And here ya go...from The Man

VRR7
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VRR7 9/30/2013 10:10pm
9/30/2013 10:10pm
How does the Production Rule Playout in MXDN ? KTM make a "factory edition" special bike that they homologate to get a jump on the competition in AMA because of the production rule - Still however they have to comply with those rules . FIM factory bikes are real factory bikes as they do not have a production rule ? I believe - When the USA goes to MXDN they run there "production" ruled bikes against the "factory" ruled bike I assume as it would not make sense to quickly build a factory bike for one event or for the riders to ride anything else than what they are used to. How much different is Ryan " Factory Edition" production rule homolgated bike compared to the "Full Factory" bikes of the other exactly the same bike the other KTM riders are riding . I read somewhere the honda's had to make quite a few changes to get the bikes to FIM rules v AMA rules - Like SOund DB etc and that effected the mapping and the engine mods etc etc so it is a quick fix - I mean not saying that it makes much difference on the track becuase the real production rule ama bikes are pretty good in there own right. Just wondering what different parts if any did he run in MXDN v what he had to run in MxDN ? Does anyone know how that all happens ?
Crush
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Crush 9/30/2013 10:13pm
9/30/2013 10:13pm
VRR7 wrote:
How does the Production Rule Playout in MXDN ? KTM make a "factory edition" special bike that they homologate to get a jump on the competition...
How does the Production Rule Playout in MXDN ? KTM make a "factory edition" special bike that they homologate to get a jump on the competition in AMA because of the production rule - Still however they have to comply with those rules . FIM factory bikes are real factory bikes as they do not have a production rule ? I believe - When the USA goes to MXDN they run there "production" ruled bikes against the "factory" ruled bike I assume as it would not make sense to quickly build a factory bike for one event or for the riders to ride anything else than what they are used to. How much different is Ryan " Factory Edition" production rule homolgated bike compared to the "Full Factory" bikes of the other exactly the same bike the other KTM riders are riding . I read somewhere the honda's had to make quite a few changes to get the bikes to FIM rules v AMA rules - Like SOund DB etc and that effected the mapping and the engine mods etc etc so it is a quick fix - I mean not saying that it makes much difference on the track becuase the real production rule ama bikes are pretty good in there own right. Just wondering what different parts if any did he run in MXDN v what he had to run in MxDN ? Does anyone know how that all happens ?
FIM event, anything goes.

Reedy said in 10 when he went on the Zook, Steve Ramon's 450 was 22 pounds lighter than his.

22 pounds!
observer
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observer 9/30/2013 10:35pm
9/30/2013 10:35pm
I'm thinking Roger knows just how to push buttons on Ryan.
Ryan strikes me as the type(judging by how I've seen him get pissed/ride), that he just might need a kick in the ass sometimes. Roger D has Ryan's complete undivided attention and I'm sure they've spent a lot of serious moments looking each other in the eyes & being candid.
newmann
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newmann 9/30/2013 11:24pm
9/30/2013 11:24pm
VRR7 wrote:
How does the Production Rule Playout in MXDN ? KTM make a "factory edition" special bike that they homologate to get a jump on the competition...
How does the Production Rule Playout in MXDN ? KTM make a "factory edition" special bike that they homologate to get a jump on the competition in AMA because of the production rule - Still however they have to comply with those rules . FIM factory bikes are real factory bikes as they do not have a production rule ? I believe - When the USA goes to MXDN they run there "production" ruled bikes against the "factory" ruled bike I assume as it would not make sense to quickly build a factory bike for one event or for the riders to ride anything else than what they are used to. How much different is Ryan " Factory Edition" production rule homolgated bike compared to the "Full Factory" bikes of the other exactly the same bike the other KTM riders are riding . I read somewhere the honda's had to make quite a few changes to get the bikes to FIM rules v AMA rules - Like SOund DB etc and that effected the mapping and the engine mods etc etc so it is a quick fix - I mean not saying that it makes much difference on the track becuase the real production rule ama bikes are pretty good in there own right. Just wondering what different parts if any did he run in MXDN v what he had to run in MxDN ? Does anyone know how that all happens ?
Crush wrote:
FIM event, anything goes.

