250 vs 250...... Dear DC

dazzlindino 10/11/2013 1:20pm
10/11/2013 1:20pm
GuyB wrote:
Fortunately, it's not run by donkeys on motocross forums. And that includes this one.
dazzlindino wrote:
I am not a donkey....even tho I resemble that remark....haha.....
GuyB wrote:
Well, click click couldn't stick to trying to present his posts without unnecessary name-calling. That's why he got the bang bang of a timeout.
agreed...the name calling...is uncalled for..no doubt...
Jakes Dad
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Jakes Dad 10/11/2013 1:28pm
10/11/2013 1:28pm
Torque is what moves the object, let's take a look at it this way and discuss.
Follow the torque curves of both motors.
DC
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DC 10/11/2013 1:33pm
10/11/2013 1:33pm
Thanks Guy B. Sorry for ruining a perfectly good Friday afternoon...

DC
MX Sports
dazzlindino 10/11/2013 1:35pm
10/11/2013 1:35pm
DC wrote:
Thanks Guy B. Sorry for ruining a perfectly good Friday afternoon...

DC
MX Sports
DC...thanks for all your efforts!

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OW38B
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OW38B 10/11/2013 1:38pm
10/11/2013 1:38pm
Jakes Dad wrote:
Torque is what moves the object, let's take a look at it this way and discuss.
Follow the torque curves of both motors.
I think I know what direction you are going with this...........but I think it is the wrong road.
35smom
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35smom 10/11/2013 1:39pm
10/11/2013 1:39pm
Krazyk2774 wrote:
I would like to see the money taken out of the picture, make everybody ride a stock bike . maybe some suspension work, then you would...
I would like to see the money taken out of the picture, make everybody ride a stock bike . maybe some suspension work, then you would see who the fastest rider truly is. its never going to happen , but it would be interesting
That was my sons 450 when he switched from the 250 starting at Southwick (just suspension at Southwick then added a pipe for the next few rounds). He can break the top 20 against factory bikes. That says something!
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Denn700 10/11/2013 1:41pm
10/11/2013 1:41pm
At Swan last weekend (Texas Pro Challenge) it was the first year they allowed 250 two strokes in the 250 class. I thought for 5 seconds they were an advantage when a guy trippled through the rythem section on a 250 two stroke but then I noticed all the top guys on 250f's were doing it too. The top 3 guys were all on 250F's. There was a guy on a KTM 250SX that was
running in the top 5 but he lost a couple of spots the last few laps. I dont know if the bike made him tired or if it was just him. There was a lot of two strokes out there and the bikes were evenly matched. Anyone who has been to Swan knows how fast that track is. If it works every where else then why wouldnt it work for the pro nationals?
35smom
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35smom 10/11/2013 1:42pm
10/11/2013 1:42pm Edited Date/Time 10/11/2013 1:42pm
DC wrote:
Thanks Guy B. Sorry for ruining a perfectly good Friday afternoon...

DC
MX Sports
Thanks Davey for trying your best to get it done. Its a start. Maybe with more testing and possibly a different way to approach the HP vs. HP issue it could change.
Looks like my son will be one of the riders battling the 450s with his 250 2 stroke for 2014. Smile
GuyB
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GuyB 10/11/2013 1:53pm
10/11/2013 1:53pm
DC wrote:
Thanks Guy B. Sorry for ruining a perfectly good Friday afternoon...

DC
MX Sports
Ruining? Hardly. It takes way more than that to ruin an afternoon for me. Smile
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DrSweden 10/11/2013 1:54pm
10/11/2013 1:54pm
One question still remains though, while being stroked the wrong way so to speak, would they all (meaning those not selling any smokers) actually pull out from the biggest market forum they have? They say they would and It's not my risk to take, but I have a feeling they would be forced to play along and maybe adapt at some point...

I think in decline which seems to be the repeated theme in our sport, doing new things should be they way to go rather than stay put and wait...

Watching the EMX races in Europe, and the recent DEP two stroke challenge made me feel uncomfy about what we are missing out in the premier series. It's plain stupid that we can't make a synergy with two good things.

Still, I have a feeling tides are changing, meanwhile both series is lacking what the other one brings.

