RX article concerning flaggers...

kongols
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kongols 3/3/2013 9:03pm
3/3/2013 9:03pm
40Plus_922mx
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40Plus_922mx 3/3/2013 9:04pm
3/3/2013 9:04pm
The bummer here is that Stewart was doing the right thing by complying with not one but TWO red cross flags in that section. RV had already been busted once during the race and got the lame 3 place deduction (which always is tabulated at the end of the race). Whether or not it is thought that RV woulda still won has zero bearing.

After the finish RV shoulda been sent back to 3rd for violation number 1. Then we wouldn't even be talking about violation number two.
kongols
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kongols 3/3/2013 9:06pm
3/3/2013 9:06pm
At least last year they said he was committed, this year they act like red cross flag is a haybale cover.
TDeath21
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TDeath21 3/3/2013 9:18pm
3/3/2013 9:18pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Just throwing an idea out right here. How about we get a different colored flag than all the rest that signifies the end of the danger...
Just throwing an idea out right here. How about we get a different colored flag than all the rest that signifies the end of the danger section and it's now okay to pass? That would end all controversy as to if it were legal or not. It's not illegal to gain on a rider during a red cross section. It's just illegal to pass. I don't know if this idea would work either, but it's a thought. As it is right now, there is no black and white rule that says when you can pass again. It's all rider judgement, which is impossible to penalize.
dak446 wrote:
The 'flag' that signifies the end of the danger section is the downed rider. The riders are not supposed to 'race' past downed riders in this...
The 'flag' that signifies the end of the danger section is the downed rider. The riders are not supposed to 'race' past downed riders in this situation, and racing is supposed to resume AFTER the downed rider has been cleared. There is no reason to have a different color flag.

What happened on the track Saturday night was clearly wrong (on two occasions), and the parties in charge of doling out penalties were asleep at the wheel. This should be a rider safety issue first and foremost, and it's turned in to a 'as long as you're in title contention, you can do what you like' issue. It's sad that this is even an argument being made at the professional level, and the AMA should be ashamed of the way they handled this (and other) similar situations.
He passed him after they were past Kiniry. So that argument is out the door. The red cross flag needs to be in the middle of the track where it's clearly visible. This way it forced them to be one lined and you can't pass.

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TDeath21
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TDeath21 3/3/2013 9:19pm
3/3/2013 9:19pm
kongols wrote:
At least last year they said he was committed, this year they act like red cross flag is a haybale cover.
It's just so comical to see your extremely biased input in every thread involving Stewart or Villopoto. Keep it up.
Motodude
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Motodude 3/3/2013 9:20pm
3/3/2013 9:20pm
I told you guys RV wont be penalized because he's the #1 munster liquid dude. Looking at the pics I would say he's passing under the yellow, so DQ him for negligent and unsafe riding.
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jl0822 3/3/2013 9:22pm
3/3/2013 9:22pm
40Plus_922mx wrote:
The bummer here is that Stewart was doing the right thing by complying with not one but TWO red cross flags in that section. RV had...
The bummer here is that Stewart was doing the right thing by complying with not one but TWO red cross flags in that section. RV had already been busted once during the race and got the lame 3 place deduction (which always is tabulated at the end of the race). Whether or not it is thought that RV woulda still won has zero bearing.

After the finish RV shoulda been sent back to 3rd for violation number 1. Then we wouldn't even be talking about violation number two.
^^^
what he said,
kongols
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kongols 3/3/2013 9:24pm
3/3/2013 9:24pm
kongols
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kongols 3/3/2013 9:26pm
3/3/2013 9:26pm
Red cross flag rules says roll the jumps and no passing. Rv made a pass on a last roller.
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dak446 3/3/2013 9:29pm
3/3/2013 9:29pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Just throwing an idea out right here. How about we get a different colored flag than all the rest that signifies the end of the danger...
Just throwing an idea out right here. How about we get a different colored flag than all the rest that signifies the end of the danger section and it's now okay to pass? That would end all controversy as to if it were legal or not. It's not illegal to gain on a rider during a red cross section. It's just illegal to pass. I don't know if this idea would work either, but it's a thought. As it is right now, there is no black and white rule that says when you can pass again. It's all rider judgement, which is impossible to penalize.
dak446 wrote:
The 'flag' that signifies the end of the danger section is the downed rider. The riders are not supposed to 'race' past downed riders in this...
The 'flag' that signifies the end of the danger section is the downed rider. The riders are not supposed to 'race' past downed riders in this situation, and racing is supposed to resume AFTER the downed rider has been cleared. There is no reason to have a different color flag.