Reedy said in 10 when he went on the Zook, Steve Ramon's 450 was 22 pounds lighter than his.

22 pounds!
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another 22 tweet? Reeds bike would have been heavier than a production line pig considering bikes these days are listed with a full load of fuel. Race weights are with no fuel, correct? 22 pounds???? Prove it.Laughing

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.ukaf.
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.ukaf. 9/30/2013 11:41pm
9/30/2013 11:41pm
VRR7 wrote:
How does the Production Rule Playout in MXDN ? KTM make a "factory edition" special bike that they homologate to get a jump on the competition...
How does the Production Rule Playout in MXDN ? KTM make a "factory edition" special bike that they homologate to get a jump on the competition in AMA because of the production rule - Still however they have to comply with those rules . FIM factory bikes are real factory bikes as they do not have a production rule ? I believe - When the USA goes to MXDN they run there "production" ruled bikes against the "factory" ruled bike I assume as it would not make sense to quickly build a factory bike for one event or for the riders to ride anything else than what they are used to. How much different is Ryan " Factory Edition" production rule homolgated bike compared to the "Full Factory" bikes of the other exactly the same bike the other KTM riders are riding . I read somewhere the honda's had to make quite a few changes to get the bikes to FIM rules v AMA rules - Like SOund DB etc and that effected the mapping and the engine mods etc etc so it is a quick fix - I mean not saying that it makes much difference on the track becuase the real production rule ama bikes are pretty good in there own right. Just wondering what different parts if any did he run in MXDN v what he had to run in MxDN ? Does anyone know how that all happens ?
Crush wrote:
FIM event, anything goes.

Reedy said in 10 when he went on the Zook, Steve Ramon's 450 was 22 pounds lighter than his.

22 pounds!
newmann wrote:
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another...
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another 22 tweet? Reeds bike would have been heavier than a production line pig considering bikes these days are listed with a full load of fuel. Race weights are with no fuel, correct? 22 pounds???? Prove it.Laughing
FIM weight limit for 450F = 99kg = 217lb

Ramon bike = 218lb

Stock bike = 224lb (or there abouts)

Reed bike = 239lb

What on earth were they bolting to it to get it that heavy?
Crush
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Crush 9/30/2013 11:50pm
9/30/2013 11:50pm
I'm 90% sure that was the number, was a pulp interview or similar after the 10 MXDN or thereabouts.

Didn't know the FIM weight limit was 217...

Stock RMZ450 as per their site is 249. http://www.suzukicycles.com/Product%20Lines/Cycles/Products/RM-Z450/201…

And I know for a fact DV has ranted heaps about the RMZ being a fat pig... I'm pretty sure he said at least 238lbs
Crush
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Crush 10/1/2013 12:06am
10/1/2013 12:06am
haha... and I just looked at it and you said BS then too Newman... Dammit, I gotta find the link!
.ukaf.
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.ukaf. 10/1/2013 12:25am
10/1/2013 12:25am
Crush wrote:
I'm 90% sure that was the number, was a pulp interview or similar after the 10 MXDN or thereabouts. Didn't know the FIM weight limit was...
I'm 90% sure that was the number, was a pulp interview or similar after the 10 MXDN or thereabouts.

Didn't know the FIM weight limit was 217...

Stock RMZ450 as per their site is 249. http://www.suzukicycles.com/Product%20Lines/Cycles/Products/RM-Z450/201…

And I know for a fact DV has ranted heaps about the RMZ being a fat pig... I'm pretty sure he said at least 238lbs
Go back to the 9/10 Suzuki information and the weights are lower (no fuel etc) - which is where the 224 came from.

The FIM limit is with coolant/oils/air etc but without fuel. I'm pretty sure the new published weights from manufacturers include fuel - perhaps a set amount?

Add in 10 litres of fuel and the GP bikes will be around 235lb actual race weight.

The tolerance for GP bikes is 1% so none of them will be running super close to the 217lb limit.

