David Pingree; Undercover KTM employee.

wullyc
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wullyc 8/9/2011 1:09pm
8/9/2011 1:09pm
What are you going off then
redrider52
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redrider52 8/9/2011 1:27pm
8/9/2011 1:27pm
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the bike at Lommel and he says it doesn't sound like Alessi's or Shorts bike. He thinks it may be a 400
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Xerxes 8/9/2011 1:34pm
8/9/2011 1:34pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
I didn't literally mean cheating. I meant cheating as in giving a false idea of the bikes true potential
Deetsmx wrote:
Cairoli isn't on a 350...
mccread wrote:
yes he is.
Thats BS McCready. No one truly knows what cc's his bike is - remember Yamaha when he went from 380 to 440 in one season depending on the track. But what we do know is that he IS running a Carb on that bike - not EFI. Which speaks volumes.
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Deetsmx 8/9/2011 1:35pm
8/9/2011 1:35pm
wullyc wrote:
What are you going off then
Firsthand knowledge, not going to say from who. Enough people know it isn't that I'm ok mentioning it without getting anyone specific in trouble. Don't the starts Nagl and cairoli are pulling all the time say enough? You've got 2 guys here who were holeshot masters and neither one has started good on that bike. And for the record, I like ktm's.

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Faceaz
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Faceaz 8/9/2011 1:43pm
8/9/2011 1:43pm Edited Date/Time 8/9/2011 1:50pm
Deetsmx wrote:
Cairoli isn't on a 350...
mccread wrote:
yes he is.
Deetsmx wrote:
No, he isn't. You are going off speculation, I'm not.
The only way you can make that claim, is if you've physically measured it. So, spill the beans, what's the bore & stroke. Unless you know the bore / stroke, you are speculating. Surely you would know it, if it's "First Hand" Knowledge.. LOL.. Sound means very little, IMO compression ratios have just as much influence on sound as CC's.

Just to buy into the arguement for a minute, if it is 400cc. The anti 350 people arguement is: there's no replacement for displacement. But @ 400cc it's still less CC's, so how come it get's holeshots? Also, since AC is on a 350 based machine (I think we all can agree on that even if it's bored), then are we agreeing based off his starts that 450 is indeed more power than even pros need?
希望
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希望 8/9/2011 1:49pm
8/9/2011 1:49pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
I didn't literally mean cheating. I meant cheating as in giving a false idea of the bikes true potential
Deetsmx wrote:
Cairoli isn't on a 350...
mccread wrote:
yes he is.
This debate has been going on now for the better part of 2 years.

Is he or is he not on a 350cc machine?
希望
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希望 8/9/2011 1:50pm
8/9/2011 1:50pm
So what are Mitch's 250f bikes - closer to 300cc?
YellowZonker 8/9/2011 1:51pm
8/9/2011 1:51pm
wullyc wrote:
What are you going off then
Deetsmx wrote:
Firsthand knowledge, not going to say from who. Enough people know it isn't that I'm ok mentioning it without getting anyone specific in trouble. Don't the...
Firsthand knowledge, not going to say from who. Enough people know it isn't that I'm ok mentioning it without getting anyone specific in trouble. Don't the starts Nagl and cairoli are pulling all the time say enough? You've got 2 guys here who were holeshot masters and neither one has started good on that bike. And for the record, I like ktm's.
Wait, you have firsthand knowledge that someone else told you? That's pretty much the definition of knowledge NOT being firsthand.

There's just so much stupid in this thread.
Deetsmx
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Deetsmx 8/9/2011 1:56pm
8/9/2011 1:56pm
mccread wrote:
yes he is.
Deetsmx wrote:
No, he isn't. You are going off speculation, I'm not.
Faceaz wrote:
The only way you can make that claim, is if you've physically measured it. So, spill the beans, what's the bore & stroke. Unless you know...
The only way you can make that claim, is if you've physically measured it. So, spill the beans, what's the bore & stroke. Unless you know the bore / stroke, you are speculating. Surely you would know it, if it's "First Hand" Knowledge.. LOL.. Sound means very little, IMO compression ratios have just as much influence on sound as CC's.

