Helmet Cam not allowed

Chili
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3/19/2013 7:43am
DC wrote:
Let me take a crack at this... The challenge is the fact that GoPro likely had an exclusive helmet-cam/POV contract with the series that does not...
Let me take a crack at this...

The challenge is the fact that GoPro likely had an exclusive helmet-cam/POV contract with the series that does not allow any other cameras to be displayed on the athletes, let alone the footage used. It has nothing to do with the quality of the product, but a pre-existing contract with obligations to the promoter. The teams can display whatever logos they want on the side of the shrouds, tanks, jerseys, trucks, or pits, be it a video camera logo (but not the camera itself) or an energy drink or goggles, oil, casual wear, whatever.

But on the track, the series has deals in place and you won't see Rockstar or Red Bull or any other energy drink anywhere but on the riders clothes or on the side of the bikes. The same goes for outdoors, and the same goes for GPs, I am guessing. Riders can wear stickers on their bikes or helmets, or in their pits and on the podium, but you won't see them anywhere else on or around the track.

Helmet cams are rapidly evolving products that are growing in popularity and applications, but that wasn't the case a few years again when GoPro was the first to really get into the sport. They are not "necessary," so a rider wearing one on his helmet is different than using a different oil than the series sponsor or riding a different bike. Maybe that will change as the products usage evolves, but they still can't be worn on helmets until the current contract is finished.

And before you throw the NASCAR model out at this, all of those cameras inside cars are series-related, not just what the teams want to wear. And NASCAR is very strict about the usage.

The funny thing about all of this is that I used to wear the helmet cam when I was the pit reporter on TV because no actual racer would wear the thing (it was much heavier and required a back pack for the batteries and recorder). Now they are so small and light, and the ability to post online or on Facebook or wherever has so completely changed, everyone wants to wear one.

DC
MX Sports
It could be argued a helmet cam is a part of the equipment nowadays, if so where is the line drawn? Can the promoter now make a deal for an exclusive gear sponsor so all riders that don't want to ride naked need to be in Brand X gear?
toomey706
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3/19/2013 8:07am
A camera is unique in that it is not a performance product and in this instance, its not the camera in question but what is taken by the camera. Just as the rights to the events are "held", the footage from a camera also falls under the same contractual rights to the promoter to be controlled at their discretion. You cannot go into a Fled event and film for commercial purposes without written authorization. The footage take from any device on the track is actually owned by the promoter unless expressly authorized for specific applications, so restricting or in this case allowing only GoPro to film is actually right which was exclusively purchased and authorized by the promoter. It goes back to the Napster thing regarding rights and ownership of certain properties, tangible or intangible. Its the rights in question not the equipment, but they go hand in hand.
TerryK
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3/19/2013 9:03am Edited Date/Time 3/19/2013 9:05am
Try bringing a video camera to the front row at the next Stones concert you attend. (phones don't count) I'm guessing your feet wont touch the ground on your way out and when they finally hit the sidewalk outside you'll be one camera lighter.
mattmatt300
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3/19/2013 9:22am
every day I get closer and closer to dropping $300 for one of those gopro's. They are straight up bad ass.
Do it. I just got the new Hero 3 Black and it is awesome. The quality is ridiculous and the chest mount is perfect for moto and cycling/mountain biking, which is why GoPro was the only option for me. Choosing White, Silver, or Black was the hardest decision but I'm glad I spent the extra on the Black.

The Shop

WSR
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3/19/2013 9:33am
DC's post makes some sense, but the facts are hypocritical. You can wear what you want on your gear or bike, but not a camera? They don't want to spread them around the stadium, just wear them. Something smells fishy here. So fact is, the Nascar effect is starting to show up in MX. Maybe they will all have to ride the bike of tomorrow soon too.
3/19/2013 9:45am
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to improve line choice, technique and more, but if you're not a GoPro athlete you do not have that luxury. That would be my only beef with the rule. It seems like a advantage is being gained there. It may be a minute advantage, but you can't argue that studying your GoPro footage doesn't help a little.

That may be the angle I would take if I was arguing the other side. Wink
yak651
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Fantasy
3/19/2013 10:08am
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to...
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to improve line choice, technique and more, but if you're not a GoPro athlete you do not have that luxury. That would be my only beef with the rule. It seems like a advantage is being gained there. It may be a minute advantage, but you can't argue that studying your GoPro footage doesn't help a little.

