Race gas and Wolf ignitions

FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd
Edited Date/Time 1/18/2013 10:39pm
The KTM 200 is about back together. Picked up a used Wolf programmable CDI a week or so ago. No manual, and I can't find anything about these on the web (generally and on KTMTalk). I guess there are 4 map options, two of which are on the CDI at a given time.

Can anyone tell me about these and where I might find some info on it? I gather I can plug and play with it as is, but I'm curious to know more. I currently have the stock XC cdi on there, and also a new 200SX cdi in the wings as well. I'd like to pick up a 150SX cdi, too, but haven't come across one and am not really wanting to pop full freight for a new one.

As well, my head is swimming with all the fuels VP offers. What is the basic fuel for two strokes that have not been modded through the roof?
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mxb2
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mxb2 1/17/2013 12:36pm
1/17/2013 12:36pm
C12 fuel 40:1 best 2 stroke combo. Different fuels different prices. Renegade makes a great race fuel.
JW381
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JW381 1/17/2013 2:21pm
1/17/2013 2:21pm
I know it's been discussed before, but what's the general consensus on leaded fuel? A gas station around the corner from me sells Sunoco leaded 112 octane (I believe it's 112) and I did a 50/50 mix with some premium. Is this bad, good, or should I be going a different route. I mixed 40:1 with Maxima.
scooter5002
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scooter5002 1/17/2013 2:54pm
1/17/2013 2:54pm
X2 on the C12. Great stuff, and all you need for a smoker. I use Klotz of the same octane, simply because the distributor is a friend of mine and lives 10 miles away.

JW, nothing wrong with what you are doing by mixing the two fuels. Assuming a 50/50 mix and your premium is a 92, you wind up with about 102 octane, less a little for what the oil kills off. If that's your budget, mix it and ride happily ever after.
JW381
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JW381 1/17/2013 3:07pm
1/17/2013 3:07pm
scooter5002 wrote:
X2 on the C12. Great stuff, and all you need for a smoker. I use Klotz of the same octane, simply because the distributor is a...
X2 on the C12. Great stuff, and all you need for a smoker. I use Klotz of the same octane, simply because the distributor is a friend of mine and lives 10 miles away.

JW, nothing wrong with what you are doing by mixing the two fuels. Assuming a 50/50 mix and your premium is a 92, you wind up with about 102 octane, less a little for what the oil kills off. If that's your budget, mix it and ride happily ever after.
Thanks Scooter. It's a stock CR250 engine, if my budget allows would I be better off to run a stronger blend of leaded race gas, or drop down to something along the lines of 100 Octane AV gas?

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DTHA70
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DTHA70 1/17/2013 3:12pm
1/17/2013 3:12pm
100LL avgas is nearly identical to C12, it has an anti congealing agent which wont affect you at all, it is extremely consistent and i trust it in my built RM (im an engine builder) and you can't argue with the cost. if it were in my budget, i would have MRX02 running through her, but 100LL avgas is just about as good for a quarter the price.
Motoxtombo
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Motoxtombo 1/17/2013 5:28pm
1/17/2013 5:28pm
I've run LL100 in every two stroke I've owned for the last 30 years Mike, it works awesome. DTHA70 posted alot of good info about AV gas. I run Maxima Super M at 50:1 ,I run AV gas in my lawn mover,leaf blower and chain saw too.
scooter5002
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scooter5002 1/17/2013 8:59pm
1/17/2013 8:59pm
I personally won't run AV gas, it's made for altitude and planes. That's just me, though. You can see other guys have other thoughts. You have to look in your wallet to make the decision. You'll gain a little horsepower running the race fuel too. A "pay as you go" engine mod. Cool
CamP
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CamP 1/17/2013 10:22pm
1/17/2013 10:22pm Edited Date/Time 1/17/2013 10:28pm
100LL is a good 2-stroke fuel and it's inexpensive. Here's a avgas finder that will show the cheapest prices in your area. http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

Sunoco Supreme 112 and C12 have very similar distillation curves and specific gravity, so they jet and run the same, but the Sunoco is a lot cheaper.

