Looks like KTM is going....

Arkmx
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Arkmx
Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 2:15pm
.

Looks like KTM is going to be what Honda was in the 80's.

Could be wrong, but sure looks like it's going that way....

The New World Order.... KTM?

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ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 8/22/2013 7:39am
8/22/2013 7:39am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 7:41am
They're trying . But right now Kawasaki and Honda have the titles obviously. Going to be tough to knock rv off .
burn1986
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burn1986 8/22/2013 7:48am
8/22/2013 7:48am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 7:59am
I hate to say it, but Japan has always seems to come back stronger from the brink of disaster.
SEE ARE125 8/22/2013 7:51am
8/22/2013 7:51am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 7:54am
That's what the future is looking like. If so, good for KTM. I think they're great for the sport, and their product line is impressive. They have something for everyone. The only thing I could see that they need to add would be mild mannered air cooled 4-strokes, 80cc-400cc, for the average Joe Q. Trailrider. Something similiar to the Honda XRs.
newmann
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newmann 8/22/2013 7:55am
8/22/2013 7:55am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
They're trying . But right now Kawasaki and Honda have the titles obviously. Going to be tough to knock rv off .
Honda has been known to buy a champion or two haven't they? They've definitely been known to shit on a few.

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newmann
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newmann 8/22/2013 7:58am
8/22/2013 7:58am
burn1986 wrote:
I hate to say it, but Japan has always seems to come back stronger from the brink of disaster.
All it would take is a good product, lower price and a little marketing. That's how it worked the first time they killed off the competition.
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 8/22/2013 7:58am
8/22/2013 7:58am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 8:18am
Honda's amateur to pro program has really set them up with the best American talent over the last 5 years or so. Canard, Barcia, and Tomac remind me a lot of the old Honda teams of the 80's. I think of KTM as more of an international presence, using the GP's as its talent pool and graduating world champs to the US program. I don't think KTM is the new Honda, but they have certainly joined them as a powerhouse.

Edit: I read the OP's question as motocross specific, Team KTM vs. Team Honda. If we are talking overall OEM vs. OEM, I think KTM's product lineup and domination in off-road definitely sets them up to be overall stronger than Honda. You'll still see more Honda's on a motocross track, though.
kongols
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kongols 8/22/2013 7:59am
8/22/2013 7:59am
And it's all in just four years. That's called ass whooping of biblical proportions.
TX24
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TX24 8/22/2013 8:05am
8/22/2013 8:05am
They built up their base first in offroad. Seems most of big four have almost given up on enduro type riding and concentrate on side by sides and atvs.
burn1986
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burn1986 8/22/2013 8:07am
8/22/2013 8:07am
KTM seems to build the bikes that everyone wants. There is nothing cooler than a 150 and 200 2-stroke, as well as a 350 4-stroke.
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kzizok 8/22/2013 8:19am
8/22/2013 8:19am
GrapeApe wrote:
Honda's amateur to pro program has really set them up with the best American talent over the last 5 years or so. Canard, Barcia, and Tomac...
Honda's amateur to pro program has really set them up with the best American talent over the last 5 years or so. Canard, Barcia, and Tomac remind me a lot of the old Honda teams of the 80's. I think of KTM as more of an international presence, using the GP's as its talent pool and graduating world champs to the US program. I don't think KTM is the new Honda, but they have certainly joined them as a powerhouse.

Edit: I read the OP's question as motocross specific, Team KTM vs. Team Honda. If we are talking overall OEM vs. OEM, I think KTM's product lineup and domination in off-road definitely sets them up to be overall stronger than Honda. You'll still see more Honda's on a motocross track, though.
I think you are mistaken about Honda's am. program. Canard was a team green rider and Tomac was groomed through Suzuki.
Arkmx
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Arkmx 8/22/2013 8:23am
8/22/2013 8:23am
GrapeApe wrote:
Honda's amateur to pro program has really set them up with the best American talent over the last 5 years or so. Canard, Barcia, and Tomac...
Honda's amateur to pro program has really set them up with the best American talent over the last 5 years or so. Canard, Barcia, and Tomac remind me a lot of the old Honda teams of the 80's. I think of KTM as more of an international presence, using the GP's as its talent pool and graduating world champs to the US program. I don't think KTM is the new Honda, but they have certainly joined them as a powerhouse.

