RIDERS UNION

andymoto
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andymoto 10/18/2011 10:35am
10/18/2011 10:35am
Thought we just had a thread on how much local A classes have diminished here in NorCal as an example.
crewshin
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crewshin 10/18/2011 10:55am
10/18/2011 10:55am
500guy wrote:
Then Mr Honda or Mr Monster say's STFU and race, I already pay you 10 times that to be here, why you give a shit about...
Then Mr Honda or Mr Monster say's STFU and race, I already pay you 10 times that to be here, why you give a shit about anything else ?

Rider XYZ say's oh yea, I forgot see you at the track and thanks for the Pay.
crewshin wrote:
What? There is no meat to that argument.

The RIDERS have control of the power. Do you not know that?
500guy wrote:
if I made 300K a year why would I exercise control to get someone who gets 20th more pay?

Money has control
The flaw in that theory is that those people won't be making 300K when the industry goes bye bye. Which will happen if something doesn't change.

It's called helping the greater good of the industry. Plus, why wouldn't those riders making 300K want to make 500K or a cool mil if they are that good and don't need more money.

Riders have control.
flarider
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flarider 10/18/2011 12:01pm
10/18/2011 12:01pm
crewshin wrote:
A riders union wouldn't work. What NEEDS to happen is for the riders to put their damn foot down (ALL TOGETHER NOW!) and tell Feld that...
A riders union wouldn't work.

What NEEDS to happen is for the riders to put their damn foot down (ALL TOGETHER NOW!) and tell Feld that they will not race the 2012 SX/MX season unless the purse is at least a specific amount... and distributed a certain way.

That will get Feld out of that comfy lazy-boy.
gsxr6 wrote:
how about a million dollar purse every race and a 2 million purse at vegas? that would get some headlines. lets say 40000 spectators per race...
how about a million dollar purse every race and a 2 million purse at vegas? that would get some headlines. lets say 40000 spectators per race. raise the tickets 10 bux a piece that pays for half of the milli right there. feld can pony up the rest and theyll make it back in the increased pr the series would get over the large payouts. look what the million dollar purse did for mec that is called perfect marketing
Million dollars a race?
Where is this money supposed to come from? Just pull it out of their ass?
gsxr6
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gsxr6 10/18/2011 12:13pm
10/18/2011 12:13pm
again feld plays broke with the number 2 motorsport in america. i bet they got a few million up there holes at least!

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flarider
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flarider 10/18/2011 12:20pm
10/18/2011 12:20pm
gsxr6 wrote:
again feld plays broke with the number 2 motorsport in america. i bet they got a few million up there holes at least!
So, again, your proposal is to just pull a million dollars a week out of their asses for 17 weeks....$17 million...just pull it out of their ass?
(16 if you take out Daytona, run by DIS and not Feld)
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 10/18/2011 12:25pm
10/18/2011 12:25pm
Cygnus wrote:
Nothing stopping these 8-40 place guys to go and sand bag the local a classes. I actuallly have a few friends who have made a decent...
Nothing stopping these 8-40 place guys to go and sand bag the local a classes. I actuallly have a few friends who have made a decent bit of cash doing just this. No need to be on the big stage to make a living racing MX.
Yup.
crewshin
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crewshin 10/18/2011 12:42pm
10/18/2011 12:42pm
Cygnus wrote:
Nothing stopping these 8-40 place guys to go and sand bag the local a classes. I actuallly have a few friends who have made a decent...
Nothing stopping these 8-40 place guys to go and sand bag the local a classes. I actuallly have a few friends who have made a decent bit of cash doing just this. No need to be on the big stage to make a living racing MX.
FreshTopEnd wrote:
Yup.
Do you guys ride? Do you know how expensive this sport is? Wtf.

So what you guys are saying is that these kids are supposed to pay their own way to some shady local race to possibly win $500 - $1000 bucks per week? Minus the gas, tires and parts they trashed in the process. At the pro level... bikes don't last like slower riders think they do. Which means you bring that same roached out pos to A1 and try to compete. You can not make a living doing what you are stating... unless you are talking about a minimum wage fast food kind of living.
dkg
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dkg 10/18/2011 12:56pm
10/18/2011 12:56pm Edited Date/Time 10/18/2011 1:07pm
flarider wrote:
Had this discussion a BUNCH of times.... Here's the problems 1. The "Haves" will not sit out/strike for the "have nots" 2. The big name riders...
Had this discussion a BUNCH of times....