What happened on the track Saturday night was clearly wrong (on two occasions), and the parties in charge of doling out penalties were asleep at the wheel. This should be a rider safety issue first and foremost, and it's turned in to a 'as long as you're in title contention, you can do what you like' issue. It's sad that this is even an argument being made at the professional level, and the AMA should be ashamed of the way they handled this (and other) similar situations.
TDeath21 wrote:
He passed him after they were past Kiniry. So that argument is out the door. The red cross flag needs to be in the middle of...
He passed him after they were past Kiniry. So that argument is out the door. The red cross flag needs to be in the middle of the track where it's clearly visible. This way it forced them to be one lined and you can't pass.
Take a gander at the last pic Kongols just posted (I was in the process of finding one to demonstrate my point, so thanks Kongols). The lead pack was clearly not on the other side of the downed rider. So.......yeah, it doesn't get much more obvious than that.
Crush
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Crush 3/3/2013 9:32pm
3/3/2013 9:32pm
TDeath21 wrote:
I think you do need an end point. Theoretically, once you're about ten feet away from the area of concern, you're basically in the clear. Is...
I think you do need an end point. Theoretically, once you're about ten feet away from the area of concern, you're basically in the clear. Is it when you both completely pass the downed rider? Is it when the section ends? It's not explained clearly. Yes common sense tells you whenever they're past the downed rider, but if that's the case, what Villopoto did was legal. Like I've said, according to the extremely gray and poorly worded AMA Rulebook, Villopoto is in the clear on this one. We can argue all we want about what we think should be right, but the only thing that matters is the official rules. That goes for everything in life.
Problem is an end point isn't practical...

You'd be trying to get them to do their job properly more than once... impossible!
kongols
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kongols 3/3/2013 9:39pm
3/3/2013 9:39pm
Crush
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Crush 3/3/2013 9:41pm
3/3/2013 9:41pm
I don't see how anything can think that Kiniry being either up, away from the inside, etc is relevant...

They are variables... There should have been no passing because the red cross flag was out, until the danger section, where the rider was down, was passed. ie after the corner... not in it or before the apex as it was.
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Ripper02 3/3/2013 9:44pm
3/3/2013 9:44pm
Red cross should have never been out in the first place. Especially for that period of time. I mean Kiniry was already ready to take off again.
kongols
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kongols 3/3/2013 9:45pm
3/3/2013 9:45pm
Flagers did everything correctly, there was two red cross flags, one before the big triple and one before set of rollers. Villopoto made a pass on a last roller clearly braking the rules. #MONSTERSHOW.


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bns99121 3/3/2013 9:55pm
3/3/2013 9:55pm
Ripper02 wrote:
Red cross should have never been out in the first place. Especially for that period of time. I mean Kiniry was already ready to take off...
Red cross should have never been out in the first place. Especially for that period of time. I mean Kiniry was already ready to take off again.
I agree with that. It probably wasn't necessary but mistake or not the flag was out and it should have been adhered to. End of story.
Xavier
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Xavier 3/3/2013 9:58pm
3/3/2013 9:58pm Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 9:59pm
This reminds me about the "going-full-on-when-you're-off-the-track" thingy...

The rulebook is too flexible / lets too much room for interpretation on the rider's part / is'nt enforced strictly enough.

They both had Go-Pro's, I wonder if they reviewed that ?!
MotoFreak2772
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MotoFreak2772 3/3/2013 10:06pm
3/3/2013 10:06pm
They were putting up the flags just as RV makes the pass but that should have nothing to do with following the rules. Even if no rider is down and a red cross flag or light is accidentally displayed they still need to follow the rules and roll anyways.
The speed in a red flag section is really determined by the person in front of you. If stewart came to a 5mph roll, that should technically force everyone behind him to do the same and as racers they should understand that that's just how it goes with red cross flags. Disregarding that and trying to advance a position just shows no concern for the safety of your fellow riders and disrespect to the rules of the sport.
Other sports are so official and technical with all their rules. I feel like by now the ama would try to do the same thing but I guess not.

