Chad Watts On Two Strokes

Crush
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6/6/2014 7:57am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2014 7:58am
I think you're implying a majority of riders are homeschooled and probably are so common sense is out the window. I've learned to ride within my...
I think you're implying a majority of riders are homeschooled and probably are so common sense is out the window. I've learned to ride within my abilities ( which are not much ) but ride a four stroke and there is no way I would go back.
Wasn't implying you were or that most are... More a comment on what you say about HAVING to do something because you can or others do..

There's lots of people who ride bikes, I'd be lying if I said I thought most of them were clever! None of us are, we ride bikes! It IS dangerous. It does make us smile. "We" will push the limits of our own abilities– I just don't know that assisting that with faster and faster bikes is a good idea.

I do ride a 4 stroke currently. I also happen to have the opinion that the bikes are too fast for joe-schmo. Easy to ride yeah. Of course. Faster. Of course. Better to race where lap times matter, of course.

But speed kills. In anything. Faster you go, the more serious the consequences. Doesn't matter if you're running, skiing, snowboarding, or riding.
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 8:01am
Saying you HAVE TO jump the biggest jump on the track because you have a four stroke is like saying you HAVE TO drive the mountain...
Saying you HAVE TO jump the biggest jump on the track because you have a four stroke is like saying you HAVE TO drive the mountain road at 150 mph because you have a Ferrari. It's flawed thinking in my opinion.
Another thought is, extreme sports evolve. They will continue to get bigger and go bigger. In freestyle MX you didn't see the riders say "Well, Cary Hart did a backflip, let's pack it up and go home."
newmann wrote:
Didn't they drop the "best trick" from the X games due to the carnage? Maybe the FMX crew is actually smarter that the MX crew. Damn...
Didn't they drop the "best trick" from the X games due to the carnage? Maybe the FMX crew is actually smarter that the MX crew.

Damn, did I just say that????Laughing
HAHAa! Ouch.
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 8:13am
I think you're implying a majority of riders are homeschooled and probably are so common sense is out the window. I've learned to ride within my...
I think you're implying a majority of riders are homeschooled and probably are so common sense is out the window. I've learned to ride within my abilities ( which are not much ) but ride a four stroke and there is no way I would go back.
Crush wrote:
Wasn't implying you were or that most are... More a comment on what you say about HAVING to do something because you can or others do...
Wasn't implying you were or that most are... More a comment on what you say about HAVING to do something because you can or others do..

There's lots of people who ride bikes, I'd be lying if I said I thought most of them were clever! None of us are, we ride bikes! It IS dangerous. It does make us smile. "We" will push the limits of our own abilities– I just don't know that assisting that with faster and faster bikes is a good idea.

I do ride a 4 stroke currently. I also happen to have the opinion that the bikes are too fast for joe-schmo. Easy to ride yeah. Of course. Faster. Of course. Better to race where lap times matter, of course.

But speed kills. In anything. Faster you go, the more serious the consequences. Doesn't matter if you're running, skiing, snowboarding, or riding.
I can see where you guys are coming from but what did everybody say when the mayor of New York City banned Large sodas. Hell No! It's all about personal responsibility. If you wanna buy a 2 smoke, buy a 2 smoke. If you wanna buy a 4 stroke, buy a 4 stroke.
peelout
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6/6/2014 8:13am
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I...
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I had brought along for the day to break in, and mentioned he had a 2012, but his son was ready to move up to a 250f because he couldn't get over the jumps on the 125, but if he jumped on a buddies 250 it was no problems. After watching them later, his kid was all of 120 lbs and beginner status. He needed practice in the corners, not more power. Hell, my 125 pulled my 170 lb ass over all the jumps just fine.
best post in the thread, right here.

well said.

The Shop

Flatliner
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6/6/2014 8:40am
Personally I think it's tracks, not the bikes. At the end of the day it's still up to the rider when to twist the throttle and when to not.