Here's the problems

1. The "Haves" will not sit out/strike for the "have nots"
2. The big name riders are typically independent contractors for the factories or teams. Their contracted to race for the team. The team that pays them. They race when and where the team says or violate their contract and forfeit/violate their contract.
3. The riders do not work for and/or are not in any way employed by the promoters. Who do they negotiate with? The people they do not work for? If they "strike" they violate the terms of their contract with the team, not with the promoter.
4. For every rider who sits out, there's another pro who'll step up and race to make the money. Strike or no strike, the purse and contingency money is still there, not to mention any additional bonuses a rider may have from a sponsor. Look at the Las Vegas strike for evidence of that.
5. The second you use the word "union," any idea is dead. That's akin to yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. It creates panic.
6. Any type of "rider group" needs to concentrate on safety and possibly group insurance long before dealing with purse or other money issues. You go march into your bosses office and demand more money tomorrow and let me know how that goes. You start with issues everyone cares about, safety. You build a membership and you build clout on safety, and in time, you address money issues, but of you go in demanding more money up front, like any boss you'll be told to pound sand, and before you say "They need the top guys" they need the top guys as much as the top guys need them. This is the only game in town and it is where they are contracted to race. You no race, you get no money, and the timespan of ability to make money is narrow, can't waste it sitting out so some guy in 20th place makes more money.
7. How much profit is the promoter allowed to make, considering they take all the financial risk and have a massive overhead?
Not that what you say is a bad idea, but, can you imagine the premium for insurance when the qualifying group is comprised of motocross/supercross racers? I can see the form now, "Please list your past medical conditions (we have attached addendum pages 1 through 99 as we know you are going to need the room).

Seriously though, gate fees, etc. probably ought to be abolished.
flarider
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flarider 10/18/2011 12:57pm
10/18/2011 12:57pm
crewshin wrote:
Do you guys ride? Do you know how expensive this sport is? Wtf. So what you guys are saying is that these kids are supposed to...
Do you guys ride? Do you know how expensive this sport is? Wtf.

So what you guys are saying is that these kids are supposed to pay their own way to some shady local race to possibly win $500 - $1000 bucks per week? Minus the gas, tires and parts they trashed in the process. At the pro level... bikes don't last like slower riders think they do. Which means you bring that same roached out pos to A1 and try to compete. You can not make a living doing what you are stating... unless you are talking about a minimum wage fast food kind of living.
No, I have absolutely no idea of the costs to race or run a team....no idea
flarider
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flarider 10/18/2011 12:59pm
10/18/2011 12:59pm
dkg wrote:
Not that what you say is a bad idea, but, can you imagine the premium for insurance when the qualifying group is comprised of motocross/supercross racers...
Not that what you say is a bad idea, but, can you imagine the premium for insurance when the qualifying group is comprised of motocross/supercross racers? I can see the form now, "Please list your past medical conditions (we have attached addendum pages 1 through 99 as we know you are going to need the room).

Seriously though, gate fees, etc. probably ought to be abolished.
AMA has life and dismemberment, why not catastrophic? Why not some plan that covers injuries sustained only during their events, not home or elsewhere?
crewshin
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crewshin 10/18/2011 1:00pm
10/18/2011 1:00pm
crewshin wrote:
Do you guys ride? Do you know how expensive this sport is? Wtf. So what you guys are saying is that these kids are supposed to...
Do you guys ride? Do you know how expensive this sport is? Wtf.

So what you guys are saying is that these kids are supposed to pay their own way to some shady local race to possibly win $500 - $1000 bucks per week? Minus the gas, tires and parts they trashed in the process. At the pro level... bikes don't last like slower riders think they do. Which means you bring that same roached out pos to A1 and try to compete. You can not make a living doing what you are stating... unless you are talking about a minimum wage fast food kind of living.
flarider wrote:
No, I have absolutely no idea of the costs to race or run a team....no idea
Interesting... but I didn't quote you.
gsxr6
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gsxr6 10/18/2011 1:08pm
10/18/2011 1:08pm
gsxr6 wrote:
again feld plays broke with the number 2 motorsport in america. i bet they got a few million up there holes at least!
flarider wrote:
So, again, your proposal is to just pull a million dollars a week out of their asses for 17 weeks....$17 million...just pull it out of their...
So, again, your proposal is to just pull a million dollars a week out of their asses for 17 weeks....$17 million...just pull it out of their ass?
(16 if you take out Daytona, run by DIS and not Feld)
again a small ticket increase could cover a lot. and just like the mec it could be 500000 up front or 50000 a year for twenty years paid from a cd or other interest bearing account. if there was a million up for grabs every round, broadcast tv would be all over it which would also increase revenue. as for daytona let the track pay for it. whats attendance like at a average daytona sx? 250000 people? does it sell out? i have no idea but daytona could afford a huge purse the easiest of all!
gsxr6
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gsxr6 10/18/2011 1:10pm
10/18/2011 1:10pm
my local towns golf pro am purse makes the best sx purse look sad! surely they could do way better. at least its not like a gp where u pay to play is the best argument they have against fair payout.
HatersSuck
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HatersSuck 10/18/2011 1:24pm
10/18/2011 1:24pm Edited Date/Time 10/18/2011 1:25pm
The problem is the riders really don't know any better. They are just happy to be there. There minds and wallets were trained at the Amateur level to pay to play.

