Are the 450's too powerfull?

Hank_Thrill
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Edited Date/Time 5/29/2013 12:06pm
Hello, this my first post. I've been a follower of the sport for about 15 years... I just registered here due to Blair Morgan's tragic accident to spread some of my thoughts on the increasing number of professional rider injuries as of late.

I'm not sure what the specifics of his wreck were. And what I mean by that is that each wreck has a series of events that make it what it was (not every wreck is the same and each have a unique set of variables in contrast to other wrecks). However, Statistically speaking though, if you look at injury rates lately - at least on the professional level -things do seem to be getting worse.

Now it disturbs me to sit back and watch as more and more riders severely injure themselves. This wreck appears to be the worst this year thus far for a professional racer, but this season has to be the worst season as far as factory riders sitting out on the bench goes.


Here is something I typed after Mike Alessi's crash this summer....

"We can all agree the AMA has done some pretty stupid stuff in the past; I just happen to believe the people who set the rule in stone for the new displacement size of "big bike" four strokes were not a group of thinkers.

Eventually, there will come a time - just like in other motor-racing sports - when the technology out-weighs human ability, and human safety. When that time comes, actions will be taken to limit the power of these bikes. Maybe it will be ten years from now, maybe it will be twenty, who knows, but the time will come. I just feel (and this is my personal opinion) that the time is now.

Nothing will change anytime soon as far as the power output of these bikes go - so I'm not looking forward to it, or expecting anything. Instead, we will sit back and watch as more and more top factory riders continue to destroy themselves trying to run a pace on these machines that only a handful of the people on the planet have reached. If riders continue to get injured at this rate, eventually the cause and the solution will be so obvious to everyone that something will eventually happen. Hopefully, it's just minor injuries like we have been seeing lately, instead of more cases like Ernesto Fonseca. In NASCAR, it took the death of racing legend Dale Earnhardt to snap everybody into action concerning new safety standards, when something could have been done long before the sport mourned the death of on of their greatest hero’s.

I think the reason so many riders are injured, now than ever, especially since the 450 take-over, is due to the power of these machines. 250cc two strokes seemed kind of like racing with restrictor plates compared to the way things are now. Riders were able to ride those things to their limit, and it showed with the aggressive style they rode those bikes.

I always remember a few factory riders being out during a supercross or motocross season, but now more riders are out than ever. Factory teams are losing all their riders due to injury and having to hire "3rd and 4th" string riders (metaphorically) just to fill the spot.

Take Mike Alessi's crash for instance. He said himself that he was trying to pass James back immediately and went too fast. All year long he's talked about not riding over his head etc. in a lot of the post race interviews I’ve watched. But from what he said about his recent crash, he was so caught up in the moment he went all out for a moment trying to take the lead. Maybe if he was on a RM250, he wouldn't have been allowed to reach a speed in that area of the track that was apparently over his head.

That may sound stupid to some, but the point is. People are more prone to crash when they are riding over there head. And lately over the past several years, it almost appears that these machines have so much power it allows pros to ride over their heads, more so now than in the past. They all have the same goal: to put in good results, but while doing so on these incredibly powerful machines they seem to be dropping like flies.

I still firmly believe James, Chad Reed, and Ricky Carmichael are really the only people in America able to ride these machines to their limit. I remember Mike Gossler, during Ricky's fuel crisis, saying they have no need to cheat because the bikes almost have too much power.


So, it seems like this slew of professional motocross riders are some of the worst at keeping it on two wheels. Or the bikes may have a bit too much power, and I highly doubt it is the first."

~ End



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Brent
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9/22/2008 3:45pm
Most other motorsports have taken steps to slow things down a bit over the last few years, but not motocross.

These 450's are just too much motorcycle for 99 percent of racers, both pro and amateur. Does it seem like there are more tragic injuries lately with the big bikes than there used to be with the 250 two stroke?



flarider
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9/22/2008 3:50pm
Brent wrote:
Most other motorsports have taken steps to slow things down a bit over the last few years, but not motocross. These 450's are just too much...
Most other motorsports have taken steps to slow things down a bit over the last few years, but not motocross.

These 450's are just too much motorcycle for 99 percent of racers, both pro and amateur. Does it seem like there are more tragic injuries lately with the big bikes than there used to be with the 250 two stroke?