Just to buy into the arguement for a minute, if it is 400cc. The anti 350 people arguement is: there's no replacement for displacement. But @ 400cc it's still less CC's, so how come it get's holeshots? Also, since AC is on a 350 based machine (I think we all can agree on that even if it's bored), then are we agreeing based off his starts that 450 is indeed more power than even pros need?
You don't have to believe me, I know the facts and where I got them from. I'm not just gonna sit here and make stuff up for the sake of making it up. Just because I haven't measured the bore and stroke doesn't mean it's not true.
Faceaz
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Faceaz 8/9/2011 2:02pm
8/9/2011 2:02pm
Deetsmx wrote:
No, he isn't. You are going off speculation, I'm not.
Faceaz wrote:
The only way you can make that claim, is if you've physically measured it. So, spill the beans, what's the bore & stroke. Unless you know...
The only way you can make that claim, is if you've physically measured it. So, spill the beans, what's the bore & stroke. Unless you know the bore / stroke, you are speculating. Surely you would know it, if it's "First Hand" Knowledge.. LOL.. Sound means very little, IMO compression ratios have just as much influence on sound as CC's.

Just to buy into the arguement for a minute, if it is 400cc. The anti 350 people arguement is: there's no replacement for displacement. But @ 400cc it's still less CC's, so how come it get's holeshots? Also, since AC is on a 350 based machine (I think we all can agree on that even if it's bored), then are we agreeing based off his starts that 450 is indeed more power than even pros need?
Deetsmx wrote:
You don't have to believe me, I know the facts and where I got them from. I'm not just gonna sit here and make stuff up...
You don't have to believe me, I know the facts and where I got them from. I'm not just gonna sit here and make stuff up for the sake of making it up. Just because I haven't measured the bore and stroke doesn't mean it's not true.
But that does mean it's not "First Hand", in which case it's speculation. If you do have intimate knowledge, what CC's is he running exactly, what is the bore / stroke?
aFACEdismembered 8/9/2011 3:16pm
8/9/2011 3:16pm Edited Date/Time 8/9/2011 3:18pm
redrider52 wrote:
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the...
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the bike at Lommel and he says it doesn't sound like Alessi's or Shorts bike. He thinks it may be a 400
So Chad Reed compares the sound regs to them sounding like vaccums and Mathes says they sound like 400's. I've never heard a vaccum that sounds like a 350. Much less a 400 or 450. What a legal 350 sounds like here is louder than in Europe so by that, if it sounds like a 400 it must be a 450... but the other 450's don't sound like the 350's. Do you see the flaw in that logic? I dont know whats in it... but comparing the same bike with different sound regulations to roughly determine displacement size is silly.
Deetsmx
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Deetsmx 8/9/2011 3:36pm
8/9/2011 3:36pm
Faceaz wrote:
But that does mean it's not "First Hand", in which case it's speculation. If you do have intimate knowledge, what CC's is he running exactly, what...
But that does mean it's not "First Hand", in which case it's speculation. If you do have intimate knowledge, what CC's is he running exactly, what is the bore / stroke?
So the guys that build and measure the motor are the only ones who aren't speculating. Got it. Excuse my misinterpretation of "firsthand".
Roscoe33
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Roscoe33 8/9/2011 3:37pm
8/9/2011 3:37pm Edited Date/Time 8/9/2011 3:39pm
redrider52 wrote:
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the...
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the bike at Lommel and he says it doesn't sound like Alessi's or Shorts bike. He thinks it may be a 400
aFACEdismembered wrote:
So Chad Reed compares the sound regs to them sounding like vaccums and Mathes says they sound like 400's. I've never heard a vaccum that sounds...
So Chad Reed compares the sound regs to them sounding like vaccums and Mathes says they sound like 400's. I've never heard a vaccum that sounds like a 350. Much less a 400 or 450. What a legal 350 sounds like here is louder than in Europe so by that, if it sounds like a 400 it must be a 450... but the other 450's don't sound like the 350's. Do you see the flaw in that logic? I dont know whats in it... but comparing the same bike with different sound regulations to roughly determine displacement size is silly.
I agree.
222 bike is trick it's A GP bike, fine tuning is what it make it sound unique. I don't know why Mathes is fixated with CC's