Unions are a great thing and anyone has the right to form one. The AMA can't do shit about it. The problem is if your top guys don't buy in then everyone is screwed. They won't because they don't have a dog in the fight. They are making the big money so all is good in there mind.

When all is said and done the 20-40 place guys are just there to say they were there. Pretty fucking dumb if you ask me.
flarider
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flarider 10/18/2011 1:26pm
10/18/2011 1:26pm
gsxr6 wrote:
again feld plays broke with the number 2 motorsport in america. i bet they got a few million up there holes at least!
flarider wrote:
So, again, your proposal is to just pull a million dollars a week out of their asses for 17 weeks....$17 million...just pull it out of their...
So, again, your proposal is to just pull a million dollars a week out of their asses for 17 weeks....$17 million...just pull it out of their ass?
(16 if you take out Daytona, run by DIS and not Feld)
gsxr6 wrote:
again a small ticket increase could cover a lot. and just like the mec it could be 500000 up front or 50000 a year for twenty...
again a small ticket increase could cover a lot. and just like the mec it could be 500000 up front or 50000 a year for twenty years paid from a cd or other interest bearing account. if there was a million up for grabs every round, broadcast tv would be all over it which would also increase revenue. as for daytona let the track pay for it. whats attendance like at a average daytona sx? 250000 people? does it sell out? i have no idea but daytona could afford a huge purse the easiest of all!
You think 250,000 show up for the Daytona SX? Really? That's likely one of the lowest attended races of the series.

You still have not explained where $17 Million is supposed to come from....a million dollars a week.

Also, if you think the purse is the determining factor in getting TV, you're out of touch. Purse has little to do with it, it has to do with ratings. MX is an extremely niche sport, like surfing. Surfing has huge purses, don't see that on NBC each week. Even if every MX racer in America watched MX on TV, it would barely be a blip on the Nielsen Ratings radar.
bents
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bents 10/18/2011 1:57pm
10/18/2011 1:57pm
HatersSuck wrote:
The problem is the riders really don't know any better. They are just happy to be there. There minds and wallets were trained at the Amateur...
The problem is the riders really don't know any better. They are just happy to be there. There minds and wallets were trained at the Amateur level to pay to play.

Unions are a great thing and anyone has the right to form one. The AMA can't do shit about it. The problem is if your top guys don't buy in then everyone is screwed. They won't because they don't have a dog in the fight. They are making the big money so all is good in there mind.

When all is said and done the 20-40 place guys are just there to say they were there. Pretty fucking dumb if you ask me.
Totally true. And risking life and limb while being able to say exactly that. I also can't see the top dogs having an attitude that speaks to the greater good as you are suggesting.
Dont_Hate_The_Message 10/18/2011 1:57pm
10/18/2011 1:57pm
Ten small reasons for a possible Union:

1.Create a standard medical insurance policy that covers all pro supercross/motocross riders. Top 100 riders from previous year.
2. Create a disability insurance policy . Part of AMA Rider membership fee. Top 100 riders from previous year.
3. Create an outdoor motocross series that doesnt require going accross the country three times. Think Supercross West and East Coast series but only for outdoors. Why does the AMA make these guys go back and forth. Have all the West Coast races in the beginning then go to the East. Say Pala, Hangtown, Washougal, Colorado, Texas, Red Bud then two break then Millville, Budds Creek, High Point , Unadilla, Steel City, Southwick ....UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM MOST PRIVATEERS ARE DONE RACING AFTER TWO YEARS...THere almost like FUCK IT...THis is too damn expensive
4. Require that All OEM Teams have three Riders - With a Max Contract # from OEM Bike Manufacturer and also a min #... but there other sponsorship money is unlimited.
5. Create a standard pay system that rewards the top 40 riders in each discipline ...
6.Remove entry Fee - Motocross might be the only sport that requires professionals to pay to participate...At least for top 100 riders from previous year
7. Stop the rule changes on a HOW MY ASS FEELS TODAY...Example: THIS YEAR AT WASHOUGAL A PRIVATEER SHOWED UP with a 2012 KXF450 and wasnt allowed to race but then almost two weeks later RV is allowed to ride the same damn bike. ... A UNION WILL STOP THIS NONSENSE IN A HEARTBEAT...Because there would be an onsite committee to settle such greivences.
8. Deal with safety issues ...Chad Reed can chair this committee
9. Creating a better amateur system that is more affordable ....Right now these guys are homeschooled and rolling around in Motorhomes for 10 months out of the year. Then at the end of the amateur career 2-3 guys get salaried rides.
10. A rider union would create better communication between organizations and Riders ... Everyone is on the same page, with the both sides understanding what each party needs to do grow the sport and show people what an incredible show motocross really is.