But again, I'm not taking any risks, so I guess whatever...
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seth505 10/11/2013 2:09pm
10/11/2013 2:09pm
35smom wrote:
Thanks Davey for trying your best to get it done. Its a start. Maybe with more testing and possibly a different way to approach the HP...
Thanks Davey for trying your best to get it done. Its a start. Maybe with more testing and possibly a different way to approach the HP vs. HP issue it could change.
Looks like my son will be one of the riders battling the 450s with his 250 2 stroke for 2014. Smile
hell yes! 250sx FTW Smile
TNL830
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TNL830 10/11/2013 2:23pm
10/11/2013 2:23pm
Wouldn't be easier to just have a HP limit in the 250f class? After every race the top 5 get impounded and choose 2-3 random bikes and test them if they are over the HP limit then they are DQ.
newmann
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newmann 10/11/2013 2:24pm
10/11/2013 2:24pm
DrSweden wrote:
One question still remains though, while being stroked the wrong way so to speak, would they all (meaning those not selling any smokers) actually pull out...
One question still remains though, while being stroked the wrong way so to speak, would they all (meaning those not selling any smokers) actually pull out from the biggest market forum they have? They say they would and It's not my risk to take, but I have a feeling they would be forced to play along and maybe adapt at some point...

I think in decline which seems to be the repeated theme in our sport, doing new things should be they way to go rather than stay put and wait...

Watching the EMX races in Europe, and the recent DEP two stroke challenge made me feel uncomfy about what we are missing out in the premier series. It's plain stupid that we can't make a synergy with two good things.

Still, I have a feeling tides are changing, meanwhile both series is lacking what the other one brings.

But again, I'm not taking any risks, so I guess whatever...
Yes, normal thinking would have me believing that Honda (or Kawasaki or Suzuki) would seriously be shitting in their mess kit if they pulled out of the SX and MX series. Who would buy one of their fartburpers after they did something dumb like that? It's already beyond bad in off road for the Japanese brands.

If I ever bought another 250F, it would most likely have to be one of those 231 pound tubs of lard KTM produces for the simple fact that they still cater to the 2 stroke crowd as well.
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 10/11/2013 2:30pm
10/11/2013 2:30pm
Oh look, it's this thread again

GuyB
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GuyB 10/11/2013 2:41pm
10/11/2013 2:41pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
Oh look, it's this thread again [img]https://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2013/08/Mikesdeath.jpg[/img]
Oh look, it's this thread again

Yep. Like clockwork.
vanillaice782 10/11/2013 2:43pm
10/11/2013 2:43pm
I think a 3 stroke would be the most affordable option for privateers.
newmann
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newmann 10/11/2013 2:43pm
10/11/2013 2:43pm
Need more Rad Cheed Twatter posts....
vetmxr
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vetmxr 10/11/2013 2:43pm
10/11/2013 2:43pm
It would be cool to see a 125 feeder class on the circuit, even if it wasnt televised. I also understand the need for an affordable series. But in my opinion that would be the amatuer nationals. If you are ready for the big time, then you should also be prepared for a full on commitment, that includes marketing yourself, finding money to run your business, (and it needs to be treated like a business) fitness, staying healthy,etc. If you are ready and not just testing the waters to see how you'll do, you'll get noticed and maybe helped a little.

But just like starting a business in the real world, if your not prepared properly, or completely over your head to start with, you will soon get gobbled up. This insures the cream will rise to the top. Dreams are ok, but reality needs to be respected too. That being said, I love to grab a few beers after riding, then going home to watch the fast guys haul ass. The two worlds are very different to me. Other than needing to chase your dreams, I personally feel its unwise to make a go at the nationals thinking or hoping to get rich. Hell as far as I'm concerned Villopoto is underpaid for the crazy shit he does and the pace he does it at, he can have his money, he's earned it. Being supremely talented is not enough to make it, you really should be seemingly from another planet. Just like RC, JS, RV, etc. JMHO.

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Flatliner
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Flatliner 10/11/2013 2:59pm
10/11/2013 2:59pm
The thing is the 250 vs 250 is proven that it's fair already. Watch the cdn nationals. Or any race ever where they're on the gate together. It's not an unfair advantage either way.

Is not like a 10th-5th place guy is going to suddenly win on a yz 250.
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socalmx716 10/11/2013 2:59pm
10/11/2013 2:59pm
FI2T
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FI2T 10/11/2013 3:11pm
10/11/2013 3:11pm
It's fun watching people complain about these threads! It's also funny that some of the same people agree it is not currently a fair fight.....Remember when it was not fair for the 4t's? Rules were changed and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think all the oem's made 250 and 4504t options.
Did the oem's pull out of racing?

