FI 2 Stroke..

Ardfarkl
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Ardfarkl
Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 11:14am
Check this out. CRAZY looking!
http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/04/16/two-strokes-return-feature/
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ando
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ando 7/8/2014 11:12am
7/8/2014 11:12am
KTM has been down this path further than anyone I know of. I believe they've had a working prototype for a number of years now.

Problem is, when you add direct fuel injection to a two stroke dirtbike engine you lose the characteristics that two stroke advocates promote - low cost, low weight, simplicity.
shanhard
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shanhard 7/8/2014 11:32am
7/8/2014 11:32am Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 11:33am
What are you still doing up Ando, it's 2:30am in Perth, on a school night no less Wink

The date on that article is over 2 years old!

TWO-STROKES RETURN? – FEATURE
OSSA shows injected single-cylinder two-stroke engine.
April 16, 2012 By Kevin Cameron 1 Comment
ando
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ando 7/8/2014 11:39am
7/8/2014 11:39am
shanhard wrote:
What are you still doing up Ando, it's 2:30am in Perth, on a school night no less ;) The date on that article is over 2...
What are you still doing up Ando, it's 2:30am in Perth, on a school night no less Wink

The date on that article is over 2 years old!

TWO-STROKES RETURN? – FEATURE
OSSA shows injected single-cylinder two-stroke engine.
April 16, 2012 By Kevin Cameron 1 Comment
Ha! It's school holidays here Wink Actually I'm in Brisbane (east coast) so it's 4:30am.

Couldn't sleep, so I thought I'd check in for my daily news and entertainment on Vital Laughing
Spartacus
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Spartacus 7/8/2014 12:06pm
7/8/2014 12:06pm
Welcome to 2012.

The Shop

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endurox
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endurox 7/8/2014 12:32pm
7/8/2014 12:32pm
DI is in snowmobiles and outboard motors and Ossa has proved it in the off road arena. KTM/Husqvarna will bring a DI bike out
when more of the 4 stroke fad dies down(off-road not mx).
ando
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ando 7/8/2014 12:41pm
7/8/2014 12:41pm
endurox wrote:
DI is in snowmobiles and outboard motors and Ossa has proved it in the off road arena. KTM/Husqvarna will bring a DI bike out when more...
DI is in snowmobiles and outboard motors and Ossa has proved it in the off road arena. KTM/Husqvarna will bring a DI bike out
when more of the 4 stroke fad dies down(off-road not mx).
I wouldn't be so sure. Have a search around, there is material directly from KTM about the viability of DI two strokes.

I think I've posted some here in the past actually.

And I'd hardly call four strokes a fad - we're only a few years shy of twenty years since the YZ400M made its debut.
gjbruny
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gjbruny 7/8/2014 2:33pm
7/8/2014 2:33pm
if i remember correctly, there was a vid from KTM stating that the reason they haven't released the DI 2 strokes yet was due to cost..... that it would bring the cost of the bikes to the prices of 4 strokes. also if i remember correctly the new "euro emission" standards hit in either '16 or '17 and at that point they will be rolling out the DI 2 strokes.
jeffro503
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jeffro503 7/8/2014 2:43pm
7/8/2014 2:43pm
The FI on two strokes is not all that new.....but the design on that bike that Ardfarkl put up.....pretty cool , weird and interesting all at the same time.

I KNOW of a local ( very well known ) motor builder here in the NW that has done a lot of R&D on this very thing. There are a couple bikes up here that are running it.....and you would be amazed on how fast he can get a 125cc 2 stroke to go! I don't think any of the motor longevity is being lost.

I have seen one of his 85cc bikes......rip holeshot after holeshot......even with a bad jump off the gate! Very impressive to watch.
Ardfarkl
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Ardfarkl 7/8/2014 2:53pm
7/8/2014 2:53pm
That's what I was thinking. Pretty crazy looking design.
2T42
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2T42 7/8/2014 3:01pm
7/8/2014 3:01pm
So if the DI 2 strokes are faster... the new displacement rule should be 125cc DI 2 strokes vs 450cc 4 strokes.

tek14
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tek14 7/8/2014 3:15pm
7/8/2014 3:15pm
What i heard KTM has 300cc 2-stroke DI enduro bike they could come out. They have some cool stuff like that airshock but all this will cost more than old design and delayed for different reasons. 125cc would be really interesting one for MX.
loftyair
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loftyair 7/8/2014 4:56pm
7/8/2014 4:56pm
endurox wrote:
DI is in snowmobiles and outboard motors and Ossa has proved it in the off road arena. KTM/Husqvarna will bring a DI bike out when more...
DI is in snowmobiles and outboard motors and Ossa has proved it in the off road arena. KTM/Husqvarna will bring a DI bike out
when more of the 4 stroke fad dies down(off-road not mx).
ando wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure. Have a search around, there is material directly from KTM about the viability of DI two strokes. I think I've posted...
I wouldn't be so sure. Have a search around, there is material directly from KTM about the viability of DI two strokes.

