from MXA...Italy 4-stroke banned for kids in competition

CamP
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CamP 1/27/2012 1:04pm
1/27/2012 1:04pm
This is something nobody can deny. It costs the mini dad $1,000 extra to walk out the door with a new CRF150R. For some potential buyers, that will be a deal breaker. Controlling costs of mini bikes should be a top priority if we want to keep grass roots motocross healthy.
MBR
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MBR 1/27/2012 1:26pm
1/27/2012 1:26pm
Yep, keeping the cost down isn't the priority to FIM. I think the free KTM's the people at Italian federation are getting have something to do with this decision....and since I've worked within federation here in Finland, I know first hand that KTM tried to ban CRF150 in all European countries. Somehow I feel the safety or costs aren't the issue here ; )
500guy
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500guy 1/27/2012 1:30pm
1/27/2012 1:30pm
MBR wrote:
Yep, keeping the cost down isn't the priority to FIM. I think the free KTM's the people at Italian federation are getting have something to do...
Yep, keeping the cost down isn't the priority to FIM. I think the free KTM's the people at Italian federation are getting have something to do with this decision....and since I've worked within federation here in Finland, I know first hand that KTM tried to ban CRF150 in all European countries. Somehow I feel the safety or costs aren't the issue here ; )
Well now we got us a story here Men.
reded
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reded 1/27/2012 1:33pm
1/27/2012 1:33pm
500guy wrote:
Well now we got us a story here Men.
Big Dick Contest between KTM and Honda?

The Shop

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Mspicer
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Mspicer 1/27/2012 1:36pm
1/27/2012 1:36pm Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 1:43pm
CamP wrote:
This is something nobody can deny. It costs the mini dad $1,000 extra to walk out the door with a new CRF150R. For some potential buyers...
This is something nobody can deny. It costs the mini dad $1,000 extra to walk out the door with a new CRF150R. For some potential buyers, that will be a deal breaker. Controlling costs of mini bikes should be a top priority if we want to keep grass roots motocross healthy.
Where are you buying your 150r's? I paid $3499 out the door for two of them. A new KX 85 is $3999. I paid $3299 for a KTM mini, $3500 for ktm jr, $3800,for ktm senior, and $4500 for ktm 65. If you want to know what is expensive about the sport, it is entry level racing. We started riding the 150r last year and it didn't cost half of what it cost us to race in the sixties class.
Barrett57
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Barrett57 1/27/2012 1:43pm
1/27/2012 1:43pm
How long until we see the next Italian superstar?
MX Sports Medicine 1/27/2012 2:02pm
1/27/2012 2:02pm
Steve_Groves wrote:
So much for Mr Srb saying it'll keep down the cost - if they ban kids from riding 150f's I'll have to buy my son a...
So much for Mr Srb saying it'll keep down the cost - if they ban kids from riding 150f's I'll have to buy my son a 2 stroke and nobody will want to buy the 150f from me so that'll be worth nothing. How is that keeping the cost down?????? Quite the opposite I'd say.
Dude,
This aint about YOU.
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 1/27/2012 2:03pm
1/27/2012 2:03pm
I don't understand why everyone is so afraid of the CRF150R. From what I understand the bike is a turd and a modded 85 is still the way to go. Let the free market root that thing out.
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 1/27/2012 2:03pm
1/27/2012 2:03pm
Mspicer wrote:
Where are you buying your 150r's? I paid $3499 out the door for two of them. A new KX 85 is $3999. I paid $3299 for...
Where are you buying your 150r's? I paid $3499 out the door for two of them. A new KX 85 is $3999. I paid $3299 for a KTM mini, $3500 for ktm jr, $3800,for ktm senior, and $4500 for ktm 65. If you want to know what is expensive about the sport, it is entry level racing. We started riding the 150r last year and it didn't cost half of what it cost us to race in the sixties class.
Retail on a new 150R is $5100.
Retail on a new KX85 is $3950.

Say what?
CamP
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CamP 1/27/2012 2:15pm
1/27/2012 2:15pm Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 2:19pm
CamP wrote:
This is something nobody can deny. It costs the mini dad $1,000 extra to walk out the door with a new CRF150R. For some potential buyers...
This is something nobody can deny. It costs the mini dad $1,000 extra to walk out the door with a new CRF150R. For some potential buyers, that will be a deal breaker. Controlling costs of mini bikes should be a top priority if we want to keep grass roots motocross healthy.
Mspicer wrote:
Where are you buying your 150r's? I paid $3499 out the door for two of them. A new KX 85 is $3999. I paid $3299 for...
Where are you buying your 150r's? I paid $3499 out the door for two of them. A new KX 85 is $3999. I paid $3299 for a KTM mini, $3500 for ktm jr, $3800,for ktm senior, and $4500 for ktm 65. If you want to know what is expensive about the sport, it is entry level racing. We started riding the 150r last year and it didn't cost half of what it cost us to race in the sixties class.
I'm not talking about buying a heavily discounted '09 model because that's an apples/oranges comparison. The '12 150R retails for $5,000. That's $1,000 more than the current Japanese 85's. Get rid of the 85's and I guarantee you won't be buying 150R's for $3,500 anymore.