That may be the angle I would take if I was arguing the other side. Wink
I agree 10x, I can see not allowing them to post the video on a website, but not being able to use a camera if you aren't a GoPro sponsored rider goes to far. Neck braces haven't been proven a necessary item, if Leatt jumps on to sponsor the series you can't wear an EVS or other brace???
Titan1
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3/19/2013 10:45am
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to...
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to improve line choice, technique and more, but if you're not a GoPro athlete you do not have that luxury. That would be my only beef with the rule. It seems like a advantage is being gained there. It may be a minute advantage, but you can't argue that studying your GoPro footage doesn't help a little.

That may be the angle I would take if I was arguing the other side. Wink
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal use any different than having a team member up in the cheap seats with a video camera video taping the team rider during practice/heat/main and then studying the footage later to improve rider/bike performance?
Falcon
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3/19/2013 11:09am Edited Date/Time 3/19/2013 11:11am
I call BS. Any agreement that GoPro has with Feld applies only to those two entities and not to the riders and teams themselves, who can negotiate their own sponsorship agreements. Unless there is something in the AMA competition rulebook that states "Riders may not wear a personal video device of any brand other than GoPro," then Muscle Milk Honda should tell Feld to get bent and run the cameras anyway. If Team Honda broadcast the footage or had any other kind of copyright infringement, that's another thing altogether; but for logo advertisement and private use, any brand should be allowed.
Feld may own the property rights for "Supercross" and all that OFFICIALLY happens within, but they do not own the rights that the individual competitors enjoy.

I seriously doubt that Feld and GoPro's stance would hold up in court if it ever came to that.
Chili
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3/19/2013 11:16am Edited Date/Time 3/19/2013 11:17am
TerryK wrote:
Try bringing a video camera to the front row at the next Stones concert you attend. (phones don't count) I'm guessing your feet wont touch the...
Try bringing a video camera to the front row at the next Stones concert you attend. (phones don't count) I'm guessing your feet wont touch the ground on your way out and when they finally hit the sidewalk outside you'll be one camera lighter.
No one is talking about fans, pretty sure if Keith Richards wanted to haul a Nikon onstage it would happen regardless if the promoter had an exclusive contract for their photographers to use Canon.

Also for the person mentioning it's not the camera but the product taken, that's not the case the team can not wear their own camera for them to use the footage without distribution.
3/19/2013 11:24am
Don't worry guys, we will still have a Dirt Shark video every week!
3/19/2013 11:26am
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to...
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to improve line choice, technique and more, but if you're not a GoPro athlete you do not have that luxury. That would be my only beef with the rule. It seems like a advantage is being gained there. It may be a minute advantage, but you can't argue that studying your GoPro footage doesn't help a little.

That may be the angle I would take if I was arguing the other side. Wink
Titan1 wrote:
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal...
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal use any different than having a team member up in the cheap seats with a video camera video taping the team rider during practice/heat/main and then studying the footage later to improve rider/bike performance?
First thing I want to say is, I have no idea if riders even have access to their helmet cam footage to study before the night show. So this whole angle is out the window if they don't.

But Titan, being a rider you know the answer to your question. It's night and day what you see from a basic video to what you see from a helmet cam perspective. You can see how specific ruts are forming and make later line choices based on what you saw developing in your helmet cam. You can also see exactly where kickers are forming in specific lines and a lot more

Like I said, the advantages are minute, but advantages none the less. I didn't say I thought it was a great argument, I just said IF I was to argue the other side, that may be the angle I would take. I even threw the patented Wink in to signify it just being a angle. Haha!

Bottom line is, if you have both POV and film from the stands you definitely have more data to study. And when fighting for 10ths anything helps.
Titan1
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3/19/2013 11:30am
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to...
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to improve line choice, technique and more, but if you're not a GoPro athlete you do not have that luxury. That would be my only beef with the rule. It seems like a advantage is being gained there. It may be a minute advantage, but you can't argue that studying your GoPro footage doesn't help a little.

That may be the angle I would take if I was arguing the other side. Wink
Titan1 wrote:
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal...
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal use any different than having a team member up in the cheap seats with a video camera video taping the team rider during practice/heat/main and then studying the footage later to improve rider/bike performance?
First thing I want to say is, I have no idea if riders even have access to their helmet cam footage to study before the night...
First thing I want to say is, I have no idea if riders even have access to their helmet cam footage to study before the night show. So this whole angle is out the window if they don't.

But Titan, being a rider you know the answer to your question. It's night and day what you see from a basic video to what you see from a helmet cam perspective. You can see how specific ruts are forming and make later line choices based on what you saw developing in your helmet cam. You can also see exactly where kickers are forming in specific lines and a lot more

Like I said, the advantages are minute, but advantages none the less. I didn't say I thought it was a great argument, I just said IF I was to argue the other side, that may be the angle I would take. I even threw the patented Wink in to signify it just being a angle. Haha!