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FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 3/3/2013 10:08pm
3/3/2013 10:08pm
kongols wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/www.amasupercross.com_rules_pdf_AMA_SupercrossRulebook13_web.pdf_50495.png[/img]
The problem is, in my recollection, that the yellow was out before the one in your pic, and the rules say you can pass under yellow. Now, I have a problem understanding the "area of concern" being past if they are still waving yellow flags, but these guys have it ingrained in them that they can pass when they see yellow.
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kongols 3/3/2013 10:14pm
3/3/2013 10:14pm
FreshTopEnd wrote:
The problem is, in my recollection, that the yellow was out before the one in your pic, and the rules say you can pass under yellow...
The problem is, in my recollection, that the yellow was out before the one in your pic, and the rules say you can pass under yellow. Now, I have a problem understanding the "area of concern" being past if they are still waving yellow flags, but these guys have it ingrained in them that they can pass when they see yellow.
Then they should read the rule book on where red cross flag is displayed.
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burn1986 3/3/2013 10:15pm
3/3/2013 10:15pm
Oh come on, RV knew what he was doom and he got away with it.
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kongols 3/3/2013 10:19pm
3/3/2013 10:19pm
Did they file an appeal to a Stewards panel? GuyB?
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wardy 3/3/2013 10:29pm
3/3/2013 10:29pm Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 10:35pm
Funny I see a Yellow flag being waved.


and a red cross flag kinda held out there.. no matter.


it's simple.

1. do away with the red cross flag next year. and only have a yellow flag with the same meaning as nascrap has.
2. No confusion. a yellow flag waves you slow your asss down no jumping no passing.
3. violation of this flag is position issue DURING the race, black flag the rider, pull them over for a 10 sec penalty.
4. Second violation of the yellow flag he is dsq.
5. HIRE and have certified qualified flaggers. not volunteers for a tshirt and a hot dog.
(i am sure these flaggers are good guys/gals, but training for a few minutes prior to sending them out on the track should be a little more then that. This is the top and most professional part of the sport correct?

I am sure these are all factors that could be worked on. Now i am not sure but if you have ANY kind of flag in your hand, you should have a radio headset on, with a "head" flagger who is watching the whole race to keep things orgainized.....

Not sure who is in charge of this process, but since this seems to be an issue every year, maybe some better planning on all parts would be a good idea.

How it affects everyone else? LIttle johnny racing local abc raceway see's his hero's "racing on yellow" thinks it's a good idea at home to do it. Then little johnny's dad gets all po'd because johnny got docked a lap.

The example we have today with multiple flags I just don't agree with. I just think it's nuts to wave a yellow flag but allow a rider to triple 80 some feet at the same time..........


Or better yet. Let the riders wear a radio / ear piece so they can be told where a rider is down and what to expect. they should have this kind of help since they are risking so much going over these obstacles like they are.
TDeath21
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TDeath21 3/3/2013 10:31pm
3/3/2013 10:31pm
dak446 wrote:
The 'flag' that signifies the end of the danger section is the downed rider. The riders are not supposed to 'race' past downed riders in this...
The 'flag' that signifies the end of the danger section is the downed rider. The riders are not supposed to 'race' past downed riders in this situation, and racing is supposed to resume AFTER the downed rider has been cleared. There is no reason to have a different color flag.

What happened on the track Saturday night was clearly wrong (on two occasions), and the parties in charge of doling out penalties were asleep at the wheel. This should be a rider safety issue first and foremost, and it's turned in to a 'as long as you're in title contention, you can do what you like' issue. It's sad that this is even an argument being made at the professional level, and the AMA should be ashamed of the way they handled this (and other) similar situations.
TDeath21 wrote:
He passed him after they were past Kiniry. So that argument is out the door. The red cross flag needs to be in the middle of...
He passed him after they were past Kiniry. So that argument is out the door. The red cross flag needs to be in the middle of the track where it's clearly visible. This way it forced them to be one lined and you can't pass.
dak446 wrote:
Take a gander at the last pic Kongols just posted (I was in the process of finding one to demonstrate my point, so thanks Kongols). The...
Take a gander at the last pic Kongols just posted (I was in the process of finding one to demonstrate my point, so thanks Kongols). The lead pack was clearly not on the other side of the downed rider. So.......yeah, it doesn't get much more obvious than that.
You come over a triple after rolling over all three jumps. There's one guy off the side of the track holding his red cross flag. There's three others in the middle of the track waving their yellow flags furiously. Which one is going to draw your attention? Keep in mind these two were in a heated battle, and in Villopoto's mind, Stewart just passed him after the red lights. Of course we can always resort to the infamous still frame photo. They don't have that luxury. I don't feel there was enough on this instance to penalize Villopoto.
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dak446 3/3/2013 10:55pm
3/3/2013 10:55pm
TDeath21 wrote:
You come over a triple after rolling over all three jumps. There's one guy off the side of the track holding his red cross flag. There's...
You come over a triple after rolling over all three jumps. There's one guy off the side of the track holding his red cross flag. There's three others in the middle of the track waving their yellow flags furiously. Which one is going to draw your attention? Keep in mind these two were in a heated battle, and in Villopoto's mind, Stewart just passed him after the red lights. Of course we can always resort to the infamous still frame photo. They don't have that luxury. I don't feel there was enough on this instance to penalize Villopoto.
It's about safety. I don't want to argue technicalities with you, the video and photography only validates the argument that RV should have waited to attempt any pass.

