Let's learn something today (heat stroke related)

GuyB
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 4:26am
Josh Lichtle's death at Red Bud was a tragedy for sure. It'd be even more of a tragedy if we didn't all learn something from it.

With temps up all across the country, I spotted this article on my iPhone today, and figured everyone could benefit from it.

Go easy on your workout as the weather heats up
http://usat.ly/qxEjHJ
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7/11/2011 9:34pm Edited Date/Time 7/11/2011 9:34pm
We (as in the MO crowd) had a guy in my old riding spot die of a heat stroke the same weekend Lichtle died. Terrible tragedy for all involved.
wet paint
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7/11/2011 9:36pm
There are some good points in that article, like what to look for and early symptoms.
teggers
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7/11/2011 10:25pm
The problem I see is not the riding part of it. I remember many motos where I was functioning just fine, air moving through all my stuff.....them I drop the bike. I had to pick the bike up and restart.....I was finished; done....on every level. The heat took over in seconds. There is no way to redirect that heat. Helmet, Jersey, undershirt, pads, underwear, pants, boots with 2 socks sometimes.

When I heard of this tragedy, I thought of these times, many times when I scared myself by getting so hot because of no air movement. I really don't think this is a racing issue, but a stopping issue.

It is only so much amazing that he put so much more energy into starting the bike after 27 minutes. This guy was driven! Really, so driven.

Fuck. This is not right, but It can not be fixed at the MX Sports level.
CR250Rider
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7/11/2011 10:34pm
The early warning signs of heat illness are cramps, dizziness and headaches, nausea and thirst.
During heat stroke, the body temperature rises above 103 degrees Fahrenheit, your skin becomes red, hot and dry.
You have to heed those early warning signs. As heat illness progresses, your brain becomes confused and won't tell you when to stop.

The Shop

7/11/2011 10:35pm
teggers wrote:
The problem I see is not the riding part of it. I remember many motos where I was functioning just fine, air moving through all my...
The problem I see is not the riding part of it. I remember many motos where I was functioning just fine, air moving through all my stuff.....them I drop the bike. I had to pick the bike up and restart.....I was finished; done....on every level. The heat took over in seconds. There is no way to redirect that heat. Helmet, Jersey, undershirt, pads, underwear, pants, boots with 2 socks sometimes.

When I heard of this tragedy, I thought of these times, many times when I scared myself by getting so hot because of no air movement. I really don't think this is a racing issue, but a stopping issue.

It is only so much amazing that he put so much more energy into starting the bike after 27 minutes. This guy was driven! Really, so driven.

Fuck. This is not right, but It can not be fixed at the MX Sports level.
x2 - I fell 3 corners from the end of a 40 minute moto last summer and it destroyed me! I was that gone I needed someone to take my helmet off me when I got back to the pits. Luckily we had a bucket of ice water nearby to dunk my head in.
level
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7/11/2011 10:39pm
I worked in the yard a few weeks back in blistering sun for about 2 hours straight. I was doing heavy physical activity and started feeling very weak. I was drinking water and when I stopped I poured some cold water on my head and just sat down and sweated bad for about 30 minutes.

I seemed to be fine but my question is:
Does heatstroke happen right away or can it set in later like a couple hours or the next day? I'm assuming it happens pretty rapidly but I'm paranoid about it now and just curious.
GuyB
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7/11/2011 10:39pm
teggers wrote:
The problem I see is not the riding part of it. I remember many motos where I was functioning just fine, air moving through all my...
The problem I see is not the riding part of it. I remember many motos where I was functioning just fine, air moving through all my stuff.....them I drop the bike. I had to pick the bike up and restart.....I was finished; done....on every level. The heat took over in seconds. There is no way to redirect that heat. Helmet, Jersey, undershirt, pads, underwear, pants, boots with 2 socks sometimes.

When I heard of this tragedy, I thought of these times, many times when I scared myself by getting so hot because of no air movement. I really don't think this is a racing issue, but a stopping issue.

It is only so much amazing that he put so much more energy into starting the bike after 27 minutes. This guy was driven! Really, so driven.