KTM Canada Factory bikes are SXS models right from Austria and what I have seen first hand the bikes must stay stock, this is used to do R&D with ties back to Austria.
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zippy895 8/9/2011 4:05pm
8/9/2011 4:05pm
maybe its a stroker motor. maybe the intake is modified.maybe the low noise exhaust system has something special going on.maybe the wheels and drive train are wicked light.maybe,,,,
redrider52
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redrider52 8/9/2011 4:35pm
8/9/2011 4:35pm
redrider52 wrote:
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the...
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the bike at Lommel and he says it doesn't sound like Alessi's or Shorts bike. He thinks it may be a 400
aFACEdismembered wrote:
So Chad Reed compares the sound regs to them sounding like vaccums and Mathes says they sound like 400's. I've never heard a vaccum that sounds...
So Chad Reed compares the sound regs to them sounding like vaccums and Mathes says they sound like 400's. I've never heard a vaccum that sounds like a 350. Much less a 400 or 450. What a legal 350 sounds like here is louder than in Europe so by that, if it sounds like a 400 it must be a 450... but the other 450's don't sound like the 350's. Do you see the flaw in that logic? I dont know whats in it... but comparing the same bike with different sound regulations to roughly determine displacement size is silly.
Matthes didn't say it sounded like a 400, he said Cairoli and Nagl's bikes didn't sound like the other 350's over there. With that and there performance throughout the series I can see why everyone believes their not 350s. He has been a mechanic in the motocross industry for a good while so I trust Matthes's opinion over 90% of you guys on Vital.
machine
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machine 8/9/2011 4:42pm
8/9/2011 4:42pm
Maybe one day the 350 mystery will be solved.....Dry
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gazzar70 8/9/2011 4:42pm
8/9/2011 4:42pm
This has got out of hand guys. All I was saying is that Ping is now working as an undercover PR guy for KTM. I know he had a little problem with a piston and siezure in his 125 days and he put down KTM for awhile but maybe KTM has now put him on the payroll. Keep your friends close and keep your enemies even closer is what I'm sayin.
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Bauer 8/9/2011 4:49pm
8/9/2011 4:49pm
72kiteboarder wrote:
Hangtown Opener last year........... [img]http://moto.mpora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Alessi-holeshot.jpg[/img]
Hangtown Opener last year...........

Mike Brown looks like he's headed right for Guy B or LeBig or whoever that is crouched down taking a pic...

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Electro21 8/9/2011 5:23pm
8/9/2011 5:23pm
72kiteboarder wrote:
Hangtown Opener last year........... [img]http://moto.mpora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Alessi-holeshot.jpg[/img]
Hangtown Opener last year...........

Bauer wrote:
Mike Brown looks like he's headed right for Guy B or LeBig or whoever that is crouched down taking a pic...
Either Guyb or whoever that is crouched there, probably got a pretty sweet picture.
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rileymx 8/11/2011 8:09am
8/11/2011 8:09am
redrider52 wrote:
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the...
Matthes just said in the latest PulpMx show that he still doesn't think that Cairoli is on a legit 350. He said was listening to the bike at Lommel and he says it doesn't sound like Alessi's or Shorts bike. He thinks it may be a 400
aFACEdismembered wrote:
So Chad Reed compares the sound regs to them sounding like vaccums and Mathes says they sound like 400's. I've never heard a vaccum that sounds...
So Chad Reed compares the sound regs to them sounding like vaccums and Mathes says they sound like 400's. I've never heard a vaccum that sounds like a 350. Much less a 400 or 450. What a legal 350 sounds like here is louder than in Europe so by that, if it sounds like a 400 it must be a 450... but the other 450's don't sound like the 350's. Do you see the flaw in that logic? I dont know whats in it... but comparing the same bike with different sound regulations to roughly determine displacement size is silly.
redrider52 wrote:
Matthes didn't say it sounded like a 400, he said Cairoli and Nagl's bikes didn't sound like the other 350's over there. With that and there...
Matthes didn't say it sounded like a 400, he said Cairoli and Nagl's bikes didn't sound like the other 350's over there. With that and there performance throughout the series I can see why everyone believes their not 350s. He has been a mechanic in the motocross industry for a good while so I trust Matthes's opinion over 90% of you guys on Vital.
roczen and herlings bikes sound diferent then all other 250 in mxgp, they even look to be faster...........so that should mean they are cheating since 249 is the max cc alowed........but then roczen said his us bike was faster then his gp one, so maybe he was in fact running a 350 when he won las vegas...!!!!!!!
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jeffro503 8/11/2011 8:26am
8/11/2011 8:26am
Wow......this thread is an entire fishing expedition gone wild. Good to see so much "fact based" knowledge goin' on. sheeeesh.
jakefortyeight 8/11/2011 8:53am
8/11/2011 8:53am Edited Date/Time 8/11/2011 8:53am
72kiteboarder wrote:
Hangtown Opener last year........... [img]http://moto.mpora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Alessi-holeshot.jpg[/img]
Hangtown Opener last year...........

Bauer wrote:
Mike Brown looks like he's headed right for Guy B or LeBig or whoever that is crouched down taking a pic...
Pretty sure that is Steve "Fractured Vet" Emter of motovationsports.com. And yes he gets some pretty good shots.

BTW - Surprised this photo didn't show up. I thought the argument was over after seeing this happen. Seems pretty obvious to me that on a long, loamy uphill start with the only 350's in the moto leading the way the naysayers were pretty much shut down...