The situation is this: The AMA needs to set a precedence that unsafe acts won't be allowed, regardless of your name/bike/sponsors/etc. God forbid something bad happens to a downed rider in a similar situation and blood is on the AMA's hands because riders don't take the rules seriously. They would likely reconsider their lackadaisical approach to enforcement. The riders/teams/public can preemptively avoid this situation by forcing the AMA to pay attention now, instead of after something bad that could be avoided occurs. Sure, in this instance everyone was fine and nobody was in danger, but it is a slippery slope.
Crush
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Crush 3/3/2013 11:07pm
3/3/2013 11:07pm
wardy wrote:
Funny I see a Yellow flag being waved. and a red cross flag kinda held out there.. no matter. it's simple. 1. do away with the...
Funny I see a Yellow flag being waved.


and a red cross flag kinda held out there.. no matter.


it's simple.

1. do away with the red cross flag next year. and only have a yellow flag with the same meaning as nascrap has.
2. No confusion. a yellow flag waves you slow your asss down no jumping no passing.
3. violation of this flag is position issue DURING the race, black flag the rider, pull them over for a 10 sec penalty.
4. Second violation of the yellow flag he is dsq.
5. HIRE and have certified qualified flaggers. not volunteers for a tshirt and a hot dog.
(i am sure these flaggers are good guys/gals, but training for a few minutes prior to sending them out on the track should be a little more then that. This is the top and most professional part of the sport correct?

I am sure these are all factors that could be worked on. Now i am not sure but if you have ANY kind of flag in your hand, you should have a radio headset on, with a "head" flagger who is watching the whole race to keep things orgainized.....

Not sure who is in charge of this process, but since this seems to be an issue every year, maybe some better planning on all parts would be a good idea.

How it affects everyone else? LIttle johnny racing local abc raceway see's his hero's "racing on yellow" thinks it's a good idea at home to do it. Then little johnny's dad gets all po'd because johnny got docked a lap.

The example we have today with multiple flags I just don't agree with. I just think it's nuts to wave a yellow flag but allow a rider to triple 80 some feet at the same time..........


Or better yet. Let the riders wear a radio / ear piece so they can be told where a rider is down and what to expect. they should have this kind of help since they are risking so much going over these obstacles like they are.
Pretty sensible...

Make it simple, make it known, and back it up
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MBR 3/3/2013 11:10pm
3/3/2013 11:10pm Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 11:14pm
kongols did you notice that there is yellow flag right after (less than a feet) medical flag? Maybe not the greatest place to have a yellow flag, but it's not RV's fault. So the "no pass zone" is just about a feet long and RV didn't pass until after that.
gt80rider
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gt80rider 3/3/2013 11:50pm
3/3/2013 11:50pm
we wouldn't even be having this convo if RV2 would just back off for the red cross flags like the other riders..

now, it looks like there will have to be rules written to designate how many feet before and after a red-cross to exclude passing and jumping... and... there will have to be two red-cross flags, one to start that area and one to end it... that is just freak'n insane...

oh and then there will be the real problem- enforcement... if they aren't enforced why make them at all....
Crush
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Crush 3/3/2013 11:54pm
3/3/2013 11:54pm
MBR wrote:
kongols did you notice that there is yellow flag right after (less than a feet) medical flag? Maybe not the greatest place to have a yellow...
kongols did you notice that there is yellow flag right after (less than a feet) medical flag? Maybe not the greatest place to have a yellow flag, but it's not RV's fault. So the "no pass zone" is just about a feet long and RV didn't pass until after that.
That is the technicality of the ruling, but it should be that the higher powered flag takes precedence...

Otherwise why have it...
gt80rider
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gt80rider 3/4/2013 12:00am
3/4/2013 12:00am
kongols wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/RV_pass_583692.png[/img]
how does RV2 know that red cross flag isn't for another downed rider immediately after the right hander???

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