I think I've posted some here in the past actually.

And I'd hardly call four strokes a fad - we're only a few years shy of twenty years since the YZ400M made its debut.
Kawi made the 250 4-stroke available in 06, still less than 10 years for this fad I can't wait to go away.
loftyair
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loftyair 7/8/2014 4:57pm
7/8/2014 4:57pm
jeffro503 wrote:
The FI on two strokes is not all that new.....but the design on that bike that Ardfarkl put up.....pretty cool , weird and interesting all at...
The FI on two strokes is not all that new.....but the design on that bike that Ardfarkl put up.....pretty cool , weird and interesting all at the same time.

I KNOW of a local ( very well known ) motor builder here in the NW that has done a lot of R&D on this very thing. There are a couple bikes up here that are running it.....and you would be amazed on how fast he can get a 125cc 2 stroke to go! I don't think any of the motor longevity is being lost.

I have seen one of his 85cc bikes......rip holeshot after holeshot......even with a bad jump off the gate! Very impressive to watch.
Your FIREd for 1! Haha
Lonestar_399 7/8/2014 6:24pm
7/8/2014 6:24pm
That exhaust pipe is a work of art.
Hamish F
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Hamish F 7/8/2014 7:15pm
7/8/2014 7:15pm


New Zealand doing FI two strokes right.
Ebs
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Ebs 7/8/2014 7:34pm
7/8/2014 7:34pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 7:38pm
FI by itself on a 2-stroke isn't very exciting, but when you think about what you can package it with is when it becomes cool. Programmable electronic powervalves, engine mapping/timing, etc. All those variables that are opened up for better adjustment with some programming.

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ando
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ando 7/8/2014 7:50pm
7/8/2014 7:50pm
Ebs wrote:
FI by itself on a 2-stroke isn't very exciting, but when you think about what you can package it with is when it becomes cool. Programmable...
FI by itself on a 2-stroke isn't very exciting, but when you think about what you can package it with is when it becomes cool. Programmable electronic powervalves, engine mapping/timing, etc. All those variables that are opened up for better adjustment with some programming.
Problem is, regular FI doesn't solve the main issues for two strokes - poor fuel economy and high emissions. To solve those issues you need direct injection and much better scavenging techniques, both of which add extra components, complexity, weight and cost.
Ebs
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Ebs 7/8/2014 8:58pm
7/8/2014 8:58pm
Only if you care about that hippy stuff, we're talking racing performance...Wink

Honda had some cool 2-stroke bikes that addressed that stuff back in the 90's. The prototype EXP-2 that raced Dakar and a production bike of that technology, the CRM250AR, that was sold in Japan. There's a bit of info on the web on them. I guess they said they were seeing better emissions and fuel economy than the 4-strokes of that time.

million
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million 7/8/2014 9:16pm
7/8/2014 9:16pm
Hamish F wrote:


New Zealand doing FI two strokes right.
Awesome! Just awesome!

All the good stuff and non or the bad. Isn't likely to weight much more. Programmable _consistency). No particularly special parts, at least no "unobtainanium". Engine is the same meaning service parts are straightforward. There's a lot to like about what they've done here.

As someone mentioned with programmable ecu's controlling power valves and timing it would surely be epic. Imagining it on a new generation TM with the EES power valves right now...hmmm
jeffro503
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jeffro503 7/8/2014 9:42pm
7/8/2014 9:42pm
jeffro503 wrote:
The FI on two strokes is not all that new.....but the design on that bike that Ardfarkl put up.....pretty cool , weird and interesting all at...
The FI on two strokes is not all that new.....but the design on that bike that Ardfarkl put up.....pretty cool , weird and interesting all at the same time.

I KNOW of a local ( very well known ) motor builder here in the NW that has done a lot of R&D on this very thing. There are a couple bikes up here that are running it.....and you would be amazed on how fast he can get a 125cc 2 stroke to go! I don't think any of the motor longevity is being lost.

I have seen one of his 85cc bikes......rip holeshot after holeshot......even with a bad jump off the gate! Very impressive to watch.
loftyair wrote:
Your FIREd for 1! Haha
You got it man! They are some extremely good running machines!
c_dub
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c_dub 7/8/2014 11:17pm
7/8/2014 11:17pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 11:17pm
ando wrote:
KTM has been down this path further than anyone I know of. I believe they've had a working prototype for a number of years now. Problem...
KTM has been down this path further than anyone I know of. I believe they've had a working prototype for a number of years now.