I run 100LL in all my 2-strokes, but the compression in my 07 CR250 is so high that I have to mix it with 50% race gas to keep it from pinging.
Travis_Hudson 1/17/2013 11:39pm
1/17/2013 11:39pm
I have been running that new vpr from vp straight. Bike seems to run well on it.
gyd58
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gyd58 1/18/2013 4:46am
1/18/2013 4:46am
Today I would run the Renegade SX2, it is leaded makes great power and works really well in high heat and humidity. Of the VP fuels starting with least expensive, VPR, U4.4 or MRX02.

Back when my son was on 125's we dynoed different fuel combos in both his stock and mod YZ 125s and straight C12 made less horsepower than 93 pump gas. Ended up using VP MRXo1, it was the best at the time. C12 mixed with 93 pump made more power than straight C12 and had better throttle response and was pretty cheap. We ran 50/50 mix C12 and 93 pump at Loretta's because VP MRX01 and U4 had issues back then when it got really hot and humid.

I am not a fuel expert but I do know that AV gas is not blended for motosports applications, it is blended for use in airplanes that spend most of their time at much higher altitudes and running at a constant rpm. Not what I would use in a two stroke race bike.
motofab36
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motofab36 1/18/2013 6:35am
1/18/2013 6:35am
Anyone using the Renegade? I placed a call just yesterday to VP and Renegade, I'm looking to stock some race fuel at my shop but I dont want to have to buy or stock alot. The VP guy was all over it and ready to start today, he faxed me some info (21 f'n pages!). But I'm waiting to here from the Renegade rep. I've heard good things about them.
CamP
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CamP 1/18/2013 8:28am
1/18/2013 8:28am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2013 8:35am
gyd58 wrote:
Today I would run the Renegade SX2, it is leaded makes great power and works really well in high heat and humidity. Of the VP fuels...
Today I would run the Renegade SX2, it is leaded makes great power and works really well in high heat and humidity. Of the VP fuels starting with least expensive, VPR, U4.4 or MRX02.

Back when my son was on 125's we dynoed different fuel combos in both his stock and mod YZ 125s and straight C12 made less horsepower than 93 pump gas. Ended up using VP MRXo1, it was the best at the time. C12 mixed with 93 pump made more power than straight C12 and had better throttle response and was pretty cheap. We ran 50/50 mix C12 and 93 pump at Loretta's because VP MRX01 and U4 had issues back then when it got really hot and humid.

I am not a fuel expert but I do know that AV gas is not blended for motosports applications, it is blended for use in airplanes that spend most of their time at much higher altitudes and running at a constant rpm. Not what I would use in a two stroke race bike.
Avgas is not blended for high altitude and constant rpm. That's an old wife's tale. Avgas is blended to prevent detonation in supercharged engines during take-off at sea level when they are at wide open throttle, and with a fully loaded aircraft. That's when the engines see their greatest loads, and prevention of detonation is most critical.
captmoto
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captmoto 1/18/2013 2:06pm
1/18/2013 2:06pm
CamP wrote:
100LL is a good 2-stroke fuel and it's inexpensive. Here's a avgas finder that will show the cheapest prices in your area. [url=http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html]http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html[/url] Sunoco Supreme 112...
100LL is a good 2-stroke fuel and it's inexpensive. Here's a avgas finder that will show the cheapest prices in your area. http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

Sunoco Supreme 112 and C12 have very similar distillation curves and specific gravity, so they jet and run the same, but the Sunoco is a lot cheaper.

I run 100LL in all my 2-strokes, but the compression in my 07 CR250 is so high that I have to mix it with 50% race gas to keep it from pinging.
So did you move beyond the .030 off the cylinder to bump compression or was the 100ll not cutting it? I'd like to do the mod but don't want to start chasing race gas around.
CamP
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CamP 1/18/2013 2:21pm
1/18/2013 2:21pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2013 4:34pm
CamP wrote:
100LL is a good 2-stroke fuel and it's inexpensive. Here's a avgas finder that will show the cheapest prices in your area. [url=http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html]http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html[/url] Sunoco Supreme 112...
100LL is a good 2-stroke fuel and it's inexpensive. Here's a avgas finder that will show the cheapest prices in your area. http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

Sunoco Supreme 112 and C12 have very similar distillation curves and specific gravity, so they jet and run the same, but the Sunoco is a lot cheaper.