Really if its not fair and people agree what's so bad about petitioning for it? Would this so called tired story be brought up so much if it wasn't BS?
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Indy mxer 10/11/2013 3:30pm
10/11/2013 3:30pm
ga_pike wrote:
The problem I have with the OP's argument is that a 250 2 stroke is not a "feeder" level bike either. The sport has evolved. The...
The problem I have with the OP's argument is that a 250 2 stroke is not a "feeder" level bike either.

The sport has evolved. The days of guys jumping from 80's to pro are all but gone. With the exception of a guy like AC, most of them jump to the B class for a year or 2 before going pro. This gives them some time on the bigger bike and when they come out, they are more prepared to make the jump. Back when RC, Windham, and those guys came out, it was from 80 to 125. That's a key difference.

There is a feeder system already in place. It's called Loretta's, MEC, Mini-O's, and the like amateur national events. If these kids come up through the ranks, move to a 125 or 150 and then on the the 250F, Personally, I thin the racing at the 250 level in both SX and MX has been much better than the 450 class has been in the past couple of years. If I had my way, I'd do away with the 450 all together and run a 250 level 1 class where they limit the modifications and then an Open class as the premier class. This way, you can run whatever you want, fully works, no restrictions, no homo rule, run what you brung. Let's see what the factories are really capable of. Sure, it might be expensive, but you might see a privateer show up on a tricked out 2 stroke 500 AF.

That's my 2 cents which is worth, well, 2 cents.
Thanks DC for coming on here telling it straight!
Also good post ga_pike!

Like it or not guys, pro mx and sx wouldn't be shit without the OEM's. It's the same way in all forms of racing.
Without Ford, Chevy and Toyota going all in, NASCAR wouldn't be shit either.

Yes, we need to try take care of the privateers as much as is practical.
But at the end of the day, the OEM's are the ones committing the big bucks to our sport.
And we can't grow without their continued involvement and $.

Although, I would like to see Suz, Kaw, and Honda produce new 2 strokes. I feel it would help our sport at the amateur level
We can really use a 125 class again

Imo, the sport is in better shape now than it's ever been thanks to DC and Feld.
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GuyB 10/11/2013 3:52pm
10/11/2013 3:52pm
I think that when people talk about "The Sport," they need to clarify what they're talking about. Pro racing, or amateur racing. They're not the same thing.
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malachi177 10/11/2013 3:56pm
10/11/2013 3:56pm Edited Date/Time 10/11/2013 3:56pm
Jt$ wrote:
Strong 250 2 strokes have 55-58 hp. Factory 250f's have high 40's, close to 50 at best. So having privateers on bikes with 6-10 more hp...
Strong 250 2 strokes have 55-58 hp. Factory 250f's have high 40's, close to 50 at best. So having privateers on bikes with 6-10 more hp is the answer? I don't think that's really fair to teams that spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on
technology for their 250f either. Also, 250 2 strokes' disadvantage isn't rough tracks, it's traction IMO.

I don't have the answer but there are many more factors than you're listing.
That is a dumbass replyHuh Not allowing privateers to have more HP when teams spend hundreds of thousand of dollars on their 250f's? WTF!! Those said teams have more HP out of there 250f's then the privateers could ever get out of their 250's. So the privateers are at a disadvantage, so don't want them to even the playing field? The '13 Canadian Nationals ran 250 vs 250. Later in the year the 5 or so two strokes were inside the top ten, with the last race being won by a 250 smoker. It's a friggin excellent idea that should be allowed.
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dantheman 10/11/2013 3:59pm
10/11/2013 3:59pm Edited Date/Time 10/11/2013 4:00pm
GuyB wrote:
I think that when people talk about "The Sport," they need to clarify what they're talking about. Pro racing, or amateur racing. They're not the same...
I think that when people talk about "The Sport," they need to clarify what they're talking about. Pro racing, or amateur racing. They're not the same thing.
"The Sport" is comprised of both, they are inextricably linked! For Pro racing only begins after amateur racing is over Wink
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DrSweden 10/11/2013 4:01pm
10/11/2013 4:01pm
FI2T wrote:
It's fun watching people complain about these threads! It's also funny that some of the same people agree it is not currently a fair fight.....Remember when...
It's fun watching people complain about these threads! It's also funny that some of the same people agree it is not currently a fair fight.....Remember when it was not fair for the 4t's? Rules were changed and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think all the oem's made 250 and 4504t options.
Did the oem's pull out of racing?