Bottom line is, if you have both POV and film from the stands you definitely have more data to study. And when fighting for 10ths anything helps.
I agree with you across the board.

My point was that I don't see much difference between we POV camera and a video camera in the stands. Both record "supercross footage", and both can be used to improve performance (be in minutely). If the cameras in the stands are allowed why aren't POV cameras?
3/19/2013 11:51am
Titan1 wrote:
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal...
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal use any different than having a team member up in the cheap seats with a video camera video taping the team rider during practice/heat/main and then studying the footage later to improve rider/bike performance?
First thing I want to say is, I have no idea if riders even have access to their helmet cam footage to study before the night...
First thing I want to say is, I have no idea if riders even have access to their helmet cam footage to study before the night show. So this whole angle is out the window if they don't.

But Titan, being a rider you know the answer to your question. It's night and day what you see from a basic video to what you see from a helmet cam perspective. You can see how specific ruts are forming and make later line choices based on what you saw developing in your helmet cam. You can also see exactly where kickers are forming in specific lines and a lot more

Like I said, the advantages are minute, but advantages none the less. I didn't say I thought it was a great argument, I just said IF I was to argue the other side, that may be the angle I would take. I even threw the patented Wink in to signify it just being a angle. Haha!

Bottom line is, if you have both POV and film from the stands you definitely have more data to study. And when fighting for 10ths anything helps.
Titan1 wrote:
I agree with you across the board. My point was that I don't see much difference between we POV camera and a video camera in the...
I agree with you across the board.

My point was that I don't see much difference between we POV camera and a video camera in the stands. Both record "supercross footage", and both can be used to improve performance (be in minutely). If the cameras in the stands are allowed why aren't POV cameras?
Ah, I now see what you were asking, and I do not have your answer. Other than GoPro paid a lot of money to make sure only their cams are seen on top of a SX-MX riders head.

I see where the promoters are coming from, and I can only say GoPro has capitalized on the system via big check. I also see where GoPro is coming from. They created the action cam market in MX-SX, At least what it is today, and they spent a ton of money to do it. I would be hell-bent on keeping other camera's out and protecting my investment if GoPro was my company. I would also be fighting to get in if I was the competition.

I also think the sport and the fans have benefited a lot because of GoPro's investment in it, so it's tough to be mad at them. I would never know what it's like to race and win a National or SX main event from start to finish if it wasn't for them. I have talked to a a lot of people, including my kids 10 yr friend just yesterday, that only know about MX because of GoPro vids.
zehn
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3/19/2013 12:02pm
Falcon wrote:
I call BS. Any agreement that GoPro has with Feld applies only to those two entities and not to the riders and teams themselves, who can...
I call BS. Any agreement that GoPro has with Feld applies only to those two entities and not to the riders and teams themselves, who can negotiate their own sponsorship agreements. Unless there is something in the AMA competition rulebook that states "Riders may not wear a personal video device of any brand other than GoPro," then Muscle Milk Honda should tell Feld to get bent and run the cameras anyway. If Team Honda broadcast the footage or had any other kind of copyright infringement, that's another thing altogether; but for logo advertisement and private use, any brand should be allowed.
Feld may own the property rights for "Supercross" and all that OFFICIALLY happens within, but they do not own the rights that the individual competitors enjoy.

I seriously doubt that Feld and GoPro's stance would hold up in court if it ever came to that.
The riders and teams agree to operate under the rules and regulations set forth by Feld and the promoters. That's just how it is.

Sponsorship agreements are a totally different animal.

By agreeing to operate under the agreed upon rules and regulations, the teams and riders are by nature consenting to any contractual obligations that Feld/the promoters create. Their stance would absolutely hold up in court, and I guarantee their is some waiver that must be signed before teams/riders are allowed to compete that states exactly that.
Falcon
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3/19/2013 12:37pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2013 12:37pm
Zehn I like your argument but I think it is flawed from the perspective of precedent. Other posters have mentioned it in not so many words; if competing brands for the title sponsor are allowed inside the stadium on the bodies of the competitors, then it is demonstrably unfair to disallow other camera brands under the same conditions. That's the angle I'd take if I were a lawyer in court for the competing camera brand.
Teams and riders are held to the agreed upon rules and regulations of the sanctioning body and promoter as a condition of participation, true. But those rules must be consistent across the board and in this case they are not.