KTM's mini bikes have always been way overpriced.
MX Sports Medicine 1/27/2012 2:20pm
1/27/2012 2:20pm
GrapeApe wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is so afraid of the CRF150R. From what I understand the bike is a turd and a modded 85 is still...
I don't understand why everyone is so afraid of the CRF150R. From what I understand the bike is a turd and a modded 85 is still the way to go. Let the free market root that thing out.
Grenadeing will root it out too
Blackopsrider7 1/27/2012 2:38pm
1/27/2012 2:38pm
Everyone at the high level of racing( not trail/fun riding) knows that it cost more for a 4 stroke when it grenades, which they do in the hands of a 12 year old twisting that throttle. the dad could easily throw in a new piston and rings in an 85 2 stroke without too much hassle now the 150F goes up or the 250F, valves are involved etc. It wasn't attacking the intelligence of the dads in Europe or anywhere in the world, the fact is, there is more involved with a rebuilding a 4 stroke if you don't have factory support, hence the grass-roots racing needs 2 strokes, way easier/cheaper to mod as well. I like how retards latch onto one thing and run with it to suit their cause( as in attacking the comment about dads working on 4 strokes), always the loudest pot has always the most empty!!
newmann
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newmann 1/27/2012 2:44pm
1/27/2012 2:44pm
Blackopsrider7 wrote:
Everyone at the high level of racing( not trail/fun riding) knows that it cost more for a 4 stroke when it grenades, which they do in...
Everyone at the high level of racing( not trail/fun riding) knows that it cost more for a 4 stroke when it grenades, which they do in the hands of a 12 year old twisting that throttle. the dad could easily throw in a new piston and rings in an 85 2 stroke without too much hassle now the 150F goes up or the 250F, valves are involved etc. It wasn't attacking the intelligence of the dads in Europe or anywhere in the world, the fact is, there is more involved with a rebuilding a 4 stroke if you don't have factory support, hence the grass-roots racing needs 2 strokes, way easier/cheaper to mod as well. I like how retards latch onto one thing and run with it to suit their cause( as in attacking the comment about dads working on 4 strokes), always the loudest pot has always the most empty!!
Yep, the 4 stroke mafia operates that way. Wink
500guy
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500guy 1/27/2012 2:49pm
1/27/2012 2:49pm
Blackopsrider7 wrote:
Everyone at the high level of racing( not trail/fun riding) knows that it cost more for a 4 stroke when it grenades, which they do in...
Everyone at the high level of racing( not trail/fun riding) knows that it cost more for a 4 stroke when it grenades, which they do in the hands of a 12 year old twisting that throttle. the dad could easily throw in a new piston and rings in an 85 2 stroke without too much hassle now the 150F goes up or the 250F, valves are involved etc. It wasn't attacking the intelligence of the dads in Europe or anywhere in the world, the fact is, there is more involved with a rebuilding a 4 stroke if you don't have factory support, hence the grass-roots racing needs 2 strokes, way easier/cheaper to mod as well. I like how retards latch onto one thing and run with it to suit their cause( as in attacking the comment about dads working on 4 strokes), always the loudest pot has always the most empty!!
newmann wrote:
Yep, the 4 stroke mafia operates that way. Wink
I won't argue the cost of racing is to high but lets not let the fact Italian Federation is basically taking bribes and that the FIM gives two shits about the cost of racing.

These rules have nothing to do with a real resurgence of 2 strokes.
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RandyS 1/27/2012 2:59pm
1/27/2012 2:59pm
Hope this is written to say water cooled four strokes, I don't know how local racing is controlled in Italy but I assume they have play bikes from the shrinking 4. They will have shot off their foot to spite their ass or however that goes. A kid with a CRF50 or 80 won't be able to try racing without buying a new bike.
BESTY #72
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BESTY #72 1/27/2012 3:08pm
1/27/2012 3:08pm
Haha! How long til Honda scrap the "Four stroke only company" ??
Charles Bronson 1/27/2012 3:16pm
1/27/2012 3:16pm
MBR wrote:
Yep, keeping the cost down isn't the priority to FIM. I think the free KTM's the people at Italian federation are getting have something to do...
Yep, keeping the cost down isn't the priority to FIM. I think the free KTM's the people at Italian federation are getting have something to do with this decision....and since I've worked within federation here in Finland, I know first hand that KTM tried to ban CRF150 in all European countries. Somehow I feel the safety or costs aren't the issue here ; )
500guy wrote:
Well now we got us a story here Men.
Someone drops a conspiracy theory that suits your agenda, and now your lil pecker is just waggin' isn't it?

funny how 4 stroke guys always bag on the 2 stroke crowd for Honda conspiracy theories, but MAN this one puts the Honda/AMA theory to SHAME. FIM getting free KTMs?!

Fuck I love this thread. I'm just going to camp out here. Hope there are hook-ups, electricity and community showers.
Mspicer
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Mspicer 1/27/2012 3:40pm
1/27/2012 3:40pm
If the cost is so high for a 150r, and it is easier and less expensive to own and maintain a mini 2 stroke, and the 150r is a turd, than what is everyone worried about? No one will buy the bike and the sport at the mini level will still remain a never ending black hole of a racket.

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500guy
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500guy 1/27/2012 5:09pm
1/27/2012 5:09pm
MBR wrote:
Yep, keeping the cost down isn't the priority to FIM. I think the free KTM's the people at Italian federation are getting have something to do...
Yep, keeping the cost down isn't the priority to FIM. I think the free KTM's the people at Italian federation are getting have something to do with this decision....and since I've worked within federation here in Finland, I know first hand that KTM tried to ban CRF150 in all European countries. Somehow I feel the safety or costs aren't the issue here ; )
500guy wrote:
Well now we got us a story here Men.
Charles Bronson wrote:
Someone drops a conspiracy theory that suits your agenda, and now your lil pecker is just waggin' isn't it? funny how 4 stroke guys always bag...
Someone drops a conspiracy theory that suits your agenda, and now your lil pecker is just waggin' isn't it?

funny how 4 stroke guys always bag on the 2 stroke crowd for Honda conspiracy theories, but MAN this one puts the Honda/AMA theory to SHAME. FIM getting free KTMs?!

Fuck I love this thread. I'm just going to camp out here. Hope there are hook-ups, electricity and community showers.
Catch and release Bro, You are like a little fish, I real in, throw him back and seven minutes late he bites again.
Dropbear
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Dropbear 1/27/2012 5:19pm
1/27/2012 5:19pm
As mentioned it's a tradition thing also. Thats OK with me. The Italians love their two strokes. They ride Motobecanes and the like from the age of 10 or so without a licence. Their grandmother's probably can change pistons and rings on a two stroke!

Small engine manufacturers like Minarelli were once the lifeblood of Italian dirt biking. I suppose they want to help more local companies enter or stay in the game.
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 1/27/2012 5:24pm
1/27/2012 5:24pm
DrSweden wrote:
One big questions still remain though, maybe not a question... For 2010 or was it 2009 according to the FIM regulations (I read them long time...
One big questions still remain though, maybe not a question... For 2010 or was it 2009 according to the FIM regulations (I read them long time ago) they changed the rules to allow equal displacement in the MX2 class (250F in the US) which then opened up for the smokers. Then that went away when that season was closing. I wrote to FIM and asked what happened, no answer. No magazines mentioned this either. I guess that wasn't news (hush, hush).

I get the impression that if more than one brand bark simultaneously these "guys" at FIM roll over. In this case Honda was the only brand with an 150F, so I guess this happened with the Help of the others in some way. Still they probably don't want to piss on each other to much, but what are the odds for this to happen if all the OEM made a 150F? Would FIM then listen to the fathers? Yeah, sure...

Sometimes I feel embarrassed by the obvious suck up for power and money in our business...
According to this press release from 2007; http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Docs/f_5145.pdf this was to happen in the 2010 season but never did. My interpretation of it was that equal size two and four strokes were to be allowed in MX1 and MX2, but the displacement for MX1 was still being discussed. This was the time at which the 350cc size for MX1 was being discussed. I thought we might be seeing 350cc two strokes racing against 350cc four strokes. I never read of any explanation why it was never implemented.

I really thought the change might happen in Europe as I figured the FIM would overule the Japanese manufacturers objections and show a little favoritism to KTM (an obvious benefactor of the change) as well as other the other European manufacturers with two stroke bikes. Apparently the Japanese dominate the FIM just as they do the AMA here.
4mxonly
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4mxonly 1/27/2012 6:30pm
1/27/2012 6:30pm
Politics aside... this makes a lot of sense.

PS, I love the blatant hypocrisy in Jay's statement about KTM bribing the Italian Federation (case in point: Honda 150). And if anyone has any doubt of the potential behind a 2-stroke resurgence, just go to your local race track and open your eyes... wishful thinking perhaps considering so few of the Vital regulars on here actually ride.
mmcmx
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mmcmx 1/27/2012 6:46pm
1/27/2012 6:46pm
They can't race them in Spain either.
Charles Bronson 1/27/2012 7:56pm
1/27/2012 7:56pm
500guy wrote:
Well now we got us a story here Men.
Charles Bronson wrote:
Someone drops a conspiracy theory that suits your agenda, and now your lil pecker is just waggin' isn't it? funny how 4 stroke guys always bag...
Someone drops a conspiracy theory that suits your agenda, and now your lil pecker is just waggin' isn't it?

funny how 4 stroke guys always bag on the 2 stroke crowd for Honda conspiracy theories, but MAN this one puts the Honda/AMA theory to SHAME. FIM getting free KTMs?!

Fuck I love this thread. I'm just going to camp out here. Hope there are hook-ups, electricity and community showers.
500guy wrote:
Catch and release Bro, You are like a little fish, I real in, throw him back and seven minutes late he bites again.
Coming from a guy who does not know the difference between "witch" and "which", I don't find much credibility in your statement. Straight up.
500guy
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500guy 1/27/2012 7:58pm
1/27/2012 7:58pm
Got another bite, little fishy is spell check police too.
mxrose3
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mxrose3 1/27/2012 8:06pm
1/27/2012 8:06pm
500guy wrote:
My point is the MFG's don't give a shit about this rule, they will make what they want. 2 strokes are not making a comeback just...
My point is the MFG's don't give a shit about this rule, they will make what they want. 2 strokes are not making a comeback just because Italians are not smart enough to work on 4 strokes.
Funny... 4 stroke engines have been around for a long time. Most car or streetbike mechanics can work on a modern 4 stroke engine with there eyes closed.... But ask those same mechanics to work on a two stroke, and they don't even know where to begin. I've seen it - supposedly these shops have 'certified' mechanics, but when my buddy dropped his '04 CR250 to have a new crank put in at his local Honda dealer, they were lost. They kept the thing for 2 months, and finally returned it to him, and said they couldn't find the specs on it, nor did they know how to work on it. Tell me again who's smart?
nickm
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nickm 1/27/2012 8:13pm
1/27/2012 8:13pm Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 8:16pm
Good move by the Italians to protect their own moto industry...I'm sure you all remember that TM, Beta, Aprila and Husqvarna are all Italian made motorcycles and they all still make 2 strokes. So they would be idiots NOT to do this.

Cheaper bikes + support their own country's industry? Wow, what a brilliant idea....good on them for pulling this move!
\
Charles Bronson 1/27/2012 8:18pm
1/27/2012 8:18pm
500guy wrote:
Got another bite, little fishy is spell check police too.
oh, so you are really a genius, but intentionally act like a fucking idiot, just to get people to comment on it. then, when they do, you comment on their comments with redundant, irrelevant shit?

Fuck, you had me fooled, Mr. Einstein. Slick, slick, slick like a greased jellybean and twice as smart.
waitn4
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waitn4 1/27/2012 9:32pm
1/27/2012 9:32pm
500guy wrote:
My point is the MFG's don't give a shit about this rule, they will make what they want. 2 strokes are not making a comeback just...
My point is the MFG's don't give a shit about this rule, they will make what they want. 2 strokes are not making a comeback just because Italians are not smart enough to work on 4 strokes.
mxrose3 wrote:
Funny... 4 stroke engines have been around for a long time. Most car or streetbike mechanics can work on a modern 4 stroke engine with there...
Funny... 4 stroke engines have been around for a long time. Most car or streetbike mechanics can work on a modern 4 stroke engine with there eyes closed.... But ask those same mechanics to work on a two stroke, and they don't even know where to begin. I've seen it - supposedly these shops have 'certified' mechanics, but when my buddy dropped his '04 CR250 to have a new crank put in at his local Honda dealer, they were lost. They kept the thing for 2 months, and finally returned it to him, and said they couldn't find the specs on it, nor did they know how to work on it. Tell me again who's smart?
Are you sure that is what really happened? Maybe your buddy did not want to pay for their repair costs. I don't think there is any certified motorcycle mechanic that can't order a crank and split a case. I am gonna have to call bs on that.
burnside
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burnside 1/27/2012 9:43pm
1/27/2012 9:43pm
835 wrote:
WOW That is a big move. Real Big. Bet Honda gets some 2 strokes back now. Thats allot of lost sales. Edit I forgot about the...
WOW

That is a big move. Real Big.

Bet Honda gets some 2 strokes back now. Thats allot of lost sales.

Edit I forgot about the Italy and France only part while reading.
Just been reading an interview in Moto (uk)... apparently Honda have ditched 2-strokes across the board. Totally ditched them. Think they are bad for the environment... no 2-stroke anything right across their full range!

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