I ride for fun, not to impress anyone, also not to pay the bills, I keep that in mind when I throw a leg over the bike.
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 8:44am
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I...
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I had brought along for the day to break in, and mentioned he had a 2012, but his son was ready to move up to a 250f because he couldn't get over the jumps on the 125, but if he jumped on a buddies 250 it was no problems. After watching them later, his kid was all of 120 lbs and beginner status. He needed practice in the corners, not more power. Hell, my 125 pulled my 170 lb ass over all the jumps just fine.
This is an example of an irresponsible parent and not much else. Since when have parents not taken responsibilty for the effect their decisions make on their kids safety and health. Dumb parents equal dumb kids and so on. Its called survival of the fittest.
6/6/2014 8:45am
I can see where you guys are coming from but what did everybody say when the mayor of New York City banned Large sodas. Hell No...
I can see where you guys are coming from but what did everybody say when the mayor of New York City banned Large sodas. Hell No! It's all about personal responsibility. If you wanna buy a 2 smoke, buy a 2 smoke. If you wanna buy a 4 stroke, buy a 4 stroke.
But I want a 2014 Honder CR 300.....cant get one
hvaughn88
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6/6/2014 8:48am
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I...
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I had brought along for the day to break in, and mentioned he had a 2012, but his son was ready to move up to a 250f because he couldn't get over the jumps on the 125, but if he jumped on a buddies 250 it was no problems. After watching them later, his kid was all of 120 lbs and beginner status. He needed practice in the corners, not more power. Hell, my 125 pulled my 170 lb ass over all the jumps just fine.
This is an example of an irresponsible parent and not much else. Since when have parents not taken responsibilty for the effect their decisions make on...
This is an example of an irresponsible parent and not much else. Since when have parents not taken responsibilty for the effect their decisions make on their kids safety and health. Dumb parents equal dumb kids and so on. Its called survival of the fittest.
haha, well if you're gonna go with the survival of the fittest argument, then just go ahead and scratch all the moto guys off the evolutionary list because even participating in the sport is a poor way to ensure successful continuation of progeny.
JBlain619
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6/6/2014 8:49am
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I...
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I had brought along for the day to break in, and mentioned he had a 2012, but his son was ready to move up to a 250f because he couldn't get over the jumps on the 125, but if he jumped on a buddies 250 it was no problems. After watching them later, his kid was all of 120 lbs and beginner status. He needed practice in the corners, not more power. Hell, my 125 pulled my 170 lb ass over all the jumps just fine.
peelout wrote:
best post in the thread, right here.

well said.
Agreed!
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 9:19am
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I...
I was at the track last weekend and a guy came up to me to ask the practice schedule. He commented on my 125 that I had brought along for the day to break in, and mentioned he had a 2012, but his son was ready to move up to a 250f because he couldn't get over the jumps on the 125, but if he jumped on a buddies 250 it was no problems. After watching them later, his kid was all of 120 lbs and beginner status. He needed practice in the corners, not more power. Hell, my 125 pulled my 170 lb ass over all the jumps just fine.
This is an example of an irresponsible parent and not much else. Since when have parents not taken responsibilty for the effect their decisions make on...
This is an example of an irresponsible parent and not much else. Since when have parents not taken responsibilty for the effect their decisions make on their kids safety and health. Dumb parents equal dumb kids and so on. Its called survival of the fittest.
hvaughn88 wrote:
haha, well if you're gonna go with the survival of the fittest argument, then just go ahead and scratch all the moto guys off the evolutionary...
haha, well if you're gonna go with the survival of the fittest argument, then just go ahead and scratch all the moto guys off the evolutionary list because even participating in the sport is a poor way to ensure successful continuation of progeny.
As you know, it's not as cut and dried as I stated but it's common sense. If you do away with 4 strokes and the kid at the track can't clear a jump on a 125 then what says the dad won't think the kid needs a 250 2 stroke. Parents need to take responsibility for theirs and their kids decisions.
Darryl916
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6/6/2014 9:22am
I'll simply add my experience to the mix.

I started racing mx after the 2-strokes had gone. I currently ride/race a 2012 CRF450 decently fast for a regular +30 dude (mid pack 30+ B, podium 30+ C, top 10 Open C). About 2 months ago I purchased a bone stock mint 07 CR250R to add to my collection. Although I haven't spent a ton of time on it yet, as of now I can't ride that thing for shit! So hard to be smooth and carry momentum. Power is extremely touchy with a much shorter and more racey burst. I'd say that thing will probably hurt me sooner than than my 450. The 4 strokes are heavier and faster but are so smooth, predictable, and confidence inspiring. The 2 stroke feels like a 50HP mountain bike with an attitude problem. I'm not sure if I'm riding it or it's riding me half the time. I'm not sure how that would make the sport safer.... Maybe it would scare the shit out of, and run away everyone but the extremely talented, stupid, or hard core riders.

