Lappers 15 minutes to stay on the lead lap

bd
Posts
6056
Joined
4/6/2007
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
8/24/2014 1:04pm
It's going to be tough to develop the speed and endurance to beat the top guys if you are kicked off the track before it's over.
zippy895 wrote:
true.its a challenge needed. but sure,everyone on that gate should get points.last guy to qualify should get 1 point.then ramp points up from there. this way,even...
true.its a challenge needed.
but sure,everyone on that gate should get points.last guy to qualify should get 1 point.then ramp points up from there.
this way,even the guys in back will continue with some form of extra motivation,instead of feeling defeated.
You must be a leftist - what's next, trophies for the top 20?
wreckitrandy
Posts
4242
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Granite Falls, NC, USA
8/24/2014 1:20pm
500guy wrote:
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes...
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes anyone outside 30th not on the lead lap gets flagged off.

Anyone who makes the Motos are bad ass rider no doubt but there are 3-4 different levels out there these day's.

I hate to see some guy getting beat to death out there affecting the results of the leaders.
zippy895 wrote:
so you saying,if you get lapped in that time frame,said lapper gets half his entry fee and expenses back?
500guy wrote:
Said lapper gets faster or He isn't going to make it, Racing is not a Charity.
'Racing is not a Charity.'....... Some would argue that, given the purse structure, said lappers are quite charitable.
RacerX8
Posts
359
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
CA
8/24/2014 1:30pm
philG wrote:
In Mxgp in Germany, 3.5 seconds covered the top 25 in qualifying.. In Utah that amount covered the top 4.. 25th was more than 15 seconds...
In Mxgp in Germany, 3.5 seconds covered the top 25 in qualifying.. In Utah that amount covered the top 4.. 25th was more than 15 seconds a lap off.. Dread to think what the slowest qualifier was
was. It's a weak field, and getting weaker year on year, due to falling rider numbers and the knock in effect that has. The kid that won the 150 Honda cup in loket was only 16 seconds off Jeremy van hoorebeek, yet that time would get you in a national.
This is crazy, in a good way, I don't follow the GP's and should obviously! It should be part of AMA criteria, if you want to host a national event you have to meet a minimum lap time. Make every track have a lap of 2:30 (or more for example),keep the lappers to a minimum as this increases safety issues too
bd
Posts
6056
Joined
4/6/2007
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
8/24/2014 1:37pm
RandyS wrote:
AMA needs to run more like NASCAR. Restrictor plates on the guys that are going too fast. It would slow the top riders down which would...
AMA needs to run more like NASCAR. Restrictor plates on the guys that are going too fast. It would slow the top riders down which would be safer for them and would make for a better race. With the electronics on bikes it would be easy to adjust the power. Maybe everyone could have a pass button like Indycar too.
Really? So rider who starts top 20 who is going faster than pack is restricted? What the fuck?

The Shop

bd
Posts
6056
Joined
4/6/2007
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
8/24/2014 1:38pm
philG wrote:
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the...
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the big class.. Mxgp class it going to be 30 riders next year, and the spread at most races will be less than the top 5 in ama... I guess when you bring back the injured and 'just resting' guys, that will stick another 5 or 6 guys in at the top end,which will make it a bit better, but at unadilla the guy in 5th was 8 seconds a lap off in one of the races... That's scary.
Overdrive wrote:
PhilG I would agree with you. Musquin, Wilson, Seely, Pourcel, Osbourne are just a few more that should not be in the 250 class. For those...
PhilG I would agree with you.

Musquin, Wilson, Seely, Pourcel, Osbourne are just a few more that should not be in the 250 class.

For those who think the 250 class isn't the beginner class for pro's, need to tell me where the new Pros coming out of Loretta Lynns go? The new pros go into 250 class, because its the beginner class for the vast majority of pro's.

Very rarely do they come out of Loretta Lynn's and try to make it in the 450 class and if they do its because the 250 class is just to stacked with people who should have moved up.

They cut their teeth and then there should be enough incentive for them to move on to the 450's.