Problem is, when you add direct fuel injection to a two stroke dirtbike engine you lose the characteristics that two stroke advocates promote - low cost, low weight, simplicity.
Very true on your last point. I've said it before by I think the metering rod carbs (Lectron and APT) could help make two strokes more viable again. They're the best of both worlds or maybe the best compromise at this point? Not only are they simpler than DI they're even simpler than standard carbs! APT claims their carbs atomize fuel better than even EFI (no claims as to DI). And those that run them will tell you how great the performance gains are. Just my opinion based on some research (of which I need to do more).
Ghost of Jabroni 7/9/2014 9:47pm
7/9/2014 9:47pm
Ebs wrote:
Only if you care about that hippy stuff, we're talking racing performance...;) Honda had some cool 2-stroke bikes that addressed that stuff back in the 90's...
Only if you care about that hippy stuff, we're talking racing performance...Wink

Honda had some cool 2-stroke bikes that addressed that stuff back in the 90's. The prototype EXP-2 that raced Dakar and a production bike of that technology, the CRM250AR, that was sold in Japan. There's a bit of info on the web on them. I guess they said they were seeing better emissions and fuel economy than the 4-strokes of that time.

I believe it.

But what's the incentive for a mfg to produce a bike that is more reliable and cheaper to maintain?
Ghost of Jabroni 7/9/2014 11:41pm
7/9/2014 11:41pm
tek14 wrote:
What i heard KTM has 300cc 2-stroke DI enduro bike they could come out. They have some cool stuff like that airshock but all this will...
What i heard KTM has 300cc 2-stroke DI enduro bike they could come out. They have some cool stuff like that airshock but all this will cost more than old design and delayed for different reasons. 125cc would be really interesting one for MX.
I wish they'd focus on that air shock. I hate that every bike I buy I have to get resprung ASAP.
ando
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ando 7/10/2014 11:32am
7/10/2014 11:32am
ando wrote:
KTM has been down this path further than anyone I know of. I believe they've had a working prototype for a number of years now. Problem...
KTM has been down this path further than anyone I know of. I believe they've had a working prototype for a number of years now.

Problem is, when you add direct fuel injection to a two stroke dirtbike engine you lose the characteristics that two stroke advocates promote - low cost, low weight, simplicity.
c_dub wrote:
Very true on your last point. I've said it before by I think the metering rod carbs (Lectron and APT) could help make two strokes more...
Very true on your last point. I've said it before by I think the metering rod carbs (Lectron and APT) could help make two strokes more viable again. They're the best of both worlds or maybe the best compromise at this point? Not only are they simpler than DI they're even simpler than standard carbs! APT claims their carbs atomize fuel better than even EFI (no claims as to DI). And those that run them will tell you how great the performance gains are. Just my opinion based on some research (of which I need to do more).
The problem for diirtbike two strokes isn't the fuel metering method, it's the charging and scavenging system. Great for low weight, good power and simplicity, not so great for efficiency and emissions.
ando
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ando 7/10/2014 11:42am
7/10/2014 11:42am
Ebs wrote:
Only if you care about that hippy stuff, we're talking racing performance...;) Honda had some cool 2-stroke bikes that addressed that stuff back in the 90's...
Only if you care about that hippy stuff, we're talking racing performance...Wink

Honda had some cool 2-stroke bikes that addressed that stuff back in the 90's. The prototype EXP-2 that raced Dakar and a production bike of that technology, the CRM250AR, that was sold in Japan. There's a bit of info on the web on them. I guess they said they were seeing better emissions and fuel economy than the 4-strokes of that time.

Ghost of Jabroni wrote:
I believe it.

But what's the incentive for a mfg to produce a bike that is more reliable and cheaper to maintain?
The thing is that people mistakenly believe it's a matter of whacking an injector on and away you go. As I said before, KTM have been down this path, and have publicly stated that the technology doesn't offer enough yet. They are waiting for new emission regs in a few years to see what happens.
goinrcn44h
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goinrcn44h 7/10/2014 2:22pm
7/10/2014 2:22pm
The design is very interesting, the pipe.... a thing of freaking beauty!!!
me_da_racer
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me_da_racer 7/10/2014 3:54pm
7/10/2014 3:54pm
ando wrote:
The problem for diirtbike two strokes isn't the fuel metering method, it's the charging and scavenging system. Great for low weight, good power and simplicity, not...
The problem for diirtbike two strokes isn't the fuel metering method, it's the charging and scavenging system. Great for low weight, good power and simplicity, not so great for efficiency and emissions.
One big point that people are missing is, in the good o' U.S. of A. there is no emissions on closed course vehicles.
Flip109
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Flip109 3/23/2015 6:46am
3/23/2015 6:46am
Sorry to dig this up. But I was bored at work this morning. Thinking about this very thing. So can someone post a list of the benefits and costs of a FI 2 stroke? Would a FI YZ250 be easier to ride for example? Obviously the cost would go up but with new 4 stroke bikes getting near 10K doesn't seem to matter anyway.

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