It's hard to see how a 225lb stock bike turned in to a 238lb race bike - unless they weighed it with fuel in which case it's nigh on the same as a GP bike.
ocscottie
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ocscottie 10/1/2013 12:41am
10/1/2013 12:41am
I havent read any of this thread, i just wish Dunge rode every single race the way he did at Southwick the day they couldnt get his bike started. That was intense!
Phillips467
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Phillips467 10/1/2013 1:47am
10/1/2013 1:47am Edited Date/Time 10/1/2013 1:51am
ocscottie wrote:
I havent read any of this thread, i just wish Dunge rode [i]every single race[/i] the way he did at Southwick the day they couldnt get...
I havent read any of this thread, i just wish Dunge rode every single race the way he did at Southwick the day they couldnt get his bike started. That was intense!
It sounds like that's what DeCoster wants too Dry
The Rock
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The Rock 10/1/2013 2:34am
10/1/2013 2:34am
sclark309d wrote:
Roger called out Roczen during SX when Roczen quit a qualifier to save his energy for the LCQ. Roger said something like "Save yourself? Its only...
Roger called out Roczen during SX when Roczen quit a qualifier to save his energy for the LCQ.

Roger said something like "Save yourself? Its only a few laps"

He tolerates no bullshit as far as I can see.

And he does his riders no favors by coddling them.
Just more reasons why DeCoster is called The Man in our sport.
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CamP 10/1/2013 5:47am
10/1/2013 5:47am
Villopoto stole Dungey's mojo. It's up to Dungey to find it again.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 10/1/2013 7:31am
10/1/2013 7:31am
CamP wrote:
Villopoto stole Dungey's mojo. It's up to Dungey to find it again.
^^^^
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davistld01 10/1/2013 7:35am
10/1/2013 7:35am
Crush wrote:
FIM event, anything goes.

Reedy said in 10 when he went on the Zook, Steve Ramon's 450 was 22 pounds lighter than his.

22 pounds!
newmann wrote:
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another...
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another 22 tweet? Reeds bike would have been heavier than a production line pig considering bikes these days are listed with a full load of fuel. Race weights are with no fuel, correct? 22 pounds???? Prove it.Laughing
.ukaf. wrote:
FIM weight limit for 450F = 99kg = 217lb Ramon bike = 218lb Stock bike = 224lb (or there abouts) Reed bike = 239lb What on...
FIM weight limit for 450F = 99kg = 217lb

Ramon bike = 218lb

Stock bike = 224lb (or there abouts)

Reed bike = 239lb

What on earth were they bolting to it to get it that heavy?
Chad's ego.
ridge
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ridge 10/1/2013 9:13am
10/1/2013 9:13am
You guys should go empty your fuel tanks and weigh your bikes, and then compare that to the claimed dry weight.

In 1993 I raced a KTM 250 (with a 350 motor) that weighed 1 or 2 pounds less than my 125. Lots of titanium...
dkg
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dkg 10/1/2013 10:27am
10/1/2013 10:27am
hartebreak wrote:
Probably a whole lot of truth to what you said. Roger asked KTM to invest a lot of money and resources to bring the program up...
Probably a whole lot of truth to what you said. Roger asked KTM to invest a lot of money and resources to bring the program up to championship level and then he brought in Ryan. No doubt that has put a ton of pressure on Ryan's shoulders. Now 2 years into it and things aren't going as well as either one of them have hoped. Just as in any sport or business, when things don't go as planned after investing so much, fingers start getting pointed and feelings hurt. Roger himself is probably under pressure from Austria due to the money and effort they are putting in. You also have to know that they are probably on the phone a lot trying to get new parts made to test to get Ryan comfortable which probably is starting to raise some eyebrows as well. It's got to be an interesting dynamic with the fact that KTM is ridiculously dominant in Europe yet over here it seems like people riding the same bike are struggling. It is obvious that Ryan is very passionate about what he does and give 200% but I think he is falling into the "the harder you try, the worse it gets" cycle and he needs to step back, remember why he loves riding so much and have fun. It's very apparent that this is now "a job" and when that happens the fire goes away. Maybe he needs to go ride Erzberg or do some sort of other riding this fall that is away from paychecks and expectations and re-charge the batteries a bit. Our sport needs Ryan to perform well and it isn't good for anyone when top riders get burned out. Same thing KDub went thru back in his Suzuki days.
Not really sure I agree with you that KTM corporate is unhappy. Things are going VERY WELL for KTM. Did they really expect for Ryan to get on the new bike and destroy the field? Fact of the matter is that there are many very great riders out there including one of the best of the era RV. RD5's performance over the last couple years has been excellent and brought many "firsts" for KTM. The company is seeing previously unknown success in the US market. Note this press release from the first of the year:

KTM North America is proud to announce that KTM was elected Motorcycle USA’s “Best OEM (original equipment manufacturer) of 2012”, an accolade of which the company is very proud and which reflects its commitment to creating high quality, innovative READY TO RACE motorcycles. The company also congratulates KTM North America President, Jon-Erik Burleson on being named “Motorcyclist of the Year” by the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association).

The company has been enjoying increasing success in the USA with a surge of 15% in retail sales in it's core offroad competition segment and in particular in the premium models, the 350 SX-F motocross and the street-legal 500 EXC Enduro bikes. The latter won “Bike of the Year” in the big circulation Dirt Rider, Dirt Bike and Cycle World magazines complementing the 450 XC-W’s Shootout Win Awards in Dirt Bike and Dirt Rider.


All in all I would be amazed if corporate KTM isn't well satisfied with both the RDs efforts over the last two years.

As for your comments on RD5's riding, etc., you may be right. As for the results at MXoN, perhaps there is more parity between the Riders on the various circuits than any one was willing to acknowledge. Now, if we had a Supercross of Nations the outcome would probably be dramatically different.

Just some thoughts ...
DrSweden
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DrSweden 10/1/2013 11:53am
10/1/2013 11:53am
VRR7 wrote:
Honest - Roger said RD was unhappy with the KTM - Honest Truth Roger said their was nothing wrong with the Bike - Honest Opinion (...
Honest - Roger said RD was unhappy with the KTM - Honest Truth

Roger said their was nothing wrong with the Bike - Honest Opinion ( Becuase how can he know the truth either way wrong or right ? )

What is Rogers Role ? Team Manager - Should he make RD happy with the bike or tell him he is talking nonsense that Ryan is the problem ? Which is more conducive to getting winning results ie "Improve" ?

Max Biaggi used to come in and say the bike is bad - They would pretend to work on the bike and send him out again with the same settings - He would come back and say "much better" . Now that would be a Lie ? Effective Phycology however.

RD has been coming 2nd all year long - Phycology ! So he comes second again and believes it is the bike - What is a Coach Team manager role ? To make his team believe they can win ! Roger did not do that plus his team has not won for a while - No surprise.

USA used to be the best but no longer

A team coach should have some phycological skills ? You can train a kid by saying what a pathetic worm he is and hope he has desire not to be a worm - Or you can train a kid by saying he is very talented and good job well done - Both could be considered honest Opinions as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Very basic Stuff.

Besides I am sure proffessional riders are under contract to not say the bikes are bad ? So what is the legal when your team manager tells the world that you said the bike is a POS ?

Like James Stewart on a YZ450 - He did not get along with it - But Davie Millsaps did - So who is correct ? Both JS was unhapy with the YZ450 got on the RMZ450 and won first off - Davie got on the RMZ450 and did even better. So what if there is nothing wrong with the bike - If you are unhappy on it you will not perform the same as if you are happy with it ?

If Ryan cannot find a happy setting then his team manager should help him find a happy setting !

Motogp you see all the time - " I found a setting" On the exact same bike not same model and it makes a huge difference to the lap time and results !