Motodrew295
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9/22/2008 3:52pm
I agree %100 propane man.
twizzler
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9/22/2008 4:18pm
Agreed on the too powerful quotes.

The Shop

9/22/2008 4:34pm Edited Date/Time 9/22/2008 4:59pm
I wouldn't say they are "too" powerful, I mean in my day, men rode 500cc two strokes!! Are telling the 450 is more powerful than a 500cc 2 smoke? Just a thought...



Anyhow, to add a little to that statement, the bikes(450 and 250F) have advanced so much in handling and the power delivery of the thumper is so good(traction), that the track builder have had to build tracks to be more challenging!! The obstacles have gotten bigger, farther apart. If you put these bikes on the old tracks of say even 5 years ago, they would jump a whole section in one leap!! A 450 is way easier to ride than a 500cc 2 stroke, you never saw a novice ride a 500 in the day, but now, even beginners ride 450s!! Any pro can definitely handle the 450, by the time you get to even local pro, you know how to ride!! Just my take, please discuss farther.
Devil1nNj
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9/22/2008 4:36pm
I hate the injuries we hear of.
My personal opinion is we have more riders participating in the sport then ever before.
We have a means of communication in the form of the internet that has never been so widely available. Bringing us news we not able to obtain as easily in the past.
We have tracks where it seems your in the air more then you are on the ground.
There are a ton of reasons why there seems to be more injuries.
I think the 450 plays a miniscule role in this. I feel much safer on my 450 then I do my 250f , and there is no comparison what so ever with how safe I feel compared to my 98 kx 250.

I did enjoy reading your post, just don't really agree that the displacement is the culprit.
You can ride a 450 in the power range as a larger rider (6'0 195 lbs) much safer then you can a worked 250f wide open, where there is a much smaller window of power to clear obstacles etc. IMO

RandyS
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9/22/2008 4:39pm Edited Date/Time 9/22/2008 4:43pm
I wouldn't say they are "too" powerful, I mean in my day, men rode 500cc two strokes!! Are telling the 450 is more powerful than a...
I wouldn't say they are "too" powerful, I mean in my day, men rode 500cc two strokes!! Are telling the 450 is more powerful than a 500cc 2 smoke? Just a thought...



Anyhow, to add a little to that statement, the bikes(450 and 250F) have advanced so much in handling and the power delivery of the thumper is so good(traction), that the track builder have had to build tracks to be more challenging!! The obstacles have gotten bigger, farther apart. If you put these bikes on the old tracks of say even 5 years ago, they would jump a whole section in one leap!! A 450 is way easier to ride than a 500cc 2 stroke, you never saw a novice ride a 500 in the day, but now, even beginners ride 450s!! Any pro can definitely handle the 450, by the time you get to even local pro, you know how to ride!! Just my take, please discuss farther.
500s were scary fast, there was no relaxing, and they weren't real easy to keep going in a straight line. They were too much for any beginner to attempt to do anything more than lug it around. Any beginner can ride a 450 fast enough to be in over their heads.

Very few if any pro is riding a 450 at 100% of it's potential. Maybe RC.

Jabjr222
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9/22/2008 4:40pm
I wouldn't say they are "too" powerful, I mean in my day, men rode 500cc two strokes!! Are telling the 450 is more powerful than a...
I wouldn't say they are "too" powerful, I mean in my day, men rode 500cc two strokes!! Are telling the 450 is more powerful than a 500cc 2 smoke? Just a thought...



Anyhow, to add a little to that statement, the bikes(450 and 250F) have advanced so much in handling and the power delivery of the thumper is so good(traction), that the track builder have had to build tracks to be more challenging!! The obstacles have gotten bigger, farther apart. If you put these bikes on the old tracks of say even 5 years ago, they would jump a whole section in one leap!! A 450 is way easier to ride than a 500cc 2 stroke, you never saw a novice ride a 500 in the day, but now, even beginners ride 450s!! Any pro can definitely handle the 450, by the time you get to even local pro, you know how to ride!! Just my take, please discuss farther.
How does the HP match between the 450s and the old, OLD 500 2 smokers? I think this might be bullshit but I have been wrong before.
CeeDub
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9/22/2008 4:41pm
Definetly getting a little outta hand powerwise.........They have made everyone faster from pros to amatuers and able to jump more stuff.The tracks have gotten increasingly more difficult as well to accomadate the faster riders.I have been around this sport for 30 years and the amount of serious injuries in the last 4-5 years is getting ridiculus.
Tiki
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9/22/2008 4:46pm
I love these threads. They come up annually.

