Team USA strategy.

kongols
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kongols
Edited Date/Time 10/2/2012 11:00pm
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
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FastEddy
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FastEddy 10/1/2012 12:18pm
10/1/2012 12:18pm Edited Date/Time 10/1/2012 12:24pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
Nope - they should have been over there riding & practicing a year before the event - or several years lol. Smile

Because obviously there were plenty of teams that had 3 good guys to ride the standard of that track as team and finish well.Look at Saturdays qually results.
Fitness may have hurt a few guys/third-riders on Sunday -but their speed & skill was there on Saturday.
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ML512 10/1/2012 12:26pm
10/1/2012 12:26pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
I don't think so, i think they just knew that would be the only way to win. I was very impressed with Schiffer for this, he really held it together and gave Germany a great 5th result for their total.
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FreshTopEnd 10/1/2012 12:28pm
10/1/2012 12:28pm
What other strategy was there? Getting good starts? Not crashing?

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GuyB
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GuyB 10/1/2012 12:33pm
10/1/2012 12:33pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
That's deep. We may have to call you Roger DeKongols from now on.
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TDeath21 10/1/2012 12:33pm
10/1/2012 12:33pm
Sand and mud are the two great equalizers. They played the consistency card too much, depending on all other teams to struggle finding a 3rd rider. Also, I said before the races that they should have put Baggett on the outside both motos because he won't get a good start anyway. That made a difference in the first moto. They should have known they were going up against the best sand riders in the world and went for the win every time instead of depending on team consistency.
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GrapeApe 10/1/2012 12:37pm
10/1/2012 12:37pm
kongols
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kongols 10/1/2012 12:40pm
10/1/2012 12:40pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
GuyB wrote:
That's deep. We may have to call you Roger DeKongols from now on.
Happy BD!
philG
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philG 10/1/2012 12:55pm
10/1/2012 12:55pm
i dont think it was down to anything other than the riders not being up to the job.. they were the best 3 riders you had , Dungey looked very out of sorts , Barcia was a crash waiting to happen, and Baggett was just slow.. 8-14-17-17 for two MXoN's isnt good enough.

You cant ride the bike for them , Barcia just blew himself out of it trying to ride too fast early on and his race suffered, falling off just as he was about to get lapped saved him the embarrassment of getting the blue flag.

What i will say is that Barcia learned the hard way and put in a solid moto in race 3 , and showed that speed over a race distance is what counts.

Maybe if the US tracks were allowed to get bumpy , your guys would have been better prepped.
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DavidR 10/1/2012 1:12pm
10/1/2012 1:12pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys were plain and simple no excuses. It'd be the same thing though as the MXON coming to the US and us holding that race on a SX track. The US riders would dominate that type of race because that's what our riders are familiar with. You've seen the video of Herlings practicing on a SX track going at a rediculously slow pace through the whoops and still eating shit big time. Congratulations to Germany for getting their MXON victory and to AC and Herlings as they were incredibly impressive in the sand. I'm proud of the US guys for giving it their best on a surface that they aren't familiar with and coming out with a 3rd overall. Time to move on to something else.
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stevee401 10/1/2012 1:20pm
10/1/2012 1:20pm
DavidR wrote:
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys...
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys were plain and simple no excuses. It'd be the same thing though as the MXON coming to the US and us holding that race on a SX track. The US riders would dominate that type of race because that's what our riders are familiar with. You've seen the video of Herlings practicing on a SX track going at a rediculously slow pace through the whoops and still eating shit big time. Congratulations to Germany for getting their MXON victory and to AC and Herlings as they were incredibly impressive in the sand. I'm proud of the US guys for giving it their best on a surface that they aren't familiar with and coming out with a 3rd overall. Time to move on to something else.
Well said. Proud of Team USA.
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bdub 10/1/2012 1:26pm
10/1/2012 1:26pm
philG wrote:
i dont think it was down to anything other than the riders not being up to the job.. they were the best 3 riders you had...
i dont think it was down to anything other than the riders not being up to the job.. they were the best 3 riders you had , Dungey looked very out of sorts , Barcia was a crash waiting to happen, and Baggett was just slow.. 8-14-17-17 for two MXoN's isnt good enough.