The money is there...But thats a long discussion that needs to be worked out between both sides. ultimately that will attract not only more pros to compete but also create outside interest. Right now it seems to be the same money exchanging hands year after year. Think 2012 450's at 9000k. Its basically the same racers buying those bikes. At some point they realize its not worth the investment. Thus you need new buyers or a new fan base.

respect!
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 10/18/2011 2:43pm
10/18/2011 2:43pm
The flaw in that theory is that those people won't be making 300K when the industry goes bye bye. Which will happen if something doesn't change.


What industry are you talking about? If dirt biking goes away, even just professional MX, it's not going to be because riders most people don't pay attention to aren't getting paid enough, and paying them more isn't going to change whatever dynamics drive the off road motorcycling into the ground.

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HatersSuck
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HatersSuck 10/18/2011 2:46pm
10/18/2011 2:46pm Edited Date/Time 10/18/2011 2:48pm
Funny how DC stays away from this type of stuff.

His absence from this type of discussion speaks volumes
andymoto
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andymoto 10/18/2011 2:55pm
10/18/2011 2:55pm
We need Feld more than they need us.
gsxr6
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gsxr6 10/18/2011 4:25pm
10/18/2011 4:25pm
is sx/mx bigger than indycar? we need a mark cuban type to buy the sport and advance it marketing wise ala dana from ufc.just as rap music once played to the mainstream not just gangsters Supercross shall crossover to be popular with non riders. i truly believe we could match nascar in popularity. right now the sport showcases the machines and is limited in appeal. i truly believe it could be the number 1 racing sport in north america with the right moves by ownership. seriously nascar is the competition! would probably be easy.
slipdog
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slipdog 10/18/2011 4:39pm
10/18/2011 4:39pm
jhansen510 wrote:
Alright all you message board wizards. In your opinion what are some viable solutions to solve the problem of pro mx/sx payscale or lack there of...
Alright all you message board wizards. In your opinion what are some viable solutions to solve the problem of pro mx/sx payscale or lack there of. Be that a riders union or someting else. This is a problem that needs to be addressed, and I would like to know what some of you guys think. Also whats your opinion on pro amateurs being taken advantage of? I guess I will use Shawn Rife for example. Thanks for the input guys.
Not even Jeff Stanton could make a riders union work, the powers that be shut it down!http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb468/slipdog1/union.jpg" class="img-fluid" />
slipdog
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slipdog 10/18/2011 4:42pm
10/18/2011 4:42pm
Try that again!

Sherwood
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Sherwood 10/18/2011 4:53pm
10/18/2011 4:53pm
The real question is how much does someone riding in 20th deserve.
gsxr6
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gsxr6 10/18/2011 5:26pm
10/18/2011 5:26pm
id say at least 5000 no sweat.
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gsxr6 10/18/2011 5:28pm
10/18/2011 5:28pm Edited Date/Time 10/18/2011 5:28pm
. 17 x 5000 is 85000. is that even close to enough? would be if his ride and expenses were paid for. to go it alone? i wonder if a top 20 privateer can do a supercross season on that kind of money. probably not. but it would be a good start!
flarider
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flarider 10/18/2011 6:13pm
10/18/2011 6:13pm
gsxr6 wrote:
. 17 x 5000 is 85000. is that even close to enough? would be if his ride and expenses were paid for. to go it alone...
. 17 x 5000 is 85000. is that even close to enough? would be if his ride and expenses were paid for. to go it alone? i wonder if a top 20 privateer can do a supercross season on that kind of money. probably not. but it would be a good start!
You still haven't told everyone from who's ass they're to pull a million dollars a week, $17 Million total
jhansen510
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jhansen510 10/18/2011 6:30pm
10/18/2011 6:30pm Edited Date/Time 10/18/2011 6:31pm
I dont know that a million dollar purse at each race is possible or that it will solve anything. But there has got to be a better way. To those of you that had real input into this thread. Thank You. Its good to know that not everyone is a mindless sheap and that some people care about the future of this amazing sport.
JustMX
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JustMX 10/18/2011 6:38pm
10/18/2011 6:38pm
I guess this is what happens when the "occupy wall street" mentality infects Motocross.

POWER TO THE PRIVATEERS!

WE ARE THE BOTTOM 50% (11th-20th),

or in MX,

WE ARE THE BOTTOM 75% (11th-40th)
gsxr6
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gsxr6 10/18/2011 6:42pm
10/18/2011 6:42pm
each race should get a big sponsor ala other sports. that would pay half that money. pay the other half from tv revenue. sports like nfl get what 50 percent of the revenue? lets see 30 percent of the gate and half the tv advertising go to the purse. if they make the riders into highly publicized millionaire rockstars, mainstream appeal will follow as will the big big money .

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