For the smart guys out there: 1000 bikes go over the same track with the same bumps with the same bikes. One person gets seriously injured, and this is the bikes fault?

HOW?
CeeDub
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9/22/2008 4:51pm
The problem is the amount of serious life changing injuries not just broken collarbones and wrists.
Tiki
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9/22/2008 4:54pm
CeeDub wrote:
The problem is the amount of serious life changing injuries not just broken collarbones and wrists.
No its not. Same injuries have been happening LONG before the internet. More injuries in High School sports.

Tell me how its the bikes fault?
flarider
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9/22/2008 5:00pm
Tiki wrote:
I love these threads. They come up annually. For the smart guys out there: 1000 bikes go over the same track with the same bumps with...
I love these threads. They come up annually.

For the smart guys out there: 1000 bikes go over the same track with the same bumps with the same bikes. One person gets seriously injured, and this is the bikes fault?

HOW?
1000 bikes a year over 10 yrs

10 years ago, there were zero deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
9 years ago, there were zero deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
8 years ago, there were zero deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
7 years ago, there were zero deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
6 years ago, there were zero deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
5 years ago, there were zero deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
4 years ago, there was one death or life altering injuries such as paralysis
3 years ago, there was two deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
2 years ago, there was two deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
1 year ago, there was three deaths or life altering injuries such as paralysis
Jabjr222
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9/22/2008 5:03pm
Tiki wrote:
No its not. Same injuries have been happening LONG before the internet. More injuries in High School sports.

Tell me how its the bikes fault?
Moto is a dangerous sport and every rider knows the risk when they throw a leg over a bike. They know the risk as they dive into the first corner or jump that triple... It sucks but you can't blame the bike (or neck braces).
9/22/2008 5:04pm Edited Date/Time 9/22/2008 5:06pm
Jabjr222 wrote:
How does the HP match between the 450s and the old, OLD 500 2 smokers? I think this might be bullshit but I have been wrong...
How does the HP match between the 450s and the old, OLD 500 2 smokers? I think this might be bullshit but I have been wrong before.
It is the power delivery, like I said, you would hardly see a beginner even contemplate riding a 500cc bike, yet you can see lots riding 450s!! By ride, I mean ride, not putt around!!

Yes, I agree with the gentleman that said it is easier to ride a250F way over one's head than a 450, there is enough available power to clear anything form just a blip of the throttle!!
vet954
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9/22/2008 5:05pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 8:32pm
The problem is the tracks not the bikes. Keep the amature motocross tracks natural terrain only. NO MAN MADE SHIT.

I have yet to read about a rider getting seriously hurt pinning it up a rutted 400 foot uphill or choosing between 9 berms in a corner.

Supercross has hurt USA motocross in more than words can say.

And since I only ride on 40' wide natural terrain sand tracks without a single man made jump I am getting a big bore kit and some porting for my 450. Too much power.....my ass.

Too much supercross/man made shit is the problem.
9/22/2008 5:07pm
i do not think they are too powerfull. dont grab too much throttle and it wont be a problem. the people that say james cant even ride a 450 to its full potential are full of it. why else would they do soo much motor work and add ons and parts that arent available to the joe schmoe racer? what about riders that weigh 200+ lbs?
9/22/2008 5:08pm
1000cc sportbikes available to anyone with decent credit is too much power.
Tiki
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9/22/2008 5:12pm
Dave you are so full of shit. No one ever got paralyzed on a motorcycle EVER on a MX track? UM I got some news for you. You and I both know someone. I know three people that are suffering from MX related paralyzed injuries, on was in 84 another in 91 and another in 95 Where was the 450 then? OH and they weren't large bore bikes.

HOW ABOUT THIS? The Rider is at fault for riding beyond their own limits. In other words they ran out of talent bad shit happend and reared its ugly head. It sucks.

How many racers show up for Loretta Lynns? How many motos? How many came away paralyzed? Mammoth MX, NMA, Oak Hill. All the other small local places that have practice every single weekend or races.