I run 100LL in all my 2-strokes, but the compression in my 07 CR250 is so high that I have to mix it with 50% race gas to keep it from pinging.
captmoto wrote:
So did you move beyond the .030 off the cylinder to bump compression or was the 100ll not cutting it? I'd like to do the mod...
So did you move beyond the .030 off the cylinder to bump compression or was the 100ll not cutting it? I'd like to do the mod but don't want to start chasing race gas around.
When the temps got under 50, it started pinging a little in the mid throttle under heavy loads on sand tracks with straight 100LL. I raised the needle, which helped, but it needed a bit of race gas to clear it up. It runs clean with straight 100LL when the temps get over 50.

If you don't ride in sand during cold weather, I don't think you'll ever have an issue with straight 100LL after milling .030" off the base of your 05-07 CR250 cylinder. You can machine the head's chamber to increase the volume if you want to run lower grade fuel, but I like how it runs with the cranking pressure in the 235-240psi range. Eric Gorr will do the base and head machining for about $75.

My next modification will be raising the exhaust port .030-.040", which will improve over-rev. This will also lower the cranking pressure, but I won't know how much until I assemble the engine and test it. This will probably lower the octane requirement as well.
JW381
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JW381 1/18/2013 4:16pm
1/18/2013 4:16pm
gyd58 wrote:
Today I would run the Renegade SX2, it is leaded makes great power and works really well in high heat and humidity. Of the VP fuels...
Today I would run the Renegade SX2, it is leaded makes great power and works really well in high heat and humidity. Of the VP fuels starting with least expensive, VPR, U4.4 or MRX02.

Back when my son was on 125's we dynoed different fuel combos in both his stock and mod YZ 125s and straight C12 made less horsepower than 93 pump gas. Ended up using VP MRXo1, it was the best at the time. C12 mixed with 93 pump made more power than straight C12 and had better throttle response and was pretty cheap. We ran 50/50 mix C12 and 93 pump at Loretta's because VP MRX01 and U4 had issues back then when it got really hot and humid.

I am not a fuel expert but I do know that AV gas is not blended for motosports applications, it is blended for use in airplanes that spend most of their time at much higher altitudes and running at a constant rpm. Not what I would use in a two stroke race bike.
CamP wrote:
Avgas is not blended for high altitude and constant rpm. That's an old wife's tale. Avgas is blended to prevent detonation in supercharged engines during take-off...
Avgas is not blended for high altitude and constant rpm. That's an old wife's tale. Avgas is blended to prevent detonation in supercharged engines during take-off at sea level when they are at wide open throttle, and with a fully loaded aircraft. That's when the engines see their greatest loads, and prevention of detonation is most critical.
So, if I'm gathering what you're saying correctly, AVGas will help keep my motor from detonating? Is that more or less than Sunoco 112? I have an '04 engine, as you may know, so whatever will best help the longevity of my engine is probably what I'll run.
CamP
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CamP 1/18/2013 4:29pm
1/18/2013 4:29pm
JW381 wrote:
So, if I'm gathering what you're saying correctly, AVGas will help keep my motor from detonating? Is that more or less than Sunoco 112? I have...
So, if I'm gathering what you're saying correctly, AVGas will help keep my motor from detonating? Is that more or less than Sunoco 112? I have an '04 engine, as you may know, so whatever will best help the longevity of my engine is probably what I'll run.
100LL avgas has a R+M/2 octane rating of about 100 octane, so it can tolerate more compression than pump premium before detonation occurs. Sunoco Supreme can handle even higher compression because it has an octane rating of 112.