Really if its not fair and people agree what's so bad about petitioning for it? Would this so called tired story be brought up so much if it wasn't BS?
True dat. It's a flaw that some are willing to live with, or are forced to accept, I guess it's annoying to be reminded.

Meanwhile, all I can do is to keep buying two-strokes, work from the bottom-up. But it's odd, that has to hurt the OEMs not producing them in the same fashion?

Is that better short and long term?

I don't get it...
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mx5471 10/11/2013 4:30pm
10/11/2013 4:30pm
I've said it many times here that the ones at the top have had factory sponsorship behind them from the start. RC and RV are good examples of that. When you look at MX posts, you see all kinds of 4 strokes 2, 3 and 4 years old on the showroom floor they sell for cheap to get rid of them. On the other hand, decent used 2 strokes sell in a minute. That tells you something. The average weekend warrior wants to have fun, and watch the big game on TV. But the factories haven't been able to provide the bikes for the general population that wants to ride. Too expensive, hence the 2 strokes going like crazy. Most of the top riders haven't ridden a 2 stroke since they were 12 yrs old. All they have been on is the 4's. I say let it play out on the track. If the 250F's are so advanced, what are they afraid of if 250 2t's run against them? Let them run, it's no skin off their ass. If the 250F's are so good, let them run against 250 2's. The rules force you to spend giant money. I say run what you got and take your chances.
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Jt$ 10/11/2013 4:45pm
10/11/2013 4:45pm
malachi177 wrote:
That is a dumbass reply:huh: Not allowing privateers to have more HP when teams spend hundreds of thousand of dollars on their 250f's? WTF!! Those said...
That is a dumbass replyHuh Not allowing privateers to have more HP when teams spend hundreds of thousand of dollars on their 250f's? WTF!! Those said teams have more HP out of there 250f's then the privateers could ever get out of their 250's. So the privateers are at a disadvantage, so don't want them to even the playing field? The '13 Canadian Nationals ran 250 vs 250. Later in the year the 5 or so two strokes were inside the top ten, with the last race being won by a 250 smoker. It's a friggin excellent idea that should be allowed.
"Leveling the playing field" isn't really what I consider the highest levels of racing for. This isn't amateur racing or regional racing. This is the highest level of the sport we have to offer. MotoGP, F1, Nascar, etc are all the top levels for what they do. This is ours. It should be the best against the best IMO. Keep in mind I was in this position of going against the best bikes my whole career. I also knew that the best riders deserved those bikes and that's why they were on them.
lostboy819 10/11/2013 5:16pm
10/11/2013 5:16pm
TNL830 wrote:
Wouldn't be easier to just have a HP limit in the 250f class? After every race the top 5 get impounded and choose 2-3 random bikes...
Wouldn't be easier to just have a HP limit in the 250f class? After every race the top 5 get impounded and choose 2-3 random bikes and test them if they are over the HP limit then they are DQ.
If They couldn't get a fuel rule right, then how would they enforce a HP rule ? You need to remember its not DC or the AMA who call the shots, it Honda,Yamaha,Suzuki,Kawasaki,KTM and others teams like Pro Circuit who say what is going to happen and I don't blame them. How much do you think it cost Pro Circuit to switch over to the 4 stroke ? they need to get a serious return on a serious investment. First time someone like RVs bike failed a HP test the rule would be thrown out just like RC and his fuel.
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GuyB 10/11/2013 5:20pm
10/11/2013 5:20pm Edited Date/Time 10/11/2013 5:20pm
Jt$ wrote:
"Leveling the playing field" isn't really what I consider the highest levels of racing for. This isn't amateur racing or regional racing. This is the highest...
"Leveling the playing field" isn't really what I consider the highest levels of racing for. This isn't amateur racing or regional racing. This is the highest level of the sport we have to offer. MotoGP, F1, Nascar, etc are all the top levels for what they do. This is ours. It should be the best against the best IMO. Keep in mind I was in this position of going against the best bikes my whole career. I also knew that the best riders deserved those bikes and that's why they were on them.
There's a lot of truth there. How many of the same people bitching here are the same ones that would line up to drool over old school factory bikes...whether they were 125s, 250s, or 500s? Or grump about production rules, and claim they want factory bikes back again?
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