You cant ride the bike for them , Barcia just blew himself out of it trying to ride too fast early on and his race suffered, falling off just as he was about to get lapped saved him the embarrassment of getting the blue flag.

What i will say is that Barcia learned the hard way and put in a solid moto in race 3 , and showed that speed over a race distance is what counts.

Maybe if the US tracks were allowed to get bumpy , your guys would have been better prepped.
You say Barcia blew himself out, but I think he saw that his front wheel was missing a bunch of spokes. He backed it down for a while, then towards the end started to pick it up a bit more hoping the front wheel would stay together, which it almost did, almost...
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BKoonts 10/1/2012 1:32pm
10/1/2012 1:32pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
DavidR wrote:
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys...
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys were plain and simple no excuses. It'd be the same thing though as the MXON coming to the US and us holding that race on a SX track. The US riders would dominate that type of race because that's what our riders are familiar with. You've seen the video of Herlings practicing on a SX track going at a rediculously slow pace through the whoops and still eating shit big time. Congratulations to Germany for getting their MXON victory and to AC and Herlings as they were incredibly impressive in the sand. I'm proud of the US guys for giving it their best on a surface that they aren't familiar with and coming out with a 3rd overall. Time to move on to something else.
David, didn't you hear? The U.S. guys went to Lommel unprepared and over-confident, kongols said so himself in another thread. Everyone knows how cocky and over-confident American people are... that's why everyone else is absolutely reveling in our defeat. Our guys got beat fair and square and we are trying to be gracious in defeat but guys like him will not let us.
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dkg 10/1/2012 1:51pm
10/1/2012 1:51pm
Very interesting comments from RD. The weight/rider orientation on the bike was interesting to watch during the motos. Our guys were clearly placing more emphasis on the front wheel than others. Muscle memory is going to be impossible to change in a couple days of practice. It was particularly noticeable in the way our riders setup for turns. Barcia seemed to adapt a little easier, but, if you think about it, it really was more a situation of his normal riding style being better suited to sand.

Anyway, good racing. Was really nice to see Roczen end the year this way. Congrats to Germany and all the teams.
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LS1guy 10/1/2012 2:07pm
10/1/2012 2:07pm
I thought out team was fine. They all three fought hard and didnt give up. I dont know of any other American who could have actually done better on THAT track.
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Bogger 10/1/2012 2:47pm
10/1/2012 2:47pm
philG wrote:
i dont think it was down to anything other than the riders not being up to the job.. they were the best 3 riders you had...
i dont think it was down to anything other than the riders not being up to the job.. they were the best 3 riders you had , Dungey looked very out of sorts , Barcia was a crash waiting to happen, and Baggett was just slow.. 8-14-17-17 for two MXoN's isnt good enough.

You cant ride the bike for them , Barcia just blew himself out of it trying to ride too fast early on and his race suffered, falling off just as he was about to get lapped saved him the embarrassment of getting the blue flag.

What i will say is that Barcia learned the hard way and put in a solid moto in race 3 , and showed that speed over a race distance is what counts.

Maybe if the US tracks were allowed to get bumpy , your guys would have been better prepped.
Our tracks are rougher (less grooming between motos) than they were a few years back. Some of them were really nasty, such as Unadilla. It is just that our one sand track (Southwick) doesn't have the really deep sand that Lommel features. No good basis for setting up suspension and riding technique for Lommel. I doubt that we will be putting a deep sand track into the circuit just because the US lost this year. Getting new tracks on the circuit is a highly political and financial-finagling ordeal and it always has been.
brakkeman_ 10/1/2012 2:52pm
10/1/2012 2:52pm
Fact is USA missed speed and track experience.