But this debate will go on forever with no solution like purse money, 2 strokes and...................
The 250F is a National Pro Class. They are Pros.
zippy895
Posts
5495
Joined
7/15/2008
Location
Daytona Beach, FL, USA
8/24/2014 1:42pm
RacerX8 wrote:
This is crazy, in a good way, I don't follow the GP's and should obviously! It should be part of AMA criteria, if you want to...
This is crazy, in a good way, I don't follow the GP's and should obviously! It should be part of AMA criteria, if you want to host a national event you have to meet a minimum lap time. Make every track have a lap of 2:30 (or more for example),keep the lappers to a minimum as this increases safety issues too
longer laps would help,blue flashing lites on portions of track,hell even some kind of projection screens in riders view (mirrors.lol),yes.but keep the starting gate full.
don't keep the gates full,privateers will not bother and the entry fees,etc will diminish.not wise business decision.
bd
Posts
6056
Joined
4/6/2007
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
8/24/2014 1:47pm Edited Date/Time 8/24/2014 2:17pm
This what I got from this thread:

- 250F Class is not a pro class; its a pro am class where riders should be forced to move up who are too fast
- Ruts should be cut out of Nationals
- Riders who pay fees, maintain their bike, mod their bike - should be forced off the track when being lapped (so it does not affect lead riders). This has no concern of live attendees nor the people who qualify for the event. The GPs cant even fill their gates with its rules. How does this affect the sport?
- Restrictors on fast riders (imagine this on db's 1986 MXDN ride or RL 1988 ride - legendary races you fucking mooks are willing to end)

This is your take away from the season? We had multiple winners, the top 4 with in seconds of each other, one of the best years in decades and this is the fucking take away.
RacerX8
Posts
359
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
CA
8/24/2014 2:24pm
RacerX8 wrote:
This is crazy, in a good way, I don't follow the GP's and should obviously! It should be part of AMA criteria, if you want to...
This is crazy, in a good way, I don't follow the GP's and should obviously! It should be part of AMA criteria, if you want to host a national event you have to meet a minimum lap time. Make every track have a lap of 2:30 (or more for example),keep the lappers to a minimum as this increases safety issues too
zippy895 wrote:
longer laps would help,blue flashing lites on portions of track,hell even some kind of projection screens in riders view (mirrors.lol),yes.but keep the starting gate full. don't...
longer laps would help,blue flashing lites on portions of track,hell even some kind of projection screens in riders view (mirrors.lol),yes.but keep the starting gate full.
don't keep the gates full,privateers will not bother and the entry fees,etc will diminish.not wise business decision.
Yes keep the gate full! If you leave the startline, you cross the finishline unless you crash out or have a mechanical. To my understanding this is how racing works.....
Squid-mom
Posts
237
Joined
11/11/2013
Location
Mc Coy, TX, USA
8/24/2014 2:54pm
Squid-mom wrote:
I wouldn't say it is a weak field because 99.9% of you couldn't run with that 'weak field'. That said, I think the problem is getting...
I wouldn't say it is a weak field because 99.9% of you couldn't run with that 'weak field'. That said, I think the problem is getting worse only because of the economy. The top guys have so much and the privateers have so little. Years ago there were alot more riders getting help than there is now. Many of the back markers have none of the 'works' stuff on their bikes, have to work other jobs, etc etc. Another reason I dislike the schedule zig-zagging across the country, it is going to continue to get worse if something isn't changed to make the privateers stand a chance.
philG wrote:
But there have always been factory bikes, and non factory bikes... Guys running outside the top 15 can still get access to pretty much everything, as...
But there have always been factory bikes, and non factory bikes... Guys running outside the top 15 can still get access to pretty much everything, as it's off the shelf stuff for Ama.. In gp's you have proper factory stuff, but ama, the bikes don't differ that much, same as anything, if you have the$$ , you can have the kit.
Yes, there have always been factory and non-factory bikes. Yes, guys outside the top 15 can still buy off the shelf. But, how many of the privateer that are trying to work during the beginning of the week to earn the $ they need to drive across the country and pay entry fees have enough left over for the 'kit'. I would also have to argue that the bikes don't differ that much. If that was the case, why would the team motors have a 2 hour limit on them before they grenade?