My experience is with the 05-07 CR250, which tends to ping on pump gas. Blending 100LL is a good option if your stock bike pings on pump gas. If you raise the compression slightly, straight 100LL works well. If you raise the compression a lot, then blending 100LL with high octane race gas, Like C12 or Sunoco 112, may be a cost effective solution to prevent detonation.
JW381
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JW381 1/18/2013 4:32pm
1/18/2013 4:32pm
Cool, I'm glad I have a resident CR expert to go to now that I'm a member of the CR club.

I think I'll try 100LL once I get everything running right.
mxb2
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mxb2 1/18/2013 5:12pm
1/18/2013 5:12pm
motofab36 wrote:
Anyone using the Renegade? I placed a call just yesterday to VP and Renegade, I'm looking to stock some race fuel at my shop but I...
Anyone using the Renegade? I placed a call just yesterday to VP and Renegade, I'm looking to stock some race fuel at my shop but I dont want to have to buy or stock alot. The VP guy was all over it and ready to start today, he faxed me some info (21 f'n pages!). But I'm waiting to here from the Renegade rep. I've heard good things about them.
Renegade is great stuff. Their service is excellent. But probably like vp the shipping fees kill ya. Unless you buy a pallet full of fuel. I think alot of dealers are afraid of being stuck with the fuel on the floor. I would go by how much demand riders are asking about the fuel. Renegade is not as known as much as vp.and imo its as good or better. I have used both.seems like vp is stocked more. Not sure who you dealt with at renegade but Beth and josh pitts were very helpful to me as well as chad sanner at 11/10 mods. Good luck keep me posted.

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slipdog
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slipdog 1/18/2013 5:50pm
1/18/2013 5:50pm
CamP wrote:
When the temps got under 50, it started pinging a little in the mid throttle under heavy loads on sand tracks with straight 100LL. I raised...
When the temps got under 50, it started pinging a little in the mid throttle under heavy loads on sand tracks with straight 100LL. I raised the needle, which helped, but it needed a bit of race gas to clear it up. It runs clean with straight 100LL when the temps get over 50.

If you don't ride in sand during cold weather, I don't think you'll ever have an issue with straight 100LL after milling .030" off the base of your 05-07 CR250 cylinder. You can machine the head's chamber to increase the volume if you want to run lower grade fuel, but I like how it runs with the cranking pressure in the 235-240psi range. Eric Gorr will do the base and head machining for about $75.

My next modification will be raising the exhaust port .030-.040", which will improve over-rev. This will also lower the cranking pressure, but I won't know how much until I assemble the engine and test it. This will probably lower the octane requirement as well.
FWIW, I've got an '02 CR that I took .040" off the base and raised the exhaust .040". With the squish @ .042" it had 265psi and couldn't take a 50/50 with premium & C12. I just relieved the head to .055" squish and blended an 8.5mm band to get down to 240psi and will test it this weekend with 100% C12.
motofab36
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motofab36 1/18/2013 6:40pm
1/18/2013 6:40pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2013 6:41pm
mxb2 wrote:
Renegade is great stuff. Their service is excellent. But probably like vp the shipping fees kill ya. Unless you buy a pallet full of fuel. I...
Renegade is great stuff. Their service is excellent. But probably like vp the shipping fees kill ya. Unless you buy a pallet full of fuel. I think alot of dealers are afraid of being stuck with the fuel on the floor. I would go by how much demand riders are asking about the fuel. Renegade is not as known as much as vp.and imo its as good or better. I have used both.seems like vp is stocked more. Not sure who you dealt with at renegade but Beth and josh pitts were very helpful to me as well as chad sanner at 11/10 mods. Good luck keep me posted.
I called Josh Pitts and left a message. I later went ahead and called the office number and talked to a lady who said she would give my info to the rep for my area but she said he was on his way to Tx. so might be after the weekend. Pitts is the tech guy appearently and is out of Cali but has a Ky. ph number.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 1/18/2013 6:53pm
1/18/2013 6:53pm
Thanks on the gas. Lot's of options.