No strategy can help with that.
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graeme 10/1/2012 3:10pm
10/1/2012 3:10pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
DavidR wrote:
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys...
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys were plain and simple no excuses. It'd be the same thing though as the MXON coming to the US and us holding that race on a SX track. The US riders would dominate that type of race because that's what our riders are familiar with. You've seen the video of Herlings practicing on a SX track going at a rediculously slow pace through the whoops and still eating shit big time. Congratulations to Germany for getting their MXON victory and to AC and Herlings as they were incredibly impressive in the sand. I'm proud of the US guys for giving it their best on a surface that they aren't familiar with and coming out with a 3rd overall. Time to move on to something else.
Absolutely spot on my friend. The US team were beaten by the track, nothing more & nothing less. It has nothing to do with performance on the day or bikes or tactics. Lommel is more like a beach race than a mottocross race. I never in a million years expected the US team to come to terms with this track. When you compare it to the US hosting the MXON on a supercross track that is a very accurate analogy. Am i the only non-American objective enough to realise this.
I still think it's great to break the domination of the US and i think it's been good for the event but i expect a different story next year in Germany. I'm enjoying the moment as much as any European right now but i think we'll have to wait for another MXON beach race for another result like Lommel.
I'd still back AC222 against any rider in the world over a full season ANYWHERE.

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pilotdude 10/1/2012 3:26pm
10/1/2012 3:26pm
kongols wrote:
Did they put too much emphasis on a fact that no other team can put three superb racers on a team?
DavidR wrote:
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys...
Man, give it a rest already. The guys that won were simply better on that day, on that track in that sand than the US guys were plain and simple no excuses. It'd be the same thing though as the MXON coming to the US and us holding that race on a SX track. The US riders would dominate that type of race because that's what our riders are familiar with. You've seen the video of Herlings practicing on a SX track going at a rediculously slow pace through the whoops and still eating shit big time. Congratulations to Germany for getting their MXON victory and to AC and Herlings as they were incredibly impressive in the sand. I'm proud of the US guys for giving it their best on a surface that they aren't familiar with and coming out with a 3rd overall. Time to move on to something else.
graeme wrote:
Absolutely spot on my friend. The US team were beaten by the track, nothing more & nothing less. It has nothing to do with performance on...
Absolutely spot on my friend. The US team were beaten by the track, nothing more & nothing less. It has nothing to do with performance on the day or bikes or tactics. Lommel is more like a beach race than a mottocross race. I never in a million years expected the US team to come to terms with this track. When you compare it to the US hosting the MXON on a supercross track that is a very accurate analogy. Am i the only non-American objective enough to realise this.
I still think it's great to break the domination of the US and i think it's been good for the event but i expect a different story next year in Germany. I'm enjoying the moment as much as any European right now but i think we'll have to wait for another MXON beach race for another result like Lommel.
I'd still back AC222 against any rider in the world over a full season ANYWHERE.
I wouldn't say you are the only non-American objective enough to realize this, but you are very lonely in your position.

Mitch Payton basically said the same exact thing even before the race and I've seen many posts poo-pooing his opinion.

I mean it's not like he's ever been a racer, or manager, or team owner of one of the most successful U.S. teams of all time at both supercross and motocross.
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ehr400 10/1/2012 3:54pm
10/1/2012 3:54pm
philG wrote:
i dont think it was down to anything other than the riders not being up to the job.. they were the best 3 riders you had...
i dont think it was down to anything other than the riders not being up to the job.. they were the best 3 riders you had , Dungey looked very out of sorts , Barcia was a crash waiting to happen, and Baggett was just slow.. 8-14-17-17 for two MXoN's isnt good enough.

You cant ride the bike for them , Barcia just blew himself out of it trying to ride too fast early on and his race suffered, falling off just as he was about to get lapped saved him the embarrassment of getting the blue flag.

What i will say is that Barcia learned the hard way and put in a solid moto in race 3 , and showed that speed over a race distance is what counts.

