What separates top tier from second tier racers?

SLAPAHO
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5/31/2012 11:07pm
getting bashed on vital or not
6/1/2012 1:36am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2012 4:21am
Obviously leading up to that level includes all the things already mentioned a dozen times - fitness, money, equipment etc.

Out on the track where does this translate into that difference in speed? The corners.

The top guys have just a little more everywhere but especially on approach, through and out of the corners. It's the hardest place to go fast and where races are won and lost. When they sometimes set up a static camera you can really see it. The top guys all come through at a very similar speed but by the time you get down to maybe 5th or 6th, it's like a little bit less, a little bit less... right down the pack.

You only have to go 1/2 a mph faster than someone over most of a lap for that to add up to a big lead after 30 odd minutes.
wow123
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6/1/2012 3:18am
some points

Certainly luck plays some part, I'd think there'd be a few potential champs who got injured and weren't able to get over the injury early in their racing.

Opportunity, in which money is part of that equation. In my part of the world there is huge pools of wasted talent in almost every area of life. Families with no money + no sponsors = no great riders.

Burnout, some kids get forced to do a sport to the point where something they loved, they now are well over it.
ADynes
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6/1/2012 4:08am
What the heck is "natural talent"?

The Shop

jeffro503
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6/1/2012 7:32am
ADynes wrote:
What the heck is "natural talent"?
This has been debated a bunch on here.

"Natural talent " is something some riders have , and some riders don't. MOST of the guys you see racing Nationals and SX would probably be considered as having a lot of natural talent compared to the 1000's of other riders which never made it that far.

Going up to the top level......look at KW.......nothing but pure natural talent. Sure , MC and RC beat him more times than he ever beat them.....but BOTH RC and MC have said that KW is one of the most gifted riders to ever throw a leg over a bike. In fact MC said that " It would be amazing to just look through KW's eyes for one day ". I also think Stewart is extremely loaded with natural talent..

KW had more natural talent on a bike than MC and RC......even though not as fast.....as pure technical skill goes.....he was head and shoulders ahead of those guys.
6/1/2012 7:48am
Joelessi wrote:
[img]http://www.jennytalia.com/wp-content/2009/07/ts-bull-balls-225x300.jpg[/img]
bullpen58 wrote:
The answer is "shaved balls"? Seems legit
They have BIG BALLS
FreshTopEnd
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6/1/2012 8:01am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2012 10:29am
The ultimate edge is more talent (and IMO a killer inner ear). Obviously there's a lot to getting the most out of your talent, from working hard and smart and having good people around you to keep you focused on the smart part, but in the end, all other things equal, the best riders can do things others can't.
Sherwood
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6/1/2012 10:02am
Talent.
MickeyMeanie
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6/1/2012 10:20am
I think that #7 kid proved that being comfortable and confident is a huge key to success or failure in the 2012 SX season. Based on his success to date in 2012 MX, a not so simple change in equipment to something he's comfortable and confident on put the icing on the cake that is his natural talent and absolute desire to win at any price.
MotoX85
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6/1/2012 10:34am
Sheriff245 wrote:
About 3 seconds a lap.
Is there really any other answer than this.
MBBadgers
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6/1/2012 10:37am
money.
Titan1
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6/1/2012 10:51am
I'll go with 2 parts talent...2 parts mental.

Talent is the ability of a person to internalize and then process and then react to the terrain, better balance, body position, etc...riding a bike just comes easy to them. hand eye coordination...there is no delay between seeing something on the track, and reacting to it. (Some of that can be learned, other parts are people are just plain born with).

I've always said my little brother just has the "go fast" gene in his DNA (and I didn't get it). He just goes faster than me on anything...quads, dirt bikes, go carts...he can just internalize/process/react to the terrain faster than me.

Mental is about self confidence, fearlessness (not afraid to just pin it and pray and pray on occasion), desire to win, mind over body (mentally force the body to do things it doesn't want to do...ride in pain, past exhaustion etc).

Champions are born...some capitalize on that talent and become champions. Others never know they have it and/or waste it...

Take a guy with a lot of natural talent, that works harder than anyone else and has a mental edge and natural fearlessness and desire to win....and you get an RC. Take a guy with more natural talent than anyone, works harder than most, but doesn't seem to have that constant mental "attack/fearlessness/desire to win at all costs"...and you get a K-Dub.
BobbyM
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6/1/2012 11:17am
machine wrote:
So what's the difference in your opinion between guys like RV, RC, RD, TC, JS and CR from the rest of the pack?
luck, talent, desire, determination, ability, body size, nads, bravery, nads, will and nads
6/1/2012 11:30am
The difference between RV and Wiemer, two guys that share teams, both guys train extremely hard with the same guy and are both extremely naturally talented is the mind. Those two have and use the exact same program but yet RV has had success while Jake has had minimal success.

RVs mind has the ability to process information at a faster rate then Wiemers. He sees things slower and can ride through all the different terrain faster and can put together sectoons faster. Its also the reason why the top guys seem to pull off huge swaps, they can react to the situation faster.

Simple really.
burn1986
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6/1/2012 11:33am
confidence.
Jefro98
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6/1/2012 12:07pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2012 12:08pm
At the highest level of any sport the talent difference is overrated.
The top 100 guys of any sport are all good at what they do.
Maybe 2 or 3 have the exceptional talent but there must be 30 - 50 guys which have the same skill level.
Then the biggest difference is a mental thing and putting in the work to get the body in shape.

Like Titan said: RC never has been the most talented rider out there but he won so much by working hard and having a mental advantage on his competition.
FreshTopEnd
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6/1/2012 12:41pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2012 12:42pm
I have to disagree with you a bit here Jeff. RC absolutely was as talented as anyone out there. I submit that we tend too much to define talent by how smooth a guy is, so that cats like Everts, Windham, Bayle, Lechien are deemed really talented, but guys whose style is a bit rougher are work horses who overcome lack of talent through sheer will power. But to be in the class of guys we're talking about, a handful of guys as you mention, there's a transcendent talent to go fast whatever the style is.

RC didn't win every title he entered and and only fail to finish one race, the last race of his full season career, because of an injury only because of his tenacity and in spite of his style. He had an unreal ability to hang it out no matter how wicked it looked without going down. Magoo was another guy with surreal talent, but he couldn't pull that off. The fact that it wasn't always pretty doesn't mean that he was less talented than the smooth guys. Same with Hannah, Mikkola, Bradshaw, Stanton, RJ, and guys like that. Those guys had something extra that transcended the other guys who worked just as hard and were just as determined, but never approached being year in and year out threats to the talented guys.

But I totally agree that you can have the most talented guy in the world and his results will be erratic at best if he isn't mentally strong and able to focus. Marty Tripes was one of the most mind blowingly smooth and talented riders ever, I don't think there's ever been anyone who looked so slow going so fast, but whether you saw that on a given day depended on where his head was at.
julienmark
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6/1/2012 2:10pm
So, what you are saying if i shave my balls i WILL be a hero, but if i slip with the razor i WILL be a zero!

Hmmmmmmm decisons.
Jefro98
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6/1/2012 2:23pm
I have to disagree with you a bit here Jeff. RC absolutely was as talented as anyone out there. I submit that we tend too much...
I have to disagree with you a bit here Jeff. RC absolutely was as talented as anyone out there. I submit that we tend too much to define talent by how smooth a guy is, so that cats like Everts, Windham, Bayle, Lechien are deemed really talented, but guys whose style is a bit rougher are work horses who overcome lack of talent through sheer will power. But to be in the class of guys we're talking about, a handful of guys as you mention, there's a transcendent talent to go fast whatever the style is.

RC didn't win every title he entered and and only fail to finish one race, the last race of his full season career, because of an injury only because of his tenacity and in spite of his style. He had an unreal ability to hang it out no matter how wicked it looked without going down. Magoo was another guy with surreal talent, but he couldn't pull that off. The fact that it wasn't always pretty doesn't mean that he was less talented than the smooth guys. Same with Hannah, Mikkola, Bradshaw, Stanton, RJ, and guys like that. Those guys had something extra that transcended the other guys who worked just as hard and were just as determined, but never approached being year in and year out threats to the talented guys.

But I totally agree that you can have the most talented guy in the world and his results will be erratic at best if he isn't mentally strong and able to focus. Marty Tripes was one of the most mind blowingly smooth and talented riders ever, I don't think there's ever been anyone who looked so slow going so fast, but whether you saw that on a given day depended on where his head was at.
Good points Michael, talent and smoothness are not the same.

But you gotta admit, guys like Bayle, Lechien, Tripes, Pourcel seem to me the very few really talented riders who are able to go very fast without doing the hard work like RC, Stanton and Dave Thorpe (just to name a few) did.
These guys somehow have the ability to ride fast without using the energy a "normal" racer does.
Sherwood
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6/1/2012 2:58pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2012 3:00pm
Jefro98 wrote:
At the highest level of any sport the talent difference is overrated. The top 100 guys of any sport are all good at what they do...
At the highest level of any sport the talent difference is overrated.
The top 100 guys of any sport are all good at what they do.
Maybe 2 or 3 have the exceptional talent but there must be 30 - 50 guys which have the same skill level.
Then the biggest difference is a mental thing and putting in the work to get the body in shape.

Like Titan said: RC never has been the most talented rider out there but he won so much by working hard and having a mental advantage on his competition.
So when RC was eating crispy chicken sandwiches from Mc Donald's and still beating everyone he was working harder then everyone? For some reason people only want to bring up RC's career when he was with Aldon. He wasn't always.

I agree with Chad Reed. Either you have it or you don't.
BobbyM
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6/1/2012 3:40pm
KW had more natural talent on a bike than MC and RC......even though not as fast.....as pure technical skill goes.....he was head and shoulders ahead of those guys

i say bullshit to that
machine
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6/2/2012 6:44am
I think if you combine everything everyone said, you have it.

Mental toughness, raw talent, the right people around, processing speed, balls, drive and determination(the will to win) and some luck.

The X factor is the bike I suppose, ie: Stewart and Reed switching bikes and RV all the sudden getting better with the 2012 KX.

I guess the 2nd tier racers are missing one or more of those items which equates to riding in another pack on the track.
6/2/2012 7:01am
I think it is unfair to say talent separates the top guys, it diminishes the work they put in.

To me, they want it more.

This results in working harder, and risking it all when they need to.

Best example: seeing a top guy going down in the start and seeing them get to the front.

They simply refuse to give up, mental toughness gets you further than raw talent.
DonM
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6/2/2012 7:15am
As a top trainer told me once "winning takes three things, ability, heart and work ethic...you can win with two out of the three until someone shows up that has all three"
6/2/2012 7:18am
didn't RC knock himself out at one of the anaheim sx races and not finish, and also put a footpeg in his thigh at SD and not finish? all very early in his 250 days?
If the bike held back JS so much with all his talent, it's possible to conceive that there could be many more champions if they only had better equipment. In many sports the elite group has the ability to to see things in slow motion, time is perceived differently for them. An event the happens in the blink of an eye for us happens very slow for them and they proactively make corrections rather than reactively make corrections. Of course the training is a big factor but some are just born with special abilities.

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