Fuck. This is not right, but It can not be fixed at the MX Sports level.
Tim, I think you're wrong on the last line. They're not against shortening motos when needed. But that's another topic.
teggers
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7/11/2011 11:41pm
Please start the new topic.
Bauer
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7/11/2011 11:52pm
They may not be against shortening motos, and according to DC they've had a plan in place for them to shorten motos if Doc Bodnar and the medical crew request it. The only problem is that Doc Bodnar was totally unaware of such a provision until last Monday. I imagine it would be hard to implement a plan that you didn't know existed.

I just hope it never happens again.
drmarkr
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7/12/2011 12:02am
level wrote:
I worked in the yard a few weeks back in blistering sun for about 2 hours straight. I was doing heavy physical activity and started feeling...
I worked in the yard a few weeks back in blistering sun for about 2 hours straight. I was doing heavy physical activity and started feeling very weak. I was drinking water and when I stopped I poured some cold water on my head and just sat down and sweated bad for about 30 minutes.

I seemed to be fine but my question is:
Does heatstroke happen right away or can it set in later like a couple hours or the next day? I'm assuming it happens pretty rapidly but I'm paranoid about it now and just curious.
Heatstroke is an "immediate" event. By definition, it is the inability of the body to properly dissipate heat being produced *now*. The result is tissue damage/death at the cellular level initially, and ultimately the organ level. There is no "delayed onset" heat stroke per se, but the kidneys and, less commonly, the liver can take a day or two to show the effects of their damage from hyperthermia.
teggers
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7/12/2011 12:26am Edited Date/Time 7/12/2011 12:35am
Thanks Bauer, Dr MK, Guy B...on talking about this. Smart people with information.....It is heartbreaking.
kongols
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7/12/2011 12:41am
Two month ago mayor of Riga was participating in Marathon of Riga and wanted to prove that he can run the distance of apr. 20 miles, but collapsed just 200 yards from a finish line from a heat stroke. He had damage to his brain and internal organs especially liver and kidney, due to the lack of oxygen in his blood. He was transported to Germany and kept in coma for a long time. Luckily he had full recovery and went back to work yesterday.
ocscottie
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7/12/2011 12:48am
Remember in an earlier thread where everyone was tossing out ideas and someone inquired if it was possible for core body temps to be monitored? At the time it sounded like a pretty far fetched idea, but...

Tonight on the Discovery show "Surviving The Cut" where the Navy trained special forces and were doing a prolonged swim in the ocean, and before the session every guy swallowed a monitoring pill that transmits their core body temp. I thought that was pretty interesting and it reminded me of the heat stroke thread.
kongols
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7/12/2011 12:50am
ocscottie wrote:
Remember in an earlier thread where everyone was tossing out ideas and someone inquired if it was possible for core body temps to be monitored? At...
Remember in an earlier thread where everyone was tossing out ideas and someone inquired if it was possible for core body temps to be monitored? At the time it sounded like a pretty far fetched idea, but...

Tonight on the Discovery show "Surviving The Cut" where the Navy trained special forces and were doing a prolonged swim in the ocean, and before the session every guy swallowed a monitoring pill that transmits their core body temp. I thought that was pretty interesting and it reminded me of the heat stroke thread.
Good thinking.
Void Main
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7/12/2011 4:17am
Bauer wrote:
They may not be against shortening motos, and according to DC they've had a plan in place for them to shorten motos if Doc Bodnar and...
They may not be against shortening motos, and according to DC they've had a plan in place for them to shorten motos if Doc Bodnar and the medical crew request it. The only problem is that Doc Bodnar was totally unaware of such a provision until last Monday. I imagine it would be hard to implement a plan that you didn't know existed.