Maybe if the US tracks were allowed to get bumpy , your guys would have been better prepped.
I dont know what you have watched but most of the GP's minus the sand tracks looked like highways compared to the national tracks. If they were so smooth then Kenny and MM should have killed it right? Even they said in interviews they couldn't believe how rough they were. For the record they dont groom the nationals between motos, if they do it is a jump face or something safety related.
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Tim507 10/1/2012 5:31pm
10/1/2012 5:31pm
Team USA got beat and there is no shame in that. 3rd OA was an awesome finish and as an American I am very proud of our riders. That was one fkn tough track!!!
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chrisbuehler 10/1/2012 5:39pm
10/1/2012 5:39pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Sand and mud are the two great equalizers. They played the consistency card too much, depending on all other teams to struggle finding a 3rd rider...
Sand and mud are the two great equalizers. They played the consistency card too much, depending on all other teams to struggle finding a 3rd rider. Also, I said before the races that they should have put Baggett on the outside both motos because he won't get a good start anyway. That made a difference in the first moto. They should have known they were going up against the best sand riders in the world and went for the win every time instead of depending on team consistency.
How can Bagget not even buy a start?! He weighs a buck thirty, probably, on a PC bike. I get why Tomac is a little hit or miss, he's prob got 30-40lbs on these guys. He still ripped a bunch though and the 450 will solve his weight disadvantage. What's Blake gonna do getting a midpack start against the Ryan's? There won't be any chippacabra charges at the 15 minute mark when they are 30 seconds gone
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FastEddy 10/1/2012 5:51pm
10/1/2012 5:51pm Edited Date/Time 10/1/2012 6:14pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Sand and mud are the two great equalizers. They played the consistency card too much, depending on all other teams to struggle finding a 3rd rider...
Sand and mud are the two great equalizers. They played the consistency card too much, depending on all other teams to struggle finding a 3rd rider. Also, I said before the races that they should have put Baggett on the outside both motos because he won't get a good start anyway. That made a difference in the first moto. They should have known they were going up against the best sand riders in the world and went for the win every time instead of depending on team consistency.
Sand & Mud are two completely different things.
Blakes's start was fine for the gate he had....could/would have been far worse on the outside.
Roczen gate pick was a bit better IMO....that is how he started so well (Germany had first dibbs).
Blake was in the right position to charge hard & forward -where we at the least needed him to be (mid pack on the bubble in the first couple turns).
He then got together or made a mistake while chasing the Dutch MX2 rider (who was riding a wide bike -they also had good gates) he went down.
He then regrouped and was charging for a top 10 and went down again I believe.
Dungey started just fine from where he was also on the outside.
Our starts helped us more then they hurt us IMO. It was the on the track riding that bit us well into the motos.

Now if it was muddy or we were expecting rain in a moto on a dirt track!
Get your best mud rider out front as quick as possible regardless of what size bike he is on.
But the way sand is and carrying momentum ,you want your MX2 guy to have as much of an advantage as possible and rely on your big bike rider to get a jump use his power to start well from anywhere.
Well unless he is godly fast like AC & Herlings and where he knew the track like the back of his hand.
Then he can let everyone go to the first corner and chase them all down. Smile
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TDeath21 10/2/2012 9:03am
10/2/2012 9:03am
TDeath21 wrote:
Sand and mud are the two great equalizers. They played the consistency card too much, depending on all other teams to struggle finding a 3rd rider...
Sand and mud are the two great equalizers. They played the consistency card too much, depending on all other teams to struggle finding a 3rd rider. Also, I said before the races that they should have put Baggett on the outside both motos because he won't get a good start anyway. That made a difference in the first moto. They should have known they were going up against the best sand riders in the world and went for the win every time instead of depending on team consistency.
FastEddy wrote:
Sand & Mud are two completely different things. Blakes's start was fine for the gate he had....could/would have been far worse on the outside. Roczen gate...
Sand & Mud are two completely different things.
Blakes's start was fine for the gate he had....could/would have been far worse on the outside.
Roczen gate pick was a bit better IMO....that is how he started so well (Germany had first dibbs).
Blake was in the right position to charge hard & forward -where we at the least needed him to be (mid pack on the bubble in the first couple turns).
He then got together or made a mistake while chasing the Dutch MX2 rider (who was riding a wide bike -they also had good gates) he went down.
He then regrouped and was charging for a top 10 and went down again I believe.
Dungey started just fine from where he was also on the outside.
Our starts helped us more then they hurt us IMO. It was the on the track riding that bit us well into the motos.