My 450 in the right hands could win an A class moto and still be ridden around the yard by my basically skilled quad riding girlfriend. Where as my CR250R at first crack of the throttle would probably put her thru the neighbors fence before she knew what happened and that bike would not win anything serious in any hands. Feel free to dispute me. I think I paint a descent picture. They are both fun and server their own purpose. I simple feel that if you are non-biased you have to admit the 4 strokes are leaps and bounds ahead of the old 2 strokes. No mixing gas. None of the constant jetting issues. None of the air leaks and runaway throttles. Power valve cleaning/sticking. Worn out reeds. Top ends cheaper but way more often. A 4 stroke is gas and go for a long time. Keep it and the air filter clean, oil changed and you're golden.

mxfiend
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6/6/2014 9:45am
Darryl916 wrote:
I'll simply add my experience to the mix. I started racing mx after the 2-strokes had gone. I currently ride/race a 2012 CRF450 decently fast for...
I'll simply add my experience to the mix.

I started racing mx after the 2-strokes had gone. I currently ride/race a 2012 CRF450 decently fast for a regular +30 dude (mid pack 30+ B, podium 30+ C, top 10 Open C). About 2 months ago I purchased a bone stock mint 07 CR250R to add to my collection. Although I haven't spent a ton of time on it yet, as of now I can't ride that thing for shit! So hard to be smooth and carry momentum. Power is extremely touchy with a much shorter and more racey burst. I'd say that thing will probably hurt me sooner than than my 450. The 4 strokes are heavier and faster but are so smooth, predictable, and confidence inspiring. The 2 stroke feels like a 50HP mountain bike with an attitude problem. I'm not sure if I'm riding it or it's riding me half the time. I'm not sure how that would make the sport safer.... Maybe it would scare the shit out of, and run away everyone but the extremely talented, stupid, or hard core riders.

My 450 in the right hands could win an A class moto and still be ridden around the yard by my basically skilled quad riding girlfriend. Where as my CR250R at first crack of the throttle would probably put her thru the neighbors fence before she knew what happened and that bike would not win anything serious in any hands. Feel free to dispute me. I think I paint a descent picture. They are both fun and server their own purpose. I simple feel that if you are non-biased you have to admit the 4 strokes are leaps and bounds ahead of the old 2 strokes. No mixing gas. None of the constant jetting issues. None of the air leaks and runaway throttles. Power valve cleaning/sticking. Worn out reeds. Top ends cheaper but way more often. A 4 stroke is gas and go for a long time. Keep it and the air filter clean, oil changed and you're golden.

... u said its confidence inspiring... thats the biggest issue on this thread is 100 lb kids that feel confident to try stuff tgey dont have the skills to do and end up in the hospital. look at ac he is more skilled than anyone here or locally and he said himself bones wouldnt let him ride the 250f until he weighed over 120. kids jumping off 85s and 105s have no place jumping to a 250f right away
CamP
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6/6/2014 9:48am
It may seem counter intuitive, but the easier to ride 4-strokes allow unskilled riders to write checks that their bodies can't cash. This is why we now have beginners hitting 90'+ jumps at our local tracks, and when it goes wrong for them, they end up getting a careflight ride out.

The more difficult to ride 2-strokes are actually safer because a rider's skills, or lack thereof, can't be covered up by an easy to ride bike. The result is the unskilled rider slows down and approaches jumps with more caution, out of self preservation, when riding a 2-stroke.
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 9:50am
I can see where you guys are coming from but what did everybody say when the mayor of New York City banned Large sodas. Hell No...
I can see where you guys are coming from but what did everybody say when the mayor of New York City banned Large sodas. Hell No! It's all about personal responsibility. If you wanna buy a 2 smoke, buy a 2 smoke. If you wanna buy a 4 stroke, buy a 4 stroke.
But I want a 2014 Honder CR 300.....cant get one
Who doesn't?
Gringoe
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6/6/2014 9:59am
I just think it's the added weight of the motorcycle and the relative ease to get traction and go is what is making these bikes dangerous to the young kids getting off 80s.

125 class guys.......We need it at the pro level and for it to be the class you HAVE to race before you can race 250fs and 450s. They know they need it in Europe.
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 10:02am
CamP wrote:
It may seem counter intuitive, but the easier to ride 4-strokes allow unskilled riders to write checks that their bodies can't cash. This is why we...
It may seem counter intuitive, but the easier to ride 4-strokes allow unskilled riders to write checks that their bodies can't cash. This is why we now have beginners hitting 90'+ jumps at our local tracks, and when it goes wrong for them, they end up getting a careflight ride out.