I do believe that points should be awarded to all of those that actually qualify to race would help. As would making the schedule more 'privateer friendly' (as I have said before)
8/24/2014 4:22pm
I think you could give the factory riders the necessary advantages over the privateer bikes and change a couple of rules to see if it would tighten up the field a little bit. Personally, I believe every rider should be limited to tire compounds that are available for the public to purchase. I don't believe a factory caliber rider needs this upper hand. Keep the full gates.
The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI, USA
8/24/2014 5:46pm
II think the production bike rule is enough but we need works tires otherwise tire development progresses slowly. No better test bed than a on a race track racing. I appreciate the point but if you are fast enough to where a tire will make that much difference be patient and you'll soon be racing with them with the way this sport works.

Cygnus
Posts
14845
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO, USA
8/24/2014 5:51pm
Hell no!
8/24/2014 6:06pm
The Rock wrote:
II think the production bike rule is enough but we need works tires otherwise tire development progresses slowly. No better test bed than a on a...
II think the production bike rule is enough but we need works tires otherwise tire development progresses slowly. No better test bed than a on a race track racing. I appreciate the point but if you are fast enough to where a tire will make that much difference be patient and you'll soon be racing with them with the way this sport works.

I understand that race day is the best day for tire companies to gather data on one off tire compounds. However, how much advantage should a factory get? Rider, budget, suspension, motor and EFI mapping are solid advantages over the competition. We could keep the tire advantage too but then we shouldn't be too concerned with lapped riders either.
Overdrive
Posts
1614
Joined
7/13/2008
Location
Fort Myers, FL, USA
8/24/2014 6:33pm Edited Date/Time 8/24/2014 6:34pm
philG wrote:
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the...
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the big class.. Mxgp class it going to be 30 riders next year, and the spread at most races will be less than the top 5 in ama... I guess when you bring back the injured and 'just resting' guys, that will stick another 5 or 6 guys in at the top end,which will make it a bit better, but at unadilla the guy in 5th was 8 seconds a lap off in one of the races... That's scary.
Overdrive wrote:
PhilG I would agree with you. Musquin, Wilson, Seely, Pourcel, Osbourne are just a few more that should not be in the 250 class. For those...
PhilG I would agree with you.

Musquin, Wilson, Seely, Pourcel, Osbourne are just a few more that should not be in the 250 class.

For those who think the 250 class isn't the beginner class for pro's, need to tell me where the new Pros coming out of Loretta Lynns go? The new pros go into 250 class, because its the beginner class for the vast majority of pro's.

Very rarely do they come out of Loretta Lynn's and try to make it in the 450 class and if they do its because the 250 class is just to stacked with people who should have moved up.

They cut their teeth and then there should be enough incentive for them to move on to the 450's.

But this debate will go on forever with no solution like purse money, 2 strokes and...................
DonM wrote:
So you want force riders to be privateers? The only incentive to move to the 450's is a good ride that pays better than their current...
So you want force riders to be privateers? The only incentive to move to the 450's is a good ride that pays better than their current one and they are far and few in-between.
So your saying the guys I named off couldn't get a ride in the 450 class. They could all get a ride in the 450 class.

Majority of the factory money and sponsor money should be in the premier class so there is more money there as incentive. The best of the best should be in the 450 class, not cherry picking the 250 class.

And if good rides are far and few between like you contend then we have bigger problems than lappers in the 450 class.
DonM
Posts
9066
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
Fantasy
8/24/2014 6:52pm
That's exactly what I'm saying. Of course Wilson and Seely have rides for next year in the 450's Pourcel may or may not and I would guess not. Musquin still has something to prove in the 250's and is a contender while Osbourne would be a big risk as he has proven injury prone.
There only so many rides and if you force people up those rides will be full and what would be left would pay much less than a competitive 250 team that it would force people out of racing. All you have to do is look at the GP's, less that 25 full time riders, a 250 class that has one premiere rider and many other guys racing other series because there is nothing for them in the GP's.
Last I checked the 250 class here in MX pays the same as 450's so why not allow anyone who can make a living at it.
toroP
Posts
4518
Joined
4/6/2009
Location
Cincinnati, OH, USA
8/24/2014 7:14pm
The best guys should be racing each other. Dividing up the the riders in cc classes dilutes the racing.