Now if it was muddy or we were expecting rain in a moto on a dirt track!
Get your best mud rider out front as quick as possible regardless of what size bike he is on.
But the way sand is and carrying momentum ,you want your MX2 guy to have as much of an advantage as possible and rely on your big bike rider to get a jump use his power to start well from anywhere.
Well unless he is godly fast like AC & Herlings and where he knew the track like the back of his hand.
Then he can let everyone go to the first corner and chase them all down. Smile
I didn't say they were the same thing. They are only similar in the fact that they equalize the competition. Those are the two conditions that will equalize the field. That's why when it's a muddy race or a sand track, you'll see guys nowhere near the caliber of the best competing with the best.
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kongols 10/2/2012 9:13am
10/2/2012 9:13am
BKoonts wrote:
David, didn't you hear? The U.S. guys went to Lommel unprepared and over-confident, kongols said so himself in another thread. Everyone knows how cocky and over-confident...
David, didn't you hear? The U.S. guys went to Lommel unprepared and over-confident, kongols said so himself in another thread. Everyone knows how cocky and over-confident American people are... that's why everyone else is absolutely reveling in our defeat. Our guys got beat fair and square and we are trying to be gracious in defeat but guys like him will not let us.
But that`s exactly what this thread is about. They thought that having strong overall team would be enough. Well, Germans beat you in your own game, but they went a little further they actually took sand seriously.
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RandyS 10/2/2012 9:18am
10/2/2012 9:18am
Team USA lost on a track that is unlike any that they race on as amateurs or pros. Next year they will win and begin a new streak. This is good for everyone involved to happen once a generation because it lets up and coming euro riders see that they can get to the level of the US riders, a few of them do and then come here to race the true greatest series on earth. One of those riders helped Germany win this year.
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jeffro503 10/2/2012 9:23am
10/2/2012 9:23am
The one and only thing that our hurt our team was the track surface. At least that is what it all boils down to for me. We just don't have that kind of sand any where that I know of unless we made a track on a beach some where. I think we were over confident for sure.......and we definitely underestimated a few of those guys in that sand.

And even though I hated watching AC and Herlings destroy our guys in the sand like that......being a fan of MX in general....in was an awesome sight to see someone with great skills like that ride a bike on a track that resembled a place where a nuclear bomb went off.

I think both sides can agree....it's a specialty one-off type track. And it played a toll on other riders and teams as well.....even ones that were more familiar with it than our guys. Some of those GP guys have some awesome sand riding skills for sure!

Next year....when we get to Germany on that hard packed track I think our chances will be better for sure.
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robkinuk 10/2/2012 9:26am
10/2/2012 9:26am Edited Date/Time 10/2/2012 9:28am
Watching Baggett, Barcia and Dungey riding Lommel you could tell they were totally out of their depth!
Herlings is so light and fluid on his bike in sand that he just floats on the top layer, not digging in, coupled with his speed approx 30% faster than Team US were riding.
Baggett in particular seemed to be revving the bike coming out of the corners, which at Lommel just digs you down deeper.
Chuck Sun said to me the US suspension set ups looked a lot stiffer than Herlings and Cairoli.
Also when watching Herlings, he is so fluid on the track, not sticking to precise lines just going where the bike & track take him. In the same corner 4 laps running he used different lines every lap. He was just lightly "kissing the berms" whilst Barcia was slamming into them and this resulted in him plowing off the track in his qualifier and going through fence and banners!

Team USA seemed to be a lot stiffer, sticking to same lines, but what works one lap will be totally different in the soft sand the next time around.
Also they had a private practice at Lommel friday before but Lommel is totally different when you have fast riders like Herlings, Cairoli, Nagel etc, it pushes the bumps a lot further apart than a private session.
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kongols 10/2/2012 9:37am
10/2/2012 9:37am
Lommel has been around perhaps longer than AMA with that comes a question. Is motocross about to change? Will americans force SX on a world? Will all the tracks try to be RedBud-ish? I see it in Kegums where soil is twice as hard as it used to be. There is no more individuality in tracks anymore. ALL the GP tracks have the same architect who uses the same blueprint on every track. From what I understand this was the last year of Lommel`s existence.
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seth505 10/2/2012 9:50am
10/2/2012 9:50am
they just weren't fast enough.

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