser wrote:
So you're saying he can race without Adderall ok then, seeing as he did it his entire whole life?
He probably can, but maybe him and his doctors think it's safer for him to race with the medication.
DC
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12/22/2014 9:12am
Fraser, Anaheim is sold-out. The fans will be there with or without James, and the AMA did try to discuss the situation with the FIM. The levels of frustration in this whole process that that led to Dingman's letter are shared by many, from Suzuki to the Supercross promoter, from Fox Sports to his many fans, and so on and so forth....

And for what it's worth, Adderall is also useful for patients who have suffered brain trauma, like concussions. James Stewart has had quite a few of those over the years, as have a lot of others that race dirt bikes, unfortunately.

DC
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philG
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12/22/2014 9:13am
When you apply for a TUE you need s documented medical history, not one made up after the fact. You could read the code if you're...
When you apply for a TUE you need s documented medical history, not one made up after the fact. You could read the code if you're serious enough about thus to talk shit about what happened without knowing the facts.

It's a lot less surprising that it took that long to get records in than it is that the penalty took so long to levy.

But since you're Karnac, tell us how WADA managed to validate he's entitled to use the medication for therapy for the TUE but the FIN determined that he used it for a performance advantage, which by logic has to be what elevated the suspension to something more than having a legitimate basis to use (now established conclusively) but failing to get the exemption for therapy?

Stew needed to be dinged more than losing event points, but this with what we know is excessive IMO.

Anyway, we'll just have to disagree on whether the FIM is a credible steward of motocrosd.
Well seeing as the incidence of ADHD in the Seattle Seahawks defence is pretty high , i would say it not as difficult as we imagine.

The FIM can only go by there rules , which are quite simple, if someone asks if you are taking a drug , and you say no , and you then test positive for something you have said you arent taking , and its banned , thats it ... the FIM are willing to overlook the performance advantage , but you cant have a TUE in place for something you say you arent taking at the time of the test .

Therefore , you broke the rules... its not that hard to understand surely.. whether if be WADA , USADA or the any other sport that follows proper rules , if you have the chance to validate before you take , or are tested , you do it ... if JS had said he was taking Aderall prior to the test , then that would have been different ... but he didnt , and so he has to take what is coming when he gets caught.

If you dont think there are doctors out there who will do this kind of thing , then you are wrong, and with someone with JS's money behind him , whatever it costs , is nothing compared to what he has to lose.

The FIM has a lot of faults, but its drug code isnt one of them , it chose to use the WADA code simply because its a worldwide standard , and that makes it fair and legal , without the need to do your own 'stop or i will tell you to stop again' of the US self regulated sports like NBA,NFL & NASCAR.



FreshTopEnd
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12/22/2014 9:16am
Fraser wrote:
Rickley- I doubt it will. There are lots of things the AMA could have done if they weren't happy. For instance TALKING to the FIM about...
Rickley-

I doubt it will. There are lots of things the AMA could have done if they weren't happy. For instance TALKING to the FIM about this before the penalty was announced. If they felt so strongly about JS not being punished too harshly I'm sure they could have backed him before now. Sending a very public letter after the event seems more like a PR exercise aimed at keeping the A1 fans onboard, rather than actually affecting the outcome.
You know the AMA didn't do that before the penalty came down?
olds cool
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12/22/2014 9:16am
Markee wrote:
AJ. Allmendinger failed a drug test for the same thing years ago. Allmendinger was suspended on July 24 for violating the substance-abuse program. The drug initially...
AJ. Allmendinger failed a drug test for the same thing years ago.

Allmendinger was suspended on July 24 for violating the substance-abuse program. The drug initially was identified as amphetamines, with Allmendinger later identifying it as prescription Adderall he took once from the friend of a friend.

"I want to thank everyone for their support through this entire process," Allmendinger said in a prepared statement. "I appreciate that NASCAR created the Road to Recovery program, and am grateful for the opportunity to return to competition.

"The Road to Recovery program was really helpful to me in getting my priorities reset away from the race track. And, honestly, that helped find my love of racing again and why I began racing in the first place. I'm looking forward to taking this experience and be better for it moving forward."

Basicly NASCAR had a program in place with out some outside governing body making the calls on their drivers. It took from july 24 - Sept 21 to take care of the issue with their road to Recovery program.
Good post Markee, Nascar decided to keep control and decide their own penalties. Then on top of that they have a rehab program lined up to...
Good post Markee, Nascar decided to keep control and decide their own penalties. Then on top of that they have a rehab program lined up to help insure the driver has a shot to come back in a timely fashion. This is the kind of system I wish we had versus what we have. I am dissapointed in Bubba, and sickened by the penalty.
Hey, wait a minute. I thought everybody here hated anything and everything to do with NASCAR, or "NECKCAR" as most of you here refer to it as...
reded
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12/22/2014 9:17am
DC wrote:
Fraser, Anaheim is sold-out. The fans will be there with or without James, and the AMA did try to discuss the situation with the FIM. The...
Fraser, Anaheim is sold-out. The fans will be there with or without James, and the AMA did try to discuss the situation with the FIM. The levels of frustration in this whole process that that led to Dingman's letter are shared by many, from Suzuki to the Supercross promoter, from Fox Sports to his many fans, and so on and so forth....

And for what it's worth, Adderall is also useful for patients who have suffered brain trauma, like concussions. James Stewart has had quite a few of those over the years, as have a lot of others that race dirt bikes, unfortunately.

DC
MX Sports
I find that last statement to be quite troubling.

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