Edit: I read the OP's question as motocross specific, Team KTM vs. Team Honda. If we are talking overall OEM vs. OEM, I think KTM's product lineup and domination in off-road definitely sets them up to be overall stronger than Honda. You'll still see more Honda's on a motocross track, though.
kzizok wrote:
I think you are mistaken about Honda's am. program. Canard was a team green rider and Tomac was groomed through Suzuki.
.

Plus Honda pulled out supporting Honda of Houston's program, and Shaun's boy goes and rides a KAW. just to race!

Honda was a no show at LL's this year too!

.
burn1986
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burn1986 8/22/2013 8:23am
8/22/2013 8:23am
I'm sorry Grape, you can't edit or take back what you said, dammit!
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 8/22/2013 8:26am
8/22/2013 8:26am
kzizok wrote:
I think you are mistaken about Honda's am. program. Canard was a team green rider and Tomac was groomed through Suzuki.


Sheriff245 8/22/2013 8:30am
8/22/2013 8:30am
kzizok wrote:
I think you are mistaken about Honda's am. program. Canard was a team green rider and Tomac was groomed through Suzuki.
GrapeApe wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/users/64/photos/7299/s780_01707lorettasday3.jpg?1294250772[/img] [img]http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/Eli-Tomac-01.jpg[/img]


They only rode Hondas in their last amateur year, after signing their first Pro contract...
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Shawn142 8/22/2013 8:41am
8/22/2013 8:41am
Honda doesn't really have an amateur program, that's all Geico and Amsoil going after younger talent from other amateur programs just before they turn pro. Canard from Kawi, Tomac from Suzuki, Wharton from KTM, Bogle team green. They all switched to Amsoil/Gieco just before going pro.







(Trey Canard)
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GrapeApe 8/22/2013 8:43am
8/22/2013 8:43am
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy or B class, graduating them to the Geico team for the 250 class, then graduating them to the factory 450 team. They have a constant pipeline of talent and have done a good job of nurturing that talent into race wins and championships. Wharton, Canard, Barcia, Tomac, Bogle, Bell, with Bisceglia and Jordan Smith on the way. Yes, with the exception of Barcia they all rode for different manufacturers on 85's, but once deemed worthy Honda gobbled them up.
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Xeno 8/22/2013 8:45am
8/22/2013 8:45am
KTM sold 107,142 motorcycles globally in 2012.

Honda sold 15.5 million motorcycles globally in the 2012 fiscal year.
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Shawn142 8/22/2013 8:46am
8/22/2013 8:46am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 8:47am
GrapeApe wrote:
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy...
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy or B class, graduating them to the Geico team for the 250 class, then graduating them to the factory 450 team. They have a constant pipeline of talent and have done a good job of nurturing that talent into race wins and championships. Wharton, Canard, Barcia, Tomac, Bogle, Bell, with Bisceglia and Jordan Smith on the way. Yes, with the exception of Barcia they all rode for different manufacturers on 85's, but once deemed worthy Honda gobbled them up.
I think you are heavily exaggerating Honda's direct involvement in all this. Honda of course supplies the bikes but it's the Geico squad and Ziggy who should get the credit for signing these kids away from other manufacturers.

Honda as an OEM basically has no amateur presence to speak of beyond this program with Geico.

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GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 8/22/2013 8:51am
8/22/2013 8:51am
burn1986 wrote:
I'm sorry Grape, you can't edit or take back what you said, dammit!
I didn't edit or delete anything I said, I added to what I said. What are you thinking I said then edited?
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peelout 8/22/2013 8:54am
8/22/2013 8:54am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 8:54am
Sheriff245 wrote:
They only rode Hondas in their last amateur year, after signing their first Pro contract...
nope, Grape Ape's point was valid.