Imagine: the top 15-20 from the 250 and 450 classes in one class. A real premier class. If you're a rookie and not ready, you can race in the lower division until you are.

And I don't care about the bike. Maybe make the premier class the 250 2stroke classWink

Divide the classes by speed not cc's. It will certainly help with lappers and make for a crazy championship battle.
The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI, USA
8/24/2014 8:07pm
toroP wrote:
The best guys should be racing each other. Dividing up the the riders in cc classes dilutes the racing. Imagine: the top 15-20 from the 250...
The best guys should be racing each other. Dividing up the the riders in cc classes dilutes the racing.

Imagine: the top 15-20 from the 250 and 450 classes in one class. A real premier class. If you're a rookie and not ready, you can race in the lower division until you are.

And I don't care about the bike. Maybe make the premier class the 250 2stroke classWink

Divide the classes by speed not cc's. It will certainly help with lappers and make for a crazy championship battle.
I am imagining the bottom 20 from both classes in a one moto format or two but I have it drilled into my brain that time is limited on race day so is why I am suggesting a one moto format.

Don't fix what is broken so there is no reason IMO to dilute the coverage the stars are getting now in their respective classes but instead increase the coverage the up and comers are getting. Make 250cc two strokes and 300cc two strokes legal and you're cooking with gas but even without the controversial two stroke suggestion I think the concept has merit.
8/24/2014 11:15pm
As I see it the problem is these man made tracks. It's the same with some of the flyaway GPs, they string the field out too much producing little overtaking and boring and processional racing.
jleews6
Posts
2304
Joined
8/3/2008
Location
Hardy, VA, USA
8/25/2014 7:16am
I think that they should be able to race because like everybody else has said ,If they can make it in then they are an incredible rider and deserve a spot on the gate. That being said. I also think that if you are a lapper and your still going fast and trying with everything you have then just move over and let the leaders go by. But, If your a lapper and just out there riding around taking up space and not giving 100% then you need to get off the track.
I also think that if that is the case then you should have to sit out one race so another guy gets a chance because there is allot of kids out there that might miss the qualifying by a half a second but they would push through the whole moto and give it 100% and would probably finish allot better.
I think this would be an incentive for the them to "fight to the finish" rather then just kind of give up because they are worn out.
Radical
Posts
2957
Joined
10/20/2012
Location
San Diego, CA, USA
8/25/2014 10:57am
RacerX8 wrote:
This is crazy, in a good way, I don't follow the GP's and should obviously! It should be part of AMA criteria, if you want to...
This is crazy, in a good way, I don't follow the GP's and should obviously! It should be part of AMA criteria, if you want to host a national event you have to meet a minimum lap time. Make every track have a lap of 2:30 (or more for example),keep the lappers to a minimum as this increases safety issues too
zippy895 wrote:
longer laps would help,blue flashing lites on portions of track,hell even some kind of projection screens in riders view (mirrors.lol),yes.but keep the starting gate full. don't...
longer laps would help,blue flashing lites on portions of track,hell even some kind of projection screens in riders view (mirrors.lol),yes.but keep the starting gate full.
don't keep the gates full,privateers will not bother and the entry fees,etc will diminish.not wise business decision.
RacerX8 wrote:
Yes keep the gate full! If you leave the startline, you cross the finishline unless you crash out or have a mechanical. To my understanding this...
Yes keep the gate full! If you leave the startline, you cross the finishline unless you crash out or have a mechanical. To my understanding this is how racing works.....
Amen!

Why do we keep having this conversation? Lappers will always be there. They are known obstacles in a race. Has anyone determined if KROC's almost crash was his fault or the lapper's?

It doesn't matter though. Lappers aren't even supposed to pull over, just hold their line. Everyone expects them to pull over as if an ambulance or fire truck was coming through. BS!

I would not pull over. I would not slow down. I would hold my line and look for ways to pass the guy in front of me. If the leader wants to pass me, he'll have to go around. If he's that much faster, then It shouldn't be too difficult for him. He doesn't own the track!