The argument isn't the bikes are too powerful, the argument is: How do we take away something because we feel we know better. Isn't that correct?

As long as someone has made something to go hog wild on, someone will and exceed the limitations of that thing. Do we outlaw Football, hockey, mountain bikes, skiing, snowboarding, rollerblading, walking on ice, driving cars, getting in the bathtub?

How is it the bikes fault?
brent26wood
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9/22/2008 5:18pm
CeeDub wrote:
The problem is the amount of serious life changing injuries not just broken collarbones and wrists.
Tiki wrote:
No its not. Same injuries have been happening LONG before the internet. More injuries in High School sports.

Tell me how its the bikes fault?
I know everyone likes to compare high school sports to MX injuries, but I'm calling bullshit. I would wager there are more injuries per capita in MX than stick and ball sports.
500guy
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9/22/2008 5:30pm
350's done deal .

seriously I don't think it's the power, I think it's a combination of more agressive tracks and riders.

plenty of people break themself up on 250F's and mini bikes.
flarider
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9/22/2008 5:30pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 8:32pm
Tiki wrote:
Dave you are so full of shit. No one ever got paralyzed on a motorcycle EVER on a MX track? UM I got some news for...
Dave you are so full of shit. No one ever got paralyzed on a motorcycle EVER on a MX track? UM I got some news for you. You and I both know someone. I know three people that are suffering from MX related paralyzed injuries, on was in 84 another in 91 and another in 95 Where was the 450 then? OH and they weren't large bore bikes.

HOW ABOUT THIS? The Rider is at fault for riding beyond their own limits. In other words they ran out of talent bad shit happend and reared its ugly head. It sucks.

How many racers show up for Loretta Lynns? How many motos? How many came away paralyzed? Mammoth MX, NMA, Oak Hill. All the other small local places that have practice every single weekend or races.

The argument isn't the bikes are too powerful, the argument is: How do we take away something because we feel we know better. Isn't that correct?

As long as someone has made something to go hog wild on, someone will and exceed the limitations of that thing. Do we outlaw Football, hockey, mountain bikes, skiing, snowboarding, rollerblading, walking on ice, driving cars, getting in the bathtub?

How is it the bikes fault?
It's not that no one ever got seriously injured, it's that the rate of incidence has increased.


You mentioned Loretta Lynn's, in all of the years that race has been there, essentially the same track, same number of riders, same layout, no deaths or paralyzing incidents...but this year they had a death.
SPYGUY
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9/22/2008 5:57pm
It is the TRACKS that are more dangerous now.

When you add more and more "do or die" type jumps into tracks, guess what happens when someone doesn't make it?


Larry
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9/22/2008 6:03pm
The 450's are no more dangerous than the high performance 50's that we put 4 -6 year olds on.
MX has become the most dangerous main stream sport out there. If we don't fix it ourselves someone else will fix it for us. Probably not to our liking.
9/22/2008 6:03pm
out of all the times i have been hurt this far i would say its been something dumb i did or i was tired and pushing to hard, i ride a 450 and have no issues with the power. I think ur right about power to the extent it is allowing some people to attempt some of this made made stuff. At a local track in Mi called Baja Mx they have a uphill about 25-30ft tall with a set of rockers about 100ft away after you hit the top. People are starting to triple into them which i hear is about 140ft i can bet somebody goes down hard real soon cuz to double in im pretty sure im about 4th on the gas
rocrac
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9/22/2008 6:13pm
out of all the times i have been hurt this far i would say its been something dumb i did or i was tired and pushing...
out of all the times i have been hurt this far i would say its been something dumb i did or i was tired and pushing to hard, i ride a 450 and have no issues with the power. I think ur right about power to the extent it is allowing some people to attempt some of this made made stuff. At a local track in Mi called Baja Mx they have a uphill about 25-30ft tall with a set of rockers about 100ft away after you hit the top. People are starting to triple into them which i hear is about 140ft i can bet somebody goes down hard real soon cuz to double in im pretty sure im about 4th on the gas
I saw guys doing that 2 years ago at the regional they had there....crazy. Of course the meatwagon was busy all weekend.
The_PU300
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9/22/2008 6:17pm
I think we should take a page out of moto GP and base the rules on overall performance then adjust the displacement as technology advances.... racing is still doing it's job for the industry by developing higher horspower smaller light-weight engines in more responsive and forgiving chasis.

This is an old argument but still valid.

You would hesitate to let a 16 year old drive a Ferrari right? It's the same with dirt and street... the bikes are better and MUCH easier to ride than they ever have been. There in lies the problem... johnny dumb-ass with a slight twist of the throttle can get into a world of shit in a hurry.

You can't tell me that the KX450 of OLD could get you into the same situation as the KX450F. You had to be a helluva rider to even go in a straight line for 20 feet much less pick up significant speed.

It sucks to hear about Blair getting hurt... but professional racing injuries haven't gone up significantly IMO.



Tiki
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9/22/2008 6:22pm
flarider wrote:
It's not that no one ever got seriously injured, it's that the rate of incidence has increased. You mentioned Loretta Lynn's, in all of the years...
It's not that no one ever got seriously injured, it's that the rate of incidence has increased.


You mentioned Loretta Lynn's, in all of the years that race has been there, essentially the same track, same number of riders, same layout, no deaths or paralyzing incidents...but this year they had a death.
I will always agree that any injury is too much. If the AMA and other local racing events feel the displacement/horsepower is too much, Let it be up to them to enforce rules where they feel safety is. If the AMA organization as a whole felt the bikes shouldn't be raced, I'm sure it would catch on across the states. Be warned, dabbling in that arena is a slippery slope, dictating something like that is a huge can of worms that will attract unwanted attention to the sport. But if then the bikes were not allowed, those that want them could buy them.

You cant control stupid people. They are gonna do what they are gonna do. At least we get to hear their war cry.

"Heyyall! Check this out!"
drmarkr
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9/22/2008 6:24pm
Tiki wrote:
Dave you are so full of shit. No one ever got paralyzed on a motorcycle EVER on a MX track? UM I got some news for...
Dave you are so full of shit. No one ever got paralyzed on a motorcycle EVER on a MX track? UM I got some news for you. You and I both know someone. I know three people that are suffering from MX related paralyzed injuries, on was in 84 another in 91 and another in 95 Where was the 450 then? OH and they weren't large bore bikes.

HOW ABOUT THIS? The Rider is at fault for riding beyond their own limits. In other words they ran out of talent bad shit happend and reared its ugly head. It sucks.

How many racers show up for Loretta Lynns? How many motos? How many came away paralyzed? Mammoth MX, NMA, Oak Hill. All the other small local places that have practice every single weekend or races.

The argument isn't the bikes are too powerful, the argument is: How do we take away something because we feel we know better. Isn't that correct?

As long as someone has made something to go hog wild on, someone will and exceed the limitations of that thing. Do we outlaw Football, hockey, mountain bikes, skiing, snowboarding, rollerblading, walking on ice, driving cars, getting in the bathtub?

How is it the bikes fault?
flarider wrote:
It's not that no one ever got seriously injured, it's that the rate of incidence has increased. You mentioned Loretta Lynn's, in all of the years...
It's not that no one ever got seriously injured, it's that the rate of incidence has increased.


You mentioned Loretta Lynn's, in all of the years that race has been there, essentially the same track, same number of riders, same layout, no deaths or paralyzing incidents...but this year they had a death.
That was caused by him being on a 450?

Didn't sound like it from the description I heard, but I could be wrong....

BTW, I don't think this has anything to do with the bike's engine size. Almost every pro engine is making several more ponies than stock, albeit via a wider, more usable powerband.



MR
Devil1nNj
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9/22/2008 6:28pm
It looks like a lot of us are in agreement that MX tracks are far too "man made". Probably better suited for a different post topic. It also seems that the bikes have come so far, and are so well built for their intended purpose, a lot of riders are now hitting jumps that only a select few would attempt 10 years ago. How can you compete in a race where guys are hitting a 140ft triple (Hondamx454), and your not??? You can't, and with that kind of an obstacle the risk factor for a major injury is much higher, then say, high siding a really rutted down hill off camber...

I love natural terrain. I sustained a life altering injury on a very routine and small triple, but, I still think tracks have too many man made obstacles. Maybe I was just born in the wrong decade. haha I love the vintage pics, and vids of the natural terrain tracks from back in the day. Cool

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