Anyone have experience with the programmable Wolf ignitions?
CamP
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CamP 1/18/2013 6:55pm
1/18/2013 6:55pm
CamP wrote:
When the temps got under 50, it started pinging a little in the mid throttle under heavy loads on sand tracks with straight 100LL. I raised...
When the temps got under 50, it started pinging a little in the mid throttle under heavy loads on sand tracks with straight 100LL. I raised the needle, which helped, but it needed a bit of race gas to clear it up. It runs clean with straight 100LL when the temps get over 50.

If you don't ride in sand during cold weather, I don't think you'll ever have an issue with straight 100LL after milling .030" off the base of your 05-07 CR250 cylinder. You can machine the head's chamber to increase the volume if you want to run lower grade fuel, but I like how it runs with the cranking pressure in the 235-240psi range. Eric Gorr will do the base and head machining for about $75.

My next modification will be raising the exhaust port .030-.040", which will improve over-rev. This will also lower the cranking pressure, but I won't know how much until I assemble the engine and test it. This will probably lower the octane requirement as well.
slipdog wrote:
FWIW, I've got an '02 CR that I took .040" off the base and raised the exhaust .040". With the squish @ .042" it had 265psi...
FWIW, I've got an '02 CR that I took .040" off the base and raised the exhaust .040". With the squish @ .042" it had 265psi and couldn't take a 50/50 with premium & C12. I just relieved the head to .055" squish and blended an 8.5mm band to get down to 240psi and will test it this weekend with 100% C12.
If you are down to 240psi now, I think you'll be fine with about a 100 octane blend, depending on the weather, your jetting, and the type of soil you are riding. You'll have plenty of safety factor with straight C12.
mxb2
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mxb2 1/18/2013 7:34pm
1/18/2013 7:34pm
mxb2 wrote:
Renegade is great stuff. Their service is excellent. But probably like vp the shipping fees kill ya. Unless you buy a pallet full of fuel. I...
Renegade is great stuff. Their service is excellent. But probably like vp the shipping fees kill ya. Unless you buy a pallet full of fuel. I think alot of dealers are afraid of being stuck with the fuel on the floor. I would go by how much demand riders are asking about the fuel. Renegade is not as known as much as vp.and imo its as good or better. I have used both.seems like vp is stocked more. Not sure who you dealt with at renegade but Beth and josh pitts were very helpful to me as well as chad sanner at 11/10 mods. Good luck keep me posted.
motofab36 wrote:
I called Josh Pitts and left a message. I later went ahead and called the office number and talked to a lady who said she would...
I called Josh Pitts and left a message. I later went ahead and called the office number and talked to a lady who said she would give my info to the rep for my area but she said he was on his way to Tx. so might be after the weekend. Pitts is the tech guy appearently and is out of Cali but has a Ky. ph number.
Yea josh is the tech guy and was very helpful on tech info. He is very busy. We played phone tag and i got the info i needed. Beth at renegade gave me the local reps name and number also. But for me it would have been just as cheap to get it direct from renegade.like i said shipping the fuel was the big expense but beth was vety helpful. And she said if the rep was not available she could help.
captmoto
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captmoto 1/18/2013 10:39pm
1/18/2013 10:39pm
CamP wrote:
When the temps got under 50, it started pinging a little in the mid throttle under heavy loads on sand tracks with straight 100LL. I raised...
When the temps got under 50, it started pinging a little in the mid throttle under heavy loads on sand tracks with straight 100LL. I raised the needle, which helped, but it needed a bit of race gas to clear it up. It runs clean with straight 100LL when the temps get over 50.

If you don't ride in sand during cold weather, I don't think you'll ever have an issue with straight 100LL after milling .030" off the base of your 05-07 CR250 cylinder. You can machine the head's chamber to increase the volume if you want to run lower grade fuel, but I like how it runs with the cranking pressure in the 235-240psi range. Eric Gorr will do the base and head machining for about $75.

My next modification will be raising the exhaust port .030-.040", which will improve over-rev. This will also lower the cranking pressure, but I won't know how much until I assemble the engine and test it. This will probably lower the octane requirement as well.
Good to know CamP. Under 50, not terribly common here in SoCal, maybe just during practice. Not a lot of sand here unless I'm riding sandwashes in the desert.

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