If (or when) he passes me I'd try to keep up with him for as long as I could. Heck, if I saw a way to pass, I'd pass him back.

This is racing, not girl scouts.

RbR
Posts
1086
Joined
12/9/2011
Location
Saint Paul, MN, USA
8/25/2014 11:45am
Lappers are part of the sport as much as doubles and corners. Just another obstacle to be anticipated and navigated.
huck
Posts
17050
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Mountain Home, AR, USA
8/25/2014 11:53am
So for somebody like Short that was lapped quickly because of a first turn crash....but passed more than half the field while finishing just outside the top 10...he should be removed from the race? Seems brilliant to me.....
endurox
Posts
2108
Joined
3/22/2014
Location
Garden City, ID, USA
8/25/2014 12:28pm
Adifferent angle on lappers. Give random 500$ blue flag bonuses to considerate lappers who get out of the way of the race leaders.
PressPassP
Posts
3329
Joined
3/3/2010
Location
Ipswich, GB
8/25/2014 2:11pm
huck wrote:
So for somebody like Short that was lapped quickly because of a first turn crash....but passed more than half the field while finishing just outside the...
So for somebody like Short that was lapped quickly because of a first turn crash....but passed more than half the field while finishing just outside the top 10...he should be removed from the race? Seems brilliant to me.....
No,personally I think the % rule has to be the most sensible option

Roczen could've lost the Championship by clashing with a guy running around 14 seconds a lap slower

(no disrespect to Mikhaylov,he has every right to be there and there were 8 guys with slower laptimes )
Cajun Kamikaze
Posts
281
Joined
6/28/2013
Location
Denham Springs, LA, USA
8/25/2014 2:20pm Edited Date/Time 8/25/2014 2:21pm
500guy wrote:
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes...
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes anyone outside 30th not on the lead lap gets flagged off.

Anyone who makes the Motos are bad ass rider no doubt but there are 3-4 different levels out there these day's.

I hate to see some guy getting beat to death out there affecting the results of the leaders.
Enjoy being a spectator and don't worry about what those guys are dealing with on the track... Front runners gotta deal with lappers and lappers gotta deal with getting beat by the track conditions... and peers.

NONE OF THIS SHOULD CHANGE.


Hey Jay
JB 19
Posts
4350
Joined
3/8/2009
Location
Marion, OH, USA
8/25/2014 2:26pm
I didn't read the whole thread, but in my opinion the lappers are worse because the tracks are shorter than they used to be.
philG
Posts
11264
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
8/25/2014 2:42pm Edited Date/Time 8/25/2014 3:03pm
Its a combinantion of shorter tracks and slower riders, or rather fewer fast riders.
Looking at the old results, it used to be a 35 rider field, and by comparision , comparing GP's to AMA, as a rule of thumb, the gap to any given place in qualifying is half the amount .... only 6 or 7 seconds covers the whole field , whereas that will nail to a top 10 in AMA.. thats the root cause, the strenght in depth isnt there , and hasny been for a long while in the 450 class, and with so many riders out too , its looking worse all the time.
mark_swart
Posts
2527
Joined
11/2/2011
Location
Chapin, SC, USA
8/25/2014 2:45pm
Out of curiosity, does anyone NOT think that paying points back to 40th would a good idea?
RbR
Posts
1086
Joined
12/9/2011
Location
Saint Paul, MN, USA
8/25/2014 3:38pm
mark_swart wrote:
Out of curiosity, does anyone NOT think that paying points back to 40th would a good idea?
1- 50 21- 20
2- 45 22- 19
3- 42 23- 18
4- 40 24- 17
5- 38 25- 16
6- 36 26- 15
7- 35 27- 14
8- 33 28- 13
9- 32 29- 12
10- 31 30- 11
11- 30 31- 10
12- 29 32- 9
13- 28 33- 8
14- 27 34- 7
15- 26 35- 6
16- 25 36- 5
17- 24 37- 4
18- 23 38- 3
19- 22 39- 2
20- 21 40- 1

Post a reply to: Lappers 15 minutes to stay on the lead lap

The Latest