Big
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Big 8/11/2011 10:27am
8/11/2011 10:27am
Yamaha wasn't 400 (GP)after a few races because they couldn't make any good starts. They made it 425 after a few rounds and it was topsecret of course.Heard it from the horses mouth.............
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Ing 8/11/2011 11:46am
8/11/2011 11:46am
Well..... I heard first hand from a guy whose brother use to work for a company almost like KTM that Caroli's bike is definately between a 250 and 500. I can't tell you who, but it IS a reliable source. Oh, the guys that can tell a bike has 50cc more displacement from listening to it is one talented SOB. At least that's what I heard.
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burn1986 8/11/2011 12:19pm
8/11/2011 12:19pm
Cairoli is a badass, and Alessi is a badass starter. Cairoli makes it work in spite of the displacement. Mike is just a badass starter, regardless of bike. The 350 is still under powered though, and seemed like a good idea at the time.
Faceaz
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Faceaz 8/11/2011 1:05pm
8/11/2011 1:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2011 1:05pm
burn1986 wrote:
Cairoli is a badass, and Alessi is a badass starter. Cairoli makes it work in spite of the displacement. Mike is just a badass starter, regardless...
Cairoli is a badass, and Alessi is a badass starter. Cairoli makes it work in spite of the displacement. Mike is just a badass starter, regardless of bike. The 350 is still under powered though, and seemed like a good idea at the time.
It's commical that people are trying to write off a bike that's winning Championships. IMO, it seems like a better idea now, than it ever has. Especially when even the anti 350 guys say "it's a great bike, just underpowered @ the top level". So regardless of the power arguement @ the top level, it has enough power for 99.99% of the population.
burn1986
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burn1986 8/11/2011 1:14pm
8/11/2011 1:14pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2011 1:15pm
Faceaz wrote:
It's commical that people are trying to write off a bike that's winning Championships. IMO, it seems like a better idea now, than it ever has...
It's commical that people are trying to write off a bike that's winning Championships. IMO, it seems like a better idea now, than it ever has. Especially when even the anti 350 guys say "it's a great bike, just underpowered @ the top level". So regardless of the power arguement @ the top level, it has enough power for 99.99% of the population.
Well, like I said Cairoli is badass.
redrider52
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redrider52 8/11/2011 1:46pm
8/11/2011 1:46pm
If this is supposed to be the bike of the future then why is KTM even backing down the hype of that bike. Alessi is no longer on the 350, Short probably wont ride the 350 next year if he stays at KTM, Dungey won't even sign with KTM if he has to ride a 350. They had to build him a custom efi 450 to test.

There is no rule against having the 350 bored out as long as its is within the rule limits so I see nothing wrong with increasing displacement to reach peak performance, but still to call it a 350 and deny that its bored out is a little much.

From the AMA rule book: Cylinder bore may be increased to achieve the displacement limit on motorcycles homologated for competition, provided that any kits or parts used to increase engine displacement (to the approved class limit) must use items that have been approved by AMA Pro Racing

From the FIM rule book: MX1: motorcycles of Cat. I, Group A1, over 175cc up to 250cc for 2-stroke engines and over 290cc up to 450cc for 4-stroke engines
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rileymx 8/11/2011 2:01pm
8/11/2011 2:01pm
i like the one that ktm had to bild a 450 efi just for dungey to test and see if he would sign with them...........
Faceaz
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Faceaz 8/11/2011 5:44pm
8/11/2011 5:44pm
redrider52 wrote:
If this is supposed to be the bike of the future then why is KTM even backing down the hype of that bike. Alessi is no...
If this is supposed to be the bike of the future then why is KTM even backing down the hype of that bike. Alessi is no longer on the 350, Short probably wont ride the 350 next year if he stays at KTM, Dungey won't even sign with KTM if he has to ride a 350. They had to build him a custom efi 450 to test.

There is no rule against having the 350 bored out as long as its is within the rule limits so I see nothing wrong with increasing displacement to reach peak performance, but still to call it a 350 and deny that its bored out is a little much.

From the AMA rule book: Cylinder bore may be increased to achieve the displacement limit on motorcycles homologated for competition, provided that any kits or parts used to increase engine displacement (to the approved class limit) must use items that have been approved by AMA Pro Racing

From the FIM rule book: MX1: motorcycles of Cat. I, Group A1, over 175cc up to 250cc for 2-stroke engines and over 290cc up to 450cc for 4-stroke engines
IMO, the only way to get a larger bore approved by AMA, is if it's made available to the public. In either case it would be public knowledge if such a kit was approved by the AMA (availble to public or not), I don't know of one.

Post a reply to: David Pingree; Undercover KTM employee.