had Kawasaki or Suzuki stepped up for their last seasons (obviously the game changing seasons for both riders before going pro) then they would have went straight to the Satellite Suzuki or Kawi teams (JLaw, Bagget, etc). but both Kawi and Suzuki let those two go, Geico Honda saw what they were worth, signed them to long time deals before their am careers were up, and are now looking like geniuses for doing it.
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GrapeApe 8/22/2013 9:00am
8/22/2013 9:00am
GrapeApe wrote:
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy...
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy or B class, graduating them to the Geico team for the 250 class, then graduating them to the factory 450 team. They have a constant pipeline of talent and have done a good job of nurturing that talent into race wins and championships. Wharton, Canard, Barcia, Tomac, Bogle, Bell, with Bisceglia and Jordan Smith on the way. Yes, with the exception of Barcia they all rode for different manufacturers on 85's, but once deemed worthy Honda gobbled them up.
Shawn142 wrote:
I think you are heavily exaggerating Honda's direct involvement in all this. Honda of course supplies the bikes but it's the Geico squad and Ziggy who...
I think you are heavily exaggerating Honda's direct involvement in all this. Honda of course supplies the bikes but it's the Geico squad and Ziggy who should get the credit for signing these kids away from other manufacturers.

Honda as an OEM basically has no amateur presence to speak of beyond this program with Geico.
Holy shit, I guess I really touched a nerve here and we are going to start splitting the spit hairs. If you don't think American Honda is backing that program you are delusional. Yes, they turn it over to Ziggy to run under the Factory Connection tent, but the plan is to keep the factory 450 team stocked with riders that have come through the program all the way from the amateurs. Please don't ask me to cite sources, I've already spent enough time explaining the obvious.
newmann
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newmann 8/22/2013 9:02am
8/22/2013 9:02am
GrapeApe wrote:
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy...
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy or B class, graduating them to the Geico team for the 250 class, then graduating them to the factory 450 team. They have a constant pipeline of talent and have done a good job of nurturing that talent into race wins and championships. Wharton, Canard, Barcia, Tomac, Bogle, Bell, with Bisceglia and Jordan Smith on the way. Yes, with the exception of Barcia they all rode for different manufacturers on 85's, but once deemed worthy Honda gobbled them up.
Kind of reflects on what I said about Honda buying champions.
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JW381 8/22/2013 9:07am
8/22/2013 9:07am
Xeno wrote:
KTM sold 107,142 motorcycles globally in 2012.

Honda sold 15.5 million motorcycles globally in the 2012 fiscal year.
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs?

KTM is new to the street bike gig, but for the most part they're strictly dirt bike, which is why I agree with the OP that they're on track to be the dominate presence in dirtbike disciplines (not necessarily in sales, but that too probably).
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GrapeApe 8/22/2013 9:08am
8/22/2013 9:08am
GrapeApe wrote:
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy...
Sigh, okay, I guess I need elaborate for those that like to challenge every point. Honda has a program of grabbing riders as amateurs in Schoolboy or B class, graduating them to the Geico team for the 250 class, then graduating them to the factory 450 team. They have a constant pipeline of talent and have done a good job of nurturing that talent into race wins and championships. Wharton, Canard, Barcia, Tomac, Bogle, Bell, with Bisceglia and Jordan Smith on the way. Yes, with the exception of Barcia they all rode for different manufacturers on 85's, but once deemed worthy Honda gobbled them up.
newmann wrote:
Kind of reflects on what I said about Honda buying champions.
I guess you can look at it that way, but there is a lot more uncertainty signing a rider that is fresh off 85's than signing a rider that has already won pro championships like RC. Think about how many mini-bike prodigies never pan out to be champions.
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Mitch_Berger 8/22/2013 9:32am
8/22/2013 9:32am
Part of the problem the Japanese manufactures are dealing with is a strong Yen. This makes exporting products very expensive.
I would bet that Honda and Kawasaki are breaking even on the mx bikes they export here. When the world economy slowed in
2009, the japanese manufactures cut back R&D while the european manufactures went bigger on R&D. 80% of mx bikes never
see a track. So if you could buy a bike that weighted less than 240 pounds with e start and 6 speeds, why would anyone buy
a BHP from Japan? Most riders over 40 like e start bikes. KTM has the best after sales marketing out there which helps.
When walking into most KTM shops there is lots of enthusiasm and exciting products. Many of these employees are
hardcore riders that are glad to answer questions about bike setup or great riding areas. The mega dealers out there
that mostly handle Japanese bikes have taken this personal touch away to some degree.
So with KTM you have a choice of 125, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 450 , 500 and 690.
The japanese give you 250 and 450
peelout
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peelout 8/22/2013 9:34am
8/22/2013 9:34am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 9:43am
Xeno wrote:
KTM sold 107,142 motorcycles globally in 2012.

