factory teams running throttle return cables?

lostboy819 3/6/2014 9:29pm
3/6/2014 9:29pm
lostboy819 wrote:
This is a must have book for anyone who does any tuning, even the sudco catalog has a huge amount of information on all the styles...
This is a must have book for anyone who does any tuning, even the sudco catalog has a huge amount of information on all the styles of carbs

http://www.sudco.com/Carburetor01.html

http://www.amazon.com/SUDCO-MIKUNI-TUNING-MANUAL-002-999/dp/B0055DM1EK

The Rock wrote:
SUDCO's phone support is excellent.
I agree,the whole company is 1st class and the knowledge those guys have is incredible. They have helped us when we would swap out snowmobile carbs and put TMXs on and they would give us jetting specs that were so close it was scary.
Underground 3/6/2014 9:30pm
3/6/2014 9:30pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Fire the bike up and see if there is any difference with the pull cable disconnected , I bet that 2 stroke snap that you had...
Fire the bike up and see if there is any difference with the pull cable disconnected , I bet that 2 stroke snap that you had with the bike not running is now gone. You are correct that it could become a safety issue if you ride with it disconnected as it is there for a reason.
velocitygear wrote:
Thanks Silver753 and lostboy, that's something I hadn't tried. So, that brings us back to those that run only one cable. You don't think a single...
Thanks Silver753 and lostboy, that's something I hadn't tried. So, that brings us back to those that run only one cable. You don't think a single cable has enough force to overcome the incoming air flow?

My throttle, without the return cable, "snaps" back, With the cable, not even close. Nothing wrong with the cables...

How many here run only 1 cable? Please post?

I just want to hear of a person, who's tried the single cable and HAD a problem...
Your cables aren't adjusted correctly. Make sure you have plenty of slack in the return cable. Having very little free play in the pull cable will give you better so called response than when you have a lot of free play in the pull cable which some prefer and some don't. Get your cables set right and you will have snap. If the bike has a few years on it try replacing them also as the inner teflon liner does wear. Same goes with clutch cable. I always replace my clutch cables at 6 months and you will feel a difference. Spraying a WD solution only makes them drag and fill with dust.
mauimotox99
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mauimotox99 3/6/2014 9:30pm
3/6/2014 9:30pm
ive been running my 05crf250r without the return cable since 06 and haven't ever had a problem, i also use a ballbearing throttle tube and its like butter. like velocity said it'd be nice to hear if anyone has had a stuck throttle with 1 cable but ive never heard of it and I know alot of guys that dont run the return, im not the only one. but if i ever do I got my handy kill switch to save me lol.

btw ive seen my friends 05kx125 2stroke so single cable start up WFO! and stuck throttle, the bike didnt have a kill switch either. my friends first reaction was put it in 5thgear and pop the clutch to hopefully stall the bike, well it didn't stall or seize luckily i was able to pop the spark plug wire but man that was freakin scary. the problem was a small clip was missing and the cables connection got cought on the edge of the carb where its supposed to stay in.
lostboy819 3/6/2014 9:41pm
3/6/2014 9:41pm
I have never had a 4 stroke throttle stick but I have had a couple 2 strokes do it. One was the YZ250s and Yamaha had a update to a new throttle wheel in the throttle housing to fix it the other was a CR that I had scraped the needle on the body of the carb when I was jetting at the track and when the needle would vibrate and turn just right it was stick at 3/4 throttle, that one cause a nice expensive crash.Blush

The Shop

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velocitygear
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velocitygear 3/6/2014 9:49pm
3/6/2014 9:49pm
velocitygear wrote:
Thanks Silver753 and lostboy, that's something I hadn't tried. So, that brings us back to those that run only one cable. You don't think a single...
Thanks Silver753 and lostboy, that's something I hadn't tried. So, that brings us back to those that run only one cable. You don't think a single cable has enough force to overcome the incoming air flow?

My throttle, without the return cable, "snaps" back, With the cable, not even close. Nothing wrong with the cables...

How many here run only 1 cable? Please post?

I just want to hear of a person, who's tried the single cable and HAD a problem...
BobPA wrote:
There is something wrong with your cables..... I tried this on my 350 tonight and there was absolutely no difference in ease of opening or difference...
There is something wrong with your cables.....

I tried this on my 350 tonight and there was absolutely no difference in ease of opening or difference in "snapping" shut.

Route your throttle cables and lube them correctly, running one cable is pointless.

I would also like to see real world proof of intake flow holding the throttle plate open, sounds like some solid vital theory to me.
I'll have to swap them out to be sure. I always run a tight pull cable and never oil my cables. Changing them is probably a good idea. But if the slow return persists, I'm ditching the return cable. I'll be a vital guinea pig...
velocitygear
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velocitygear 3/6/2014 9:50pm
3/6/2014 9:50pm
mauimotox99 wrote:
ive been running my 05crf250r without the return cable since 06 and haven't ever had a problem, i also use a ballbearing throttle tube and its...
ive been running my 05crf250r without the return cable since 06 and haven't ever had a problem, i also use a ballbearing throttle tube and its like butter. like velocity said it'd be nice to hear if anyone has had a stuck throttle with 1 cable but ive never heard of it and I know alot of guys that dont run the return, im not the only one. but if i ever do I got my handy kill switch to save me lol.

btw ive seen my friends 05kx125 2stroke so single cable start up WFO! and stuck throttle, the bike didnt have a kill switch either. my friends first reaction was put it in 5thgear and pop the clutch to hopefully stall the bike, well it didn't stall or seize luckily i was able to pop the spark plug wire but man that was freakin scary. the problem was a small clip was missing and the cables connection got cought on the edge of the carb where its supposed to stay in.
Thanks for posting...
Mr. G
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Mr. G 3/6/2014 10:09pm
3/6/2014 10:09pm
My XR650R has one and I always thought it was weird. But what the hell do I know I am a fire sprinkler contractor.Smile
pecu_83
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pecu_83 3/6/2014 11:12pm
3/6/2014 11:12pm
My brother and a few finnish national level riders ride without the return cable. I´ve ridden my brothers bike and the throttle is noticeably lighter than the stock. He´s never had a problem with it.
lostboy819 3/6/2014 11:15pm
3/6/2014 11:15pm Edited Date/Time 3/6/2014 11:17pm
Mr. G wrote:
My XR650R has one and I always thought it was weird. But what the hell do I know I am a fire sprinkler contractor.Smile
Fire sprinklers are over rated,mine haven't been hooked up to a water supply for years and I haven't had a problem.Besides they just get everything wet if there's a fire.
Bigshow
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Bigshow 3/7/2014 1:20am
3/7/2014 1:20am
I know I will pay for this one. The Honda TRX450R COUCH (carbed) does not have a return cable, and I have not seen one on other 4 stroke couch's (carbed or injected).
Mr. G
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Mr. G 3/7/2014 2:16am
3/7/2014 2:16am
Mr. G wrote:
My XR650R has one and I always thought it was weird. But what the hell do I know I am a fire sprinkler contractor.Smile
lostboy819 wrote:
Fire sprinklers are over rated,mine haven't been hooked up to a water supply for years and I haven't had a problem.Besides they just get everything wet...
Fire sprinklers are over rated,mine haven't been hooked up to a water supply for years and I haven't had a problem.Besides they just get everything wet if there's a fire.
That is so true. Sometimes I tell people that if there is a fire in their building the only people that are going to die are the ones that can't swim.Smile To all of the sensitive folks I apologize for using the word "die" . Can't be too careful these days.
Robgvx
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Robgvx 3/7/2014 2:56am
3/7/2014 2:56am
lostboy819 wrote:
I have never heard of a throttle stuck open from intake flow but you can get slide floating, but that is more just a lag in...
I have never heard of a throttle stuck open from intake flow but you can get slide floating, but that is more just a lag in throttle response when deceleration but with a return cable its a non issue. Now I have seen people who have cut coils out of their carb spring on 2 strokes to get a lighter feel and when they bottomed out hard the slide would bounce up and take them for a real short unexpected ride. Wink
I had a crap mechanic once called Mick Aldous, who decided to cut several coils off my CR500 throttle spring in the misinformed belief that it would make the throttle lighter. All that does is remove the spring pre-load, and if you cut enough off (as he had done) then effectively it means that the slide isn't spring-loaded at all at the bottom of it's travel. So it just bounces.

From what I understand if you cut the spring, and then stretch the spring back out to its original length you effectively end up with a heavier spring I believe. (Less coils in the same length means the spring wire has to move/bend further for the same pull length = heavier rate*). To get a lighter spring you grind the outside of the spring to reduce the wire thickness instead.

(*Please feel free to correct me on that point if that's not exactly true).

Anyway, what I do know is that the throttle partly stuck open into corners and over jumps every time I went out on the track as the slide (with no pre-load on the spring) bounced. Of course, the dumbass mechanic had done this off his own back, without telling me, and so I wasted an entire Saturday at a GP trying to figure out why the throttle was sticking and I was nearly killing myself into every turn.

Twat.
CamP
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CamP 3/7/2014 4:45am
3/7/2014 4:45am
lostboy819 wrote:
I have never had a 4 stroke throttle stick but I have had a couple 2 strokes do it. One was the YZ250s and Yamaha had...
I have never had a 4 stroke throttle stick but I have had a couple 2 strokes do it. One was the YZ250s and Yamaha had a update to a new throttle wheel in the throttle housing to fix it the other was a CR that I had scraped the needle on the body of the carb when I was jetting at the track and when the needle would vibrate and turn just right it was stick at 3/4 throttle, that one cause a nice expensive crash.Blush
A buddy of mine had the throttle stick on a brand new YZ250 that hadn't gotten the updated throttle recall. He ended up with a broken femur. He said it's it's a weird feeling looking over and seeing your foot laying next to your ear.
mauimotox99
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mauimotox99 3/7/2014 5:32am
3/7/2014 5:32am
maybe its the 2strokes that need throttle return cables lol
usp4u
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usp4u 3/7/2014 5:36am
3/7/2014 5:36am
Bigshow wrote:
I know I will pay for this one. The Honda TRX450R COUCH (carbed) does not have a return cable, and I have not seen one on...
I know I will pay for this one. The Honda TRX450R COUCH (carbed) does not have a return cable, and I have not seen one on other 4 stroke couch's (carbed or injected).
The quads don't have a return because of the wire harness that runs into the housing. There is a micro switch in there. If the throttle is let off, the lever depresses the switch and cut ignition timing wayyyyyy back, thus slowing the machine.
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usp4u 3/7/2014 5:40am
3/7/2014 5:40am Edited Date/Time 3/7/2014 5:40am
While not really a big concern with a 2T or even a 250F, the 450's do in fact move enough air that UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS it is POSSIBLE for the slide to "surf" the air flow through the carb, thus causing a WFO condition. The return cable exists because no one wants a throttle spring/pull that is super heavy.
lostboy819 3/7/2014 1:15pm
3/7/2014 1:15pm
lostboy819 wrote:
I have never heard of a throttle stuck open from intake flow but you can get slide floating, but that is more just a lag in...
I have never heard of a throttle stuck open from intake flow but you can get slide floating, but that is more just a lag in throttle response when deceleration but with a return cable its a non issue. Now I have seen people who have cut coils out of their carb spring on 2 strokes to get a lighter feel and when they bottomed out hard the slide would bounce up and take them for a real short unexpected ride. Wink
Robgvx wrote:
I had a crap mechanic once called Mick Aldous, who decided to cut several coils off my CR500 throttle spring in the misinformed belief that it...
I had a crap mechanic once called Mick Aldous, who decided to cut several coils off my CR500 throttle spring in the misinformed belief that it would make the throttle lighter. All that does is remove the spring pre-load, and if you cut enough off (as he had done) then effectively it means that the slide isn't spring-loaded at all at the bottom of it's travel. So it just bounces.

From what I understand if you cut the spring, and then stretch the spring back out to its original length you effectively end up with a heavier spring I believe. (Less coils in the same length means the spring wire has to move/bend further for the same pull length = heavier rate*). To get a lighter spring you grind the outside of the spring to reduce the wire thickness instead.

(*Please feel free to correct me on that point if that's not exactly true).

Anyway, what I do know is that the throttle partly stuck open into corners and over jumps every time I went out on the track as the slide (with no pre-load on the spring) bounced. Of course, the dumbass mechanic had done this off his own back, without telling me, and so I wasted an entire Saturday at a GP trying to figure out why the throttle was sticking and I was nearly killing myself into every turn.

Twat.
LOL I forgot about that and you are correct about the spring, after they cut it they had to stretch it and then it was harder to turn than stock.
mx317
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mx317 3/7/2014 1:26pm
3/7/2014 1:26pm
usp4u wrote:
While not really a big concern with a 2T or even a 250F, the 450's do in fact move enough air that UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS...
While not really a big concern with a 2T or even a 250F, the 450's do in fact move enough air that UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS it is POSSIBLE for the slide to "surf" the air flow through the carb, thus causing a WFO condition. The return cable exists because no one wants a throttle spring/pull that is super heavy.
This is why, good answer.

Pit Row

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mx317
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mx317 3/7/2014 1:30pm
3/7/2014 1:30pm
chillrich wrote:
They might be there but they aren't connected.
Why would they have a "fake" one? There are no rules that say they have to have one.
markit
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markit 3/7/2014 1:35pm
3/7/2014 1:35pm
I disconnected mine on my 03 450exc and all my 4Ts after and never had any problems. It was well known back then that the factory guys had to have the stock two cable set up but they removed the rt cable from the housing, don't dog me it's just what i know. I think the return cable was a EPA requierment, may be wrong on that been a while nce i ran 4Ts.
lostboy819 3/7/2014 1:47pm
3/7/2014 1:47pm Edited Date/Time 3/7/2014 1:51pm
markit wrote:
I disconnected mine on my 03 450exc and all my 4Ts after and never had any problems. It was well known back then that the factory...
I disconnected mine on my 03 450exc and all my 4Ts after and never had any problems. It was well known back then that the factory guys had to have the stock two cable set up but they removed the rt cable from the housing, don't dog me it's just what i know. I think the return cable was a EPA requierment, may be wrong on that been a while nce i ran 4Ts.
Why in the world would the Environmental Protection Agency have anything to do with a throttle return cable ? Unless its has to do with emissions I have no idea how they could be involved, maybe you are thinking of a different government agency.I don't know but there could be a safety standard that requires it.
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The Rock 3/7/2014 2:01pm
3/7/2014 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 3/7/2014 2:01pm
CamP wrote:
A buddy of mine had the throttle stick on a brand new YZ250 that hadn't gotten the updated throttle recall. He ended up with a broken...
A buddy of mine had the throttle stick on a brand new YZ250 that hadn't gotten the updated throttle recall. He ended up with a broken femur. He said it's it's a weird feeling looking over and seeing your foot laying next to your ear.
Mike Craig unfortunately experienced the foot by head deal at Budds Creek back in 98 on the #13 HoT CR250.

mauimotox99-Do you do single track or MX?
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FLmxer 3/7/2014 2:59pm
3/7/2014 2:59pm
I heard Josh Strange, I think it was him, who ever won in GNCC the first round recently said they had a 4th gear pinned get off and it broke their throttle cable and still won the race. I thought maybe he meant clutch lever or something but I guess it was his return maybe?
Bigshow
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Bigshow 3/7/2014 3:41pm
3/7/2014 3:41pm Edited Date/Time 3/7/2014 3:45pm
Bigshow wrote:
I know I will pay for this one. The Honda TRX450R COUCH (carbed) does not have a return cable, and I have not seen one on...
I know I will pay for this one. The Honda TRX450R COUCH (carbed) does not have a return cable, and I have not seen one on other 4 stroke couch's (carbed or injected).
usp4u wrote:
The quads don't have a return because of the wire harness that runs into the housing. There is a micro switch in there. If the throttle...
The quads don't have a return because of the wire harness that runs into the housing. There is a micro switch in there. If the throttle is let off, the lever depresses the switch and cut ignition timing wayyyyyy back, thus slowing the machine.
Did not know that about stock couch's. Unless you are talking about the TPS? Thanks.
I know my race couch does not have that as I have a dirt bike 40mm FCR carb on my couch, Honda engine in Suzuki chassis. The carb has the place for the return cable. I just plugged the hole in the carb housing. I have no problems with the throttle sticking and no wires hooked to carb Other than TPS. Which my dirt bike carb had also.
velocitygear
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velocitygear 3/7/2014 4:21pm
3/7/2014 4:21pm
Underground wrote:
Your cables aren't adjusted correctly. Make sure you have plenty of slack in the return cable. Having very little free play in the pull cable will...
Your cables aren't adjusted correctly. Make sure you have plenty of slack in the return cable. Having very little free play in the pull cable will give you better so called response than when you have a lot of free play in the pull cable which some prefer and some don't. Get your cables set right and you will have snap. If the bike has a few years on it try replacing them also as the inner teflon liner does wear. Same goes with clutch cable. I always replace my clutch cables at 6 months and you will feel a difference. Spraying a WD solution only makes them drag and fill with dust.
Thanks for posting.. Cables are adjusted properly but they very well could use replacement. Just received a new 08 APE head with stainless, so I'll be getting into this in a few days. I'll post the results for others...
bullpen658
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bullpen658 3/7/2014 4:53pm
3/7/2014 4:53pm
Rumor has it that the top teams are no longer using brake cables either. I mean, they're in photos but they're empty to save weight and reduce arm pump.
velocitygear
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velocitygear 3/7/2014 5:26pm
3/7/2014 5:26pm
bullpen658 wrote:
Rumor has it that the top teams are no longer using brake cables either. I mean, they're in photos but they're empty to save weight and...
Rumor has it that the top teams are no longer using brake cables either. I mean, they're in photos but they're empty to save weight and reduce arm pump.
That would be correct, probably since 1985? They're called hoses, as they use brake fluid, instead of cables Smile
mauimotox99
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mauimotox99 3/7/2014 5:31pm
3/7/2014 5:31pm
markit wrote:
I disconnected mine on my 03 450exc and all my 4Ts after and never had any problems. It was well known back then that the factory...
I disconnected mine on my 03 450exc and all my 4Ts after and never had any problems. It was well known back then that the factory guys had to have the stock two cable set up but they removed the rt cable from the housing, don't dog me it's just what i know. I think the return cable was a EPA requierment, may be wrong on that been a while nce i ran 4Ts.
I knew it! lol I remeber'd seeing a privateers crf250 in sx with 1 cable way back in 07 or 08, thats what got me thinking about it more. my shop mechanic took his rt cable off his crf250 also at the time, he said the spring is strong enough.

the rock, I used to race mx from 99-2009 but since I herniated my L5-s1 disc in lower back ive just been riding trails, I hear the track/racing community has gone downhill since that time, its such an expensive sport over here now. im seeing more 2strokes around which is cool.
bullpen658
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bullpen658 3/7/2014 5:31pm
3/7/2014 5:31pm
bullpen658 wrote:
Rumor has it that the top teams are no longer using brake cables either. I mean, they're in photos but they're empty to save weight and...
Rumor has it that the top teams are no longer using brake cables either. I mean, they're in photos but they're empty to save weight and reduce arm pump.
velocitygear wrote:
That would be correct, probably since 1985? They're called hoses, as they use brake fluid, instead of cables Smile
I'm NEVER wrong bro.
mauimotox99
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mauimotox99 3/7/2014 5:32pm
3/7/2014 5:32pm
bullpen658 wrote:
Rumor has it that the top teams are no longer using brake cables either. I mean, they're in photos but they're empty to save weight and...
Rumor has it that the top teams are no longer using brake cables either. I mean, they're in photos but they're empty to save weight and reduce arm pump.
velocitygear wrote:
That would be correct, probably since 1985? They're called hoses, as they use brake fluid, instead of cables Smile
Laughing

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