The more difficult to ride 2-strokes are actually safer because a rider's skills, or lack thereof, can't be covered up by an easy to ride bike. The result is the unskilled rider slows down and approaches jumps with more caution, out of self preservation, when riding a 2-stroke.
These are the same riders that were wadding up on the 60' jump fifteen years ago on their 125's. It would be interesting to see some hard facts if more or less injuries happened then or now. Granted the 90' jumps you have more speed but I'll bet safety gear and conditioning is better now than it was then. Zach Bell's get off in supercross is a good example of that.

JBlain619
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6/6/2014 10:06am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2014 11:29am
Just got off the phone with some folks that are at the regional at Muddy Creek and some at Red Bud. They've made both tracks a freeway and this is an issue. The tracks have become too fast and not technical at all.(thus my throttle jockey comment) When you have amateurs in 5th gear wide open, theres bound to be carnage. Track owners have to make their tracks more technical. I'm not talking more jumps. I'm talking off cambers, switchbacks, deep ruts etc.
CamP
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6/6/2014 10:22am
These are the same riders that were wadding up on the 60' jump fifteen years ago on their 125's. It would be interesting to see some...
These are the same riders that were wadding up on the 60' jump fifteen years ago on their 125's. It would be interesting to see some hard facts if more or less injuries happened then or now. Granted the 90' jumps you have more speed but I'll bet safety gear and conditioning is better now than it was then. Zach Bell's get off in supercross is a good example of that.

You don't understand simple physics if you think a 60' jump related crash results in the same force as a 90' jump related crash. Physical training and riding gear isn't going to reduce the forces applied to the body when crashing on a 90'+ jump.

Force = Mass x Acceleration
Homey55
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6/6/2014 10:29am
Is it not the consumers resposability anymore? As a parent, I am resposable for my kids and myself. The manufacturers will continue to sell what they have a demand for and the promotors will continue to hold races for what they have a demand for.

This is the problem with society today, we get bombarded with TV and advertising and pushed into something we think is right. For some people a 450 is the right bike and others need to be on an XR/TTR.

You cannot blame the manufacturers/promotors for pushing the 250/450F's. There are other classes available for the 2 strokes and the 2 strokes are permitted to ride in the same classes as 4 strokes. The parents of the kids (under 18) need to take a carful look at the safety of their child and decide what bike they should be on. The parents need to be accountable for their child.

As far as tracks, there should be some standard for every track that is approved by the AMA or whatever sanctioning body is over that track. BMX does this through ABA. The ABA comes out and builds the track to make sure it meets their standards in design and safety. This should be so obvious, but it's not! And tracks need to make sure big bikes are never on the track with little bikes. It seems like a lot of accidents are caused by this as well.
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 10:36am
These are the same riders that were wadding up on the 60' jump fifteen years ago on their 125's. It would be interesting to see some...
These are the same riders that were wadding up on the 60' jump fifteen years ago on their 125's. It would be interesting to see some hard facts if more or less injuries happened then or now. Granted the 90' jumps you have more speed but I'll bet safety gear and conditioning is better now than it was then. Zach Bell's get off in supercross is a good example of that.

CamP wrote:
You don't understand simple physics if you think a 60' jump related crash results in the same force as a 90' jump related crash. Physical training...
You don't understand simple physics if you think a 60' jump related crash results in the same force as a 90' jump related crash. Physical training and riding gear isn't going to reduce the forces applied to the body when crashing on a 90'+ jump.