Honda sold 15.5 million motorcycles globally in the 2012 fiscal year.
JW381 wrote:
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs? KTM is new to the street...
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs?

KTM is new to the street bike gig, but for the most part they're strictly dirt bike, which is why I agree with the OP that they're on track to be the dominate presence in dirtbike disciplines (not necessarily in sales, but that too probably).
bro, i went to some free concert series at a ski resort around here last weekend and rode up on my Yamaha 1300. as we were getting off the bikes and doing up saddlebags and shit, up rolls this sexy KTM supermotard with dual exhaust coming out the back and an equally whorish Ducati in the same group. i went from six o'clock to straight up noon in about 4 seconds.

wish i woulda got a picture of those sexy little sluts
Arkmx
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Arkmx 8/22/2013 9:46am
8/22/2013 9:46am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2013 10:05am
Xeno wrote:
KTM sold 107,142 motorcycles globally in 2012.

Honda sold 15.5 million motorcycles globally in the 2012 fiscal year.
JW381 wrote:
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs? KTM is new to the street...
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs?

KTM is new to the street bike gig, but for the most part they're strictly dirt bike, which is why I agree with the OP that they're on track to be the dominate presence in dirtbike disciplines (not necessarily in sales, but that too probably).
peelout wrote:
bro, i went to some free concert series at a ski resort around here last weekend and rode up on my Yamaha 1300. as we were...
bro, i went to some free concert series at a ski resort around here last weekend and rode up on my Yamaha 1300. as we were getting off the bikes and doing up saddlebags and shit, up rolls this sexy KTM supermotard with dual exhaust coming out the back and an equally whorish Ducati in the same group. i went from six o'clock to straight up noon in about 4 seconds.

wish i woulda got a picture of those sexy little sluts
.

One of these Peelout?

Lost it's link.... Here's another photo.




.
E-man811
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E-man811 8/22/2013 9:47am
8/22/2013 9:47am
Xeno wrote:
KTM sold 107,142 motorcycles globally in 2012.

Honda sold 15.5 million motorcycles globally in the 2012 fiscal year.
So what those number clearly say is that KTM is not going to compete with Honda as a motorcycle manufacturer as a whole. Nope, not anytime soon.

But what the conversation is about is what do the dirtbike specific numbers are starting to look like. That would be a great number to see. That would be interesting

Graph the last 5 years and see what trends show up.
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peelout 8/22/2013 9:53am
8/22/2013 9:53am
JW381 wrote:
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs? KTM is new to the street...
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs?

KTM is new to the street bike gig, but for the most part they're strictly dirt bike, which is why I agree with the OP that they're on track to be the dominate presence in dirtbike disciplines (not necessarily in sales, but that too probably).
peelout wrote:
bro, i went to some free concert series at a ski resort around here last weekend and rode up on my Yamaha 1300. as we were...
bro, i went to some free concert series at a ski resort around here last weekend and rode up on my Yamaha 1300. as we were getting off the bikes and doing up saddlebags and shit, up rolls this sexy KTM supermotard with dual exhaust coming out the back and an equally whorish Ducati in the same group. i went from six o'clock to straight up noon in about 4 seconds.

wish i woulda got a picture of those sexy little sluts
Arkmx wrote:
. One of these Peelout? Lost it's link.... Here's another photo. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/08/22/29643/s1200_2011_ktm_supermoto_r_01.jpg[/img] .
.

One of these Peelout?

Lost it's link.... Here's another photo.




.
EXACTLY!

except this one was Orange and White, sooooo badass!
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Xeno 8/22/2013 9:54am
8/22/2013 9:54am
JW381 wrote:
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs? KTM is new to the street...
Care to elaborate on this figure? Honda has street bikes, cruisers, and scooters in their lineup. Does this include ATVs?

KTM is new to the street bike gig, but for the most part they're strictly dirt bike, which is why I agree with the OP that they're on track to be the dominate presence in dirtbike disciplines (not necessarily in sales, but that too probably).
You can see the stats on the Motorcycle Industry Council website.
Global sales of scooters and cheapo motorcycles make up a large portion of that 15.5 million for Honda. But KTM also sells a lot of lesser-priced bikes in India through their partnership with Raj.

Bottom line in the U.S. off-road market: KTM is growing its share of a shrinking market- a market that is pretty small (yet still significant) in a global sense.

Post a reply to: Looks like KTM is going....