I just hope it never happens again.
I'm not sure that is a good idea. If I were Doc Bodnar I would feel obligated to shorten every single moto no matter how hot it is because if someone dies from heat stroke and he didn't shorten the moto people would be blaming him for it. Is there a specific temperature/humidity combination that people become susceptible to heat stroke? I don't think there is but if there is then that should be the gauge. If there isn't and everyone is susceptible to heat stroke no matter what the temperature, or that everyone's heat stroke temperature is different then there there is no way Doc Bodnar can call it anyway.
mxlaw
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7/12/2011 4:44am
I had a heat stroke at Lorettas two years ago as a spectator. It amazed me how fast I went from feeling too hot to being in an emergency situation. I ended up in an ambulance with tachacardia and a core temp of 104.
I am sharing my symptoms as a warning. First thing I noticed I looked at my arm, it was no longer sweating, felt dry and was red. They rushed me to the creek, put me in and called an EMT, by time EMT got there I was vomiting. They tried to give me pedialite to drink but I vomited it and could not keep it down. I started fading in and out and don't remember much. The EMT looked at me and called an ambulance.
By time I got in the ambulance my heart was in tachacardia and they started an IV.
By time I got to the hospital I was shaking uncontrollably with seizures. They packed me in ice and kept IVs running. I survived, but had a really bad headache for 3 days and to this day my heat tolerance is much lower. I was drinking water, in light color clothes and in the shade and it still happened. Doctor said they saved my life by putting me in the creek immediately.
Again, in less than about five minutes I went from feeling too hot to being in critical condition- watch those around you. If they stop sweating or if their skin gets red and dry, you must act immediately!
wreckitrandy
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7/12/2011 5:03am
In August of '81 on the last lap I had to pull off and puke. I remember just barely getting my helmet off. The next recollection was being stripped off naked with cold towels all over me. The mother of another racer was a nurse and might have saved my life that day. They said I had left my bike and walked back to the pits. I was trying to crawl under a car out of my mind. She insisted I go to the hospital but, I felt much better pretty quick and had my buddies take me home. A couple of days later I was still so weak my legs trembled so I went to the doctor. He said heat exhaustion, put an IV in me and blasted me for being stupid. I was useless for months. For many years I would get sick and throw up after races. Even now, the heat just zaps me. I have to stay super hydrated to even play golf. If you stop sweating or feel sick, dizzy or faint,,,,, you're in trouble.
DC
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7/12/2011 5:03am
Bauer, that is incorrect. The doctors have had the ability to come to us since after Freestone two years ago and make any suggestions they wish to make on the heat and shortening a moto. No one -- no medical professionals, no trainers, and no riders -- came up and suggested it was too hot at Red Bud to run a regular-length moto. What happened at Michigan was a terrible,tragic event that we are all still trying to sort through, so please allow us to do that and not confuse it with the wrong information here.

DC
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DC
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7/12/2011 5:07am
And among the many ideas we have heard this week, this one last night from David Garrett is definitely worth looking into...

http://www.hotheadtechnologies.com/

DC
MX Sports
alphado
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7/12/2011 5:10am
I am running a half marathon on Sunday, looks like it will be hot and humid. I am going to be cautiously paranoid about how I feel in the heat.
SteveS
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7/12/2011 5:10am
Heat exhaustion and heat stroke are serious stuff. If you were in Boy Scouts back when I was, first aid for these (recognition, prevention, treatment) were hammered into you early and often--both for practical reasons and for advancement and badges. If you didn't have the benefit of that kind of education, you owe it to yourself to study and learn about these heat related illnesses.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/heat_exhaustion_and_heat_stroke/article_…
jndmx
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7/12/2011 5:21am
DC wrote:
And among the many ideas we have heard this week, this one last night from David Garrett is definitely worth looking into...

http://www.hotheadtechnologies.com/

DC
MX Sports
Josh passing was definitely a tragic way for this conversation to begin but technology like this could be the answer to prevention in the future.

I think a positive change to make sure this never happens again would be the best way to honor Josh's memory.
motomike137
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7/12/2011 5:40am
It has taken me a while to process this whole thing. It was a tragic event that may or may not have been preventable. I didn't know Josh personally but have been in and around motocross and more specifically Michigan motocross most of my life and it really hit home for me as I have to kids with one of them being a son that is very close to the same age as Josh. I have had a couple bouts with heat related exhaustion and one of them hit me so quickly when I thought everything was fine that I don't know how I could have seen it coming. Red Bud was a deceptive environment I think because even though the absolute temp was "only" low 90's the the amount of moisture in the ground that was evaporating back into the air was phenomenal and it was one of those afternoons where I had sweat beading on my arms at times while I stood still in the sun. I do think the conversations on here are a very good thing and hopefully these same conversations are going on at many levels above and beyond this forum. I think the one thing this should reinforce is that our sport can be a very demanding difficult survivalist environment for the participants especially in the summer and we need to treat it as such.

Godspeed Josh
IWreckALot
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7/12/2011 6:00am
I rode Muenster a year ago. We had probably put in 2 hours of seat time in 100+ temperatures. We decided to go back out for 10 more minutes. In that 10 minutes I managed to break away from the other two people I was with and I managed to ride myself in to heat exhaustion over the course of 2 hours. I wrecked a number of times and had to kick the bike over. I knew I was in trouble but I was afraid that if I didn't get the bike started and get back to the truck, I would be in more trouble so I just kept kicking. It was the most paniced I ever felt. I eventually wrecked and couldn't get back up and ended up taking all of my riding gear off except my pants and just laid in the shade until a group of guys joy riding on quads came and found me.

On the 2 hour ride home, my muscles were cramping like you wouldn't believe. Just like a charlie horse in your leg but literally in every muscle of my body. Toes, calves, stomach, back neck, fingers, arms. . . everything was cramping up. I tried to tough it out but ended up going to the hospital and the doc said I was dangerously close to a heat stroke but it stopped at heat exhaustion. My kidneys had completely shut down and I can't recall exactly the issue with my muscles. I thought the doc said the muscle mass had depleted by 80% (could be wrong about the mass but something muscle related had depleted by 80%). I'm assuming 100% and I would have been toast. They pumped about 4 or 5 bags of IV in me along with a bag of pain medicine.

Having said all of that, while I was in the heat and going downhill rabidly, I knew it was bad and that I needed help but I didn't make decisions that were reasonable. There are 100 things I could have done differently that would have been better damage control. If the AMA decides to make a ruling, I'm 100% in favor of it being enforced at the Asterisk level rather than putting it on the rider.
newmann
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7/12/2011 6:38am
DC wrote:
And among the many ideas we have heard this week, this one last night from David Garrett is definitely worth looking into...

http://www.hotheadtechnologies.com/

DC
MX Sports
Temperature inside the helmet only? I think the link I sent you would cover more bases than that with set parameters that could alert problem conditions. I understand some athletes may not want their vitals made public, but wouldn't something like this be monitored by a member of the Asterisk Medical crew? Some may not be opposed to their information being shared if something could be learned. Seems to me that monitoring an entire field of riders for 30 + 2 under racing conditions could yield a good bit of research data. Could even compare it between the 250 and 450 classes to see if the larger more powerful bikes affect the riders differently over the course of the moto. If it's more of an individual problem, the riders could be alerted and consulted on an individual basis. If the whole group is suffering and pushing the limits, then it could lay the groundwork for future changes.
lumpy790
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7/12/2011 6:41am
The symptoms they describe are a lot like dehydration. I do not like where they tell you to train inside in the AC. I feel not being used to being in the hot temps....because we surround our selves with AC makes us more susceptible.

I also think knowing what you are drinking (and eating) and ingesting the right fluids helps. We need more than just water. We also need salt.....but not to much. I have found that a 50/50 mixture of Gatorade and water was a good combination.
MXD
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7/12/2011 6:48am
What is the key part of the body to keep cool, is it the head or the core? I thought I remembered reading some where that something like 80% of the heat in your body escapes through your head and feet.
kawasa84
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7/12/2011 6:56am Edited Date/Time 7/12/2011 6:57am
Just my 2 cents, I know some people will have a problem with this but its also worth addressing:
I know through actual fans at Red Bud that on Josh's last crash he kicked his bike for a long time time, and as another post said, I too have the most problems when stopped and I restart my bike.
Plain and simple, 4 strokes can take an enormous amount of energy to restart compared to a 2 stroke.
If you deny this you simply won't admit the truth.
I live in Texas and ride in extreme heat for several months, and I always ride a 2 