So who's Job is it then ? If it is Ryan Job then why did Roger go with ?
You have a point, it's probably all psychological, or just that he's not good enough to beat RV. But not being on a factory bike gives you the lesser hand to start with, knowing others have more resources. It's like getting the job you want, rather than been giving a job you don't want but you are desperate, it's not about about the job itself, it's about you not being the major player in your destiny. The brain adapts to crazy things, if the mindset is set straight from the beginning.

The big discussion is how should a person feel happiness, confidence in something that objectively is good enough (if think that is the case on any factory ride), but the person feels some dissatisfaction. Either the team try to make the person happy, over and over, despite "poor results", KTM has even invented a new bike for him, until there's no stamina left from the team, and either he go elsewhere, and try to find the mojo elsewhere, and maybe blame the next new bike and settings for a while longer, until history repeats it self (Stewart scenario, but he has been quiet about the bike this time?). Or his competition gets injured, suddenly he wins a title (I feel is the case with Dungey when RV was gone) and the bike is all good. But if not, the guy finally gets it, he's probably on the way down, or wasn't good enough to start with, you then as a rider have to start to look inward and see the reality. Seems some riders do that when they are on a decline, gets another factory ride, but this time as a support rider, and voila, stops complaining it seems?

I don't know if RD will ever be on RVs pace, don't know if he would perform less if he started to release he needs something else than a better bike to beat RV. Seems DeCoster stills believes in him though, that he has what it takes to beat RV, but to go the usual path, the bikes needs some work hasn't paid off yet, and maybe it's starting to wear out the team. It will totally work against him if they are frustrated because the constant blame.

It's hard to know here, but to work with a problem, you really need to get there's a problem, and I think logic says the problem is RD not the bike, so to try to pet his ego, make the fat kid happy by buying him more candy (it's the bike, let's try this) is to my knowledge the wrong way to approach problems in general. You just push the issue forward. RD needs to get, either he's not delivering to his potential, (it's not an isolated thing, that in some cases might work with candy, like your scenario with the GP-racers, he's constantly getting beat) or if he wan't to continue this play it safe, crashing less, he needs to accept being no 2 for a while longer.

But what the hell do I know...

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cptktm63
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cptktm63 10/1/2013 12:35pm
10/1/2013 12:35pm
sclark309d wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/09/29/32990/s1200_DungyMXDN.jpg[/img]
All this does not matter. Dungey does need to dig down deep and figure out how to be the rider he is capable of... Hard to fault KTM with every moto win going to them... Barcia and Tomac rode their hearts out. MXDN is a special race. The only race that is a team event. Remember that Dungey was the only consistent rider of the US team. (but he rode a lackluster race) Tomac through our chance of the win away. (but I don't blame him) Barcia rode well. (but had bad luck) The team management could have managed the team better. (but how do you manage three prima donna riders) DeCoster called it as he saw it. (I'm sure he is tired of Dungey waiting for another Villipoto injury)
gnarwhip
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gnarwhip 10/1/2013 12:43pm
10/1/2013 12:43pm
I heard the real reason he's slow is because he's scared of J-Law beating him next year.
sclark309d 10/1/2013 12:46pm
10/1/2013 12:46pm
ocscottie wrote:
I havent read any of this thread, i just wish Dunge rode [i]every single race[/i] the way he did at Southwick the day they couldnt get...
I havent read any of this thread, i just wish Dunge rode every single race the way he did at Southwick the day they couldnt get his bike started. That was intense!
I bet he was pissed off THAT day....ooohhhhh - I get it....
newmann
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newmann 10/1/2013 1:39pm
10/1/2013 1:39pm
ridge wrote:
You guys should go empty your fuel tanks and weigh your bikes, and then compare that to the claimed dry weight. In 1993 I raced a...
You guys should go empty your fuel tanks and weigh your bikes, and then compare that to the claimed dry weight.

In 1993 I raced a KTM 250 (with a 350 motor) that weighed 1 or 2 pounds less than my 125. Lots of titanium...
But we are not talking about our bikes. I'm guessing the Reed comment is referring to his factory 450 Zook. That bike I am sure had lots of mag, ti and carbon on it. Just trying to figure where they could have actually added ten pounds, let alone 22 pounds to a factory bike. Makes no sense to me. If Ramon's was 218, add 22 equals 240 pounds. That's when Hannah walks into his bosses office and starts spewing about the 240 pound tub of shit in 1981. Laughing
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peelout 10/1/2013 2:31pm
10/1/2013 2:31pm
gnarwhip wrote:
I heard the real reason he's slow is because he's scared of J-Law beating him next year.
JLaw on a Two Two machine no less
gnarwhip
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gnarwhip 10/1/2013 9:20pm
10/1/2013 9:20pm


That would be something.

This was only a few years ago...could still happen

VRR7
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VRR7 10/1/2013 10:25pm
10/1/2013 10:25pm
gnarwhip wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/10/01/33144/s1200_ssssss.jpg[/img] That would be something. This was only a few years ago...could still happen [embed] https://youtu.be/K0ZMpEJkWCQ [/embed]


That would be something.

This was only a few years ago...could still happen

Real Life Example of the Value of Work Ethic.
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Fearo 10/2/2013 12:43am
10/2/2013 12:43am
newmann wrote:
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another...
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another 22 tweet? Reeds bike would have been heavier than a production line pig considering bikes these days are listed with a full load of fuel. Race weights are with no fuel, correct? 22 pounds???? Prove it.Laughing
.ukaf. wrote:
FIM weight limit for 450F = 99kg = 217lb Ramon bike = 218lb Stock bike = 224lb (or there abouts) Reed bike = 239lb What on...
FIM weight limit for 450F = 99kg = 217lb

Ramon bike = 218lb

Stock bike = 224lb (or there abouts)

Reed bike = 239lb

What on earth were they bolting to it to get it that heavy?
davistld01 wrote:
Chad's ego.
onenastynotch
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onenastynotch 10/2/2013 6:04am
10/2/2013 6:04am
newmann wrote:
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another...
There is still a minimum weight rule in place. I'd have to see the bikes on the scales to believe that. 22 lbs? Or just another 22 tweet? Reeds bike would have been heavier than a production line pig considering bikes these days are listed with a full load of fuel. Race weights are with no fuel, correct? 22 pounds???? Prove it.Laughing
my 2008 rmz450 with stock exhaust half skid plate rad braces and full tank of fuel which is only 1.6 gallons..weighed 251 pounds on my race car scales ....my 2011 rmz with yosh stainless system and same skid plate and rad braces weigh 248 ....my friends 2012 kx450 weighed 249 ......
Crush
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Crush 10/2/2013 6:45pm
10/2/2013 6:45pm
OK... So I couldn't find the qoute so went straight to the man! Good dude!

Granted I added 7 pounds but everyone's changed their numbers once in a while right?! Cool Sideways

@Crtwotwo Hey dude, settle an argument for me, how much lighter was Ramon's RMZ than Yours at Des Nations that year? Can't find the qoute!

— Alex (@Its_Crusha) October 2, 2013

@Its_Crusha like 15lbs...

— Chad Reed (@CRtwotwo) October 2, 2013



Is that ok Newman?Wink Laughing Huh Blush Whistling Evil Woohoo Laughing
rideguy721
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rideguy721 10/2/2013 10:09pm
10/2/2013 10:09pm
I'd be pissed if my boss just trashed talked me, I wouldn't want to work for him if people had nothing but shit to say when they had time to say it.
Tony_Clements 10/3/2013 2:50am
10/3/2013 2:50am
Outsider wrote:
So the Dunge was whoring it up in Amsterdam for 24 hours... no wonder!!



"Tongue "
thrillbillie91 wrote:
i'm surprised he didn't just drive rather than be stuck in NL for 24hrs? in US terms its not that far?
philG wrote:
Its a six hour drive, hardly work sitting a day for , and im sure with the amount of guys travelling over from the UK...
Its a six hour drive, hardly work sitting a day for , and im sure with the amount of guys travelling over from the UK , getting him picked up wouldnt have been an issue.
Took me 7.5 hrs from France, Dunkirk, in a camper on cruise at 110kph. About 740k.

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