BTW, I think GoPro makes an incredible product and I love that brand. They don't need to stoop to exclusionary tactics to maintain their competitive edge.
zehn
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3/19/2013 1:00pm
Falcon wrote:
Zehn I like your argument but I think it is flawed from the perspective of precedent. Other posters have mentioned it in not so many words...
Zehn I like your argument but I think it is flawed from the perspective of precedent. Other posters have mentioned it in not so many words; if competing brands for the title sponsor are allowed inside the stadium on the bodies of the competitors, then it is demonstrably unfair to disallow other camera brands under the same conditions. That's the angle I'd take if I were a lawyer in court for the competing camera brand.
Teams and riders are held to the agreed upon rules and regulations of the sanctioning body and promoter as a condition of participation, true. But those rules must be consistent across the board and in this case they are not.

BTW, I think GoPro makes an incredible product and I love that brand. They don't need to stoop to exclusionary tactics to maintain their competitive edge.
I don't think you're wrong, but all we have to work with is what DC said.

Having logos/stickers on the bikes and riders and cans of Red Bull on the podium is different from what is actually happening on the track. You can advertise another product, but when it comes to racing, only GoPros can be used as helmet cams.

As a future law student I don't know much about contract law, but what I do know is that they are legally binding documents that hold a lot of weight in court. If you were arguing for the use of other cameras, you would have to prove that disallowing the use of other cameras/brands is highly detrimental to the riders. There may be a case to be made there, but it would be difficult.

Somewhere in that waiver/contract it must state that GoPro has exclusive rights for use of helmet cams and footage on and off the track. Nobody holds exclusive rights to sponsorships or advertisement, because no rider or company would agree to that, which allows other companies to advertise their products through logos, etc.

I don't necessarily agree with other cameras being disallowed, but those are the rules of the game. Yes, it does seem unfair, but until challenged it will just continue to be that way until a new contract is written.
mxjef
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3/19/2013 3:52pm
Here is my take on exclusive sponsorship.

I can't remember the last time I drank an energy drink but I am so over seeing Monster plastered over everything at SX that if I did choose to drink one, it would be a Red Bull.
I think the whole Monster thing at SX is an overload, actually it was kind of refreshing to not see it at Daytona!
As far as the Go Pro deal, I would definitely choose a different brand now after hearing about this bullshit.
zookrider62!
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3/19/2013 4:40pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2013 4:40pm
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to...
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to improve line choice, technique and more, but if you're not a GoPro athlete you do not have that luxury. That would be my only beef with the rule. It seems like a advantage is being gained there. It may be a minute advantage, but you can't argue that studying your GoPro footage doesn't help a little.

That may be the angle I would take if I was arguing the other side. Wink
My understanding is that the teams are not allowed to view the footage, it belongs to Go Pro and is for their use only, which is way you will see the officials take Go Pros off of privateers helmets from time to time
mattmatt300
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3/19/2013 5:20pm
mxjef wrote:
Here is my take on exclusive sponsorship. I can't remember the last time I drank an energy drink but I am so over seeing Monster plastered...
Here is my take on exclusive sponsorship.

I can't remember the last time I drank an energy drink but I am so over seeing Monster plastered over everything at SX that if I did choose to drink one, it would be a Red Bull.
I think the whole Monster thing at SX is an overload, actually it was kind of refreshing to not see it at Daytona!
As far as the Go Pro deal, I would definitely choose a different brand now after hearing about this bullshit.
So you choose to purposely not support the companies that sponsor the series?
3/19/2013 5:34pm
We can't expect the sport to grow if stuff like this continues to happen. Why would anyone want to sponsor a rider/team if there product can't be shown?
3/19/2013 7:03pm
@espionage - Spot on. That's what I'm trying to say. Other companies aren't going to want to jump in and sponsor anyone if there isn't any exposure to their company/brand/product. Not sure why the AMA or Feld are ok with making rules that discourage any outside sponsors from putting their advertising dollars in SX.
Mr. Info
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3/19/2013 8:57pm
Guys remember back a few years ago in Nascar when there was a team sponsered by Verizon. And they were told Sprint was coming in to sponser Nascar and no other cell phone compaines could sponser a team because they had exclusive rights. So at the chance of losing a team Nascar took the money from Sprint and the team had to find a new sponser. Money talks louder then anything else. And those receiving the money would sell anything to get it. Thats business now a days. Shame one Monster, Red Bull or Rockstar leave the sport its going to die and go back to being what it is a sport not a business. Its funny years ago we had works bikes costing $100,000.00 and 3 to 4 or more riders on a team and they all made good money. Now the teams have 2 riders and 20,000.00 bike and riders making money all over the range but the promoters making millions. Sure purse money has gone up a little but where is all the rest of the money. I hope soon it all works out good for everyone. But TV has not brought in millions of dollars from new business, or millions of new people getting into the sport. It allows those on the east to see whats happining on the west and visa versa. Its a sport watched by mainly those who are in it or those that were and like to keep in touch. And if someone can prove me wrong then I will admit it. Its no different than this web site, its for people who love the sport not for those who know nothing about it.
wardy
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3/19/2013 9:24pm
Hell maybe they should make them all wear the same sponsors, cover up all the riders sponsors logos and such? you know like bibs?

Tongue
markit
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3/20/2013 4:33am
Whats so coo about riding around with a toaster oven on top of your helmet anywhoo? Kinda like the flat bill crap.imo
mellonhs
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3/20/2013 5:08am
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to...
My only issue is this. So James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, Davi Millsaps, and all the GoPro athletes have the luxury of studying their GoPro footage to improve line choice, technique and more, but if you're not a GoPro athlete you do not have that luxury. That would be my only beef with the rule. It seems like a advantage is being gained there. It may be a minute advantage, but you can't argue that studying your GoPro footage doesn't help a little.

That may be the angle I would take if I was arguing the other side. Wink
Titan1 wrote:
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal...
I mentioned this earlier in the thread...but how is a rider wearing a helmet cam and using the footage from the helmet camera for ONLY team/personal use any different than having a team member up in the cheap seats with a video camera video taping the team rider during practice/heat/main and then studying the footage later to improve rider/bike performance?
First thing I want to say is, I have no idea if riders even have access to their helmet cam footage to study before the night...
First thing I want to say is, I have no idea if riders even have access to their helmet cam footage to study before the night show. So this whole angle is out the window if they don't.

But Titan, being a rider you know the answer to your question. It's night and day what you see from a basic video to what you see from a helmet cam perspective. You can see how specific ruts are forming and make later line choices based on what you saw developing in your helmet cam. You can also see exactly where kickers are forming in specific lines and a lot more

Like I said, the advantages are minute, but advantages none the less. I didn't say I thought it was a great argument, I just said IF I was to argue the other side, that may be the angle I would take. I even threw the patented Wink in to signify it just being a angle. Haha!

Bottom line is, if you have both POV and film from the stands you definitely have more data to study. And when fighting for 10ths anything helps.
Yes... They have access to it. After each heat race JS7s right hand man downloads the content to his laptop then GoPro takes thefcamera back to the rig to upload the heat race.

But I didn't know they had a monopoly like this. And like everyone has stated its bullshit and they wonder why no other sponsors are clawing at the door of this sport.
Moto_Geek
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3/20/2013 8:15am
Wind drag problems?
Torco1
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3/20/2013 9:27am
Crush wrote:
hahaha... You guys remember the blurry red bull logo on Travis?
GuyB wrote:
From what I understand, Travis was asked to not wear that particular hat, but did anyway.
Crush wrote:
Although I find it amazing, isn't it pretty well normal practice over there?

Whenever I see a Yankie reality show on tv here, everything is blurry!
Maybe you just need glasses......Tongue
ocscottie
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3/20/2013 12:06pm
mxjef wrote:
Here is my take on exclusive sponsorship. I can't remember the last time I drank an energy drink but I am so over seeing Monster plastered...
Here is my take on exclusive sponsorship.

I can't remember the last time I drank an energy drink but I am so over seeing Monster plastered over everything at SX that if I did choose to drink one, it would be a Red Bull.
I think the whole Monster thing at SX is an overload, actually it was kind of refreshing to not see it at Daytona!
As far as the Go Pro deal, I would definitely choose a different brand now after hearing about this bullshit.
"...if I did choose to drink one, it would be a Red Bull."

That just because you have good taste Jeff. Laughing
mxjef
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3/20/2013 6:17pm
mxjef wrote:
Here is my take on exclusive sponsorship. I can't remember the last time I drank an energy drink but I am so over seeing Monster plastered...
Here is my take on exclusive sponsorship.

I can't remember the last time I drank an energy drink but I am so over seeing Monster plastered over everything at SX that if I did choose to drink one, it would be a Red Bull.
I think the whole Monster thing at SX is an overload, actually it was kind of refreshing to not see it at Daytona!
As far as the Go Pro deal, I would definitely choose a different brand now after hearing about this bullshit.
So you choose to purposely not support the companies that sponsor the series?
I would support a sponsor even if I didn't like their product, IF they were supporters of our sport and NOT just out to take control of our sport.

Can you see the difference?

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