Force = Mass x Acceleration
Wow, you hit harder when going faster, really? Sarcasm off
Apparently you didn't get my point about conditioning and safety equipment. They are better today so riders can take a bigger hit then they could years ago. I remember years ago watching James Stewart racing with Ricky and he took such a huge tumble I felt an average Joe would have died. But, thanks to conditioning and top end safety equipment he bounced up and got back on the bike an finished the race.
BobPA
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6/6/2014 10:39am
JBlain619 wrote:
^^^ Absolutely correct. The skill that it takes to ride a 2 stroke big bike fast is lost on todays generation. They have all become throttle...
^^^ Absolutely correct. The skill that it takes to ride a 2 stroke big bike fast is lost on todays generation. They have all become throttle jockeys.
The art has been lost because it is no longer needed. Times have changed bro. Nothing you can do about it
CamP
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6/6/2014 10:41am
Wow, you hit harder when going faster, really? Sarcasm off Apparently you didn't get my point about conditioning and safety equipment. They are better today so...
Wow, you hit harder when going faster, really? Sarcasm off
Apparently you didn't get my point about conditioning and safety equipment. They are better today so riders can take a bigger hit then they could years ago. I remember years ago watching James Stewart racing with Ricky and he took such a huge tumble I felt an average Joe would have died. But, thanks to conditioning and top end safety equipment he bounced up and got back on the bike an finished the race.
Like I said before, I've seen unskilled riders hitting 90'+ jumps, and when they crash, they don't "bounce up and get back on the bike". They get air lifted out of the track.
Racer92
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6/6/2014 10:46am
CamP wrote:
Like I said before, I've seen unskilled riders hitting 90'+ jumps, and when they crash, they don't "bounce up and get back on the bike". They...
Like I said before, I've seen unskilled riders hitting 90'+ jumps, and when they crash, they don't "bounce up and get back on the bike". They get air lifted out of the track.
CamP gets it.
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 10:46am
Wow, you hit harder when going faster, really? Sarcasm off Apparently you didn't get my point about conditioning and safety equipment. They are better today so...
Wow, you hit harder when going faster, really? Sarcasm off
Apparently you didn't get my point about conditioning and safety equipment. They are better today so riders can take a bigger hit then they could years ago. I remember years ago watching James Stewart racing with Ricky and he took such a huge tumble I felt an average Joe would have died. But, thanks to conditioning and top end safety equipment he bounced up and got back on the bike an finished the race.
CamP wrote:
Like I said before, I've seen unskilled riders hitting 90'+ jumps, and when they crash, they don't "bounce up and get back on the bike". They...
Like I said before, I've seen unskilled riders hitting 90'+ jumps, and when they crash, they don't "bounce up and get back on the bike". They get air lifted out of the track.
Again, survival of the fittest. There are a lot of idiots out there and you can't save everybody.
newmann
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6/6/2014 10:53am
Whole lot of dumb in this thread. But at least it's the same old dumb that sells. "Can't change it Bro".....
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 10:58am
newmann wrote:
Whole lot of dumb in this thread. But at least it's the same old dumb that sells. "Can't change it Bro".....
Well I'm glad I could contribute to sales!
FlaNard
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6/6/2014 10:58am
4-strokes have brought NOTHING to the sport other than the ability for squids to ride over their heads easier. That's it. The local tracks are empty. But as some of the four stroke guys on here say, who cares if they cant afford it? Its a rich mans sport now...Angry
Vonripper450
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6/6/2014 11:01am
FlaNard wrote:
4-strokes have brought NOTHING to the sport other than the ability for squids to ride over their heads easier. That's it. The local tracks are empty...
4-strokes have brought NOTHING to the sport other than the ability for squids to ride over their heads easier. That's it. The local tracks are empty. But as some of the four stroke guys on here say, who cares if they cant afford it? Its a rich mans sport now...Angry
Maybe we could get the government involved because the danger 4 strokes pose and we could get them outlawed like those pesky 3-wheelers. I think that's what some are advocating here right?
6/6/2014 11:08am
These are the same riders that were wadding up on the 60' jump fifteen years ago on their 125's. It would be interesting to see some...
These are the same riders that were wadding up on the 60' jump fifteen years ago on their 125's. It would be interesting to see some hard facts if more or less injuries happened then or now. Granted the 90' jumps you have more speed but I'll bet safety gear and conditioning is better now than it was then. Zach Bell's get off in supercross is a good example of that.

CamP wrote:
You don't understand simple physics if you think a 60' jump related crash results in the same force as a 90' jump related crash. Physical training...
You don't understand simple physics if you think a 60' jump related crash results in the same force as a 90' jump related crash. Physical training and riding gear isn't going to reduce the forces applied to the body when crashing on a 90'+ jump.

Force = Mass x Acceleration
Wow, you hit harder when going faster, really? Sarcasm off Apparently you didn't get my point about conditioning and safety equipment. They are better today so...
Wow, you hit harder when going faster, really? Sarcasm off
Apparently you didn't get my point about conditioning and safety equipment. They are better today so riders can take a bigger hit then they could years ago. I remember years ago watching James Stewart racing with Ricky and he took such a huge tumble I felt an average Joe would have died. But, thanks to conditioning and top end safety equipment he bounced up and got back on the bike an finished the race.
Better safety equipment?

Maybe my eyes deceive me, but young Zach's jersey, gloves and pants don't appear to protect him any better than the stuff I have in a box somewhere in my garage marked "12-6-91 motocross gear".

Better boots; yeah a little bit. Better helmet and knee braces; certainly. Neck brace- highly questionable.

Safety equipment has certainly lagged behind bike development, as has track safety. To be fair, it's like that in all forms of racing. Look no further than the history of Formula One for a prime example.
ATKpilot99
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6/6/2014 11:13am
I think he posted that because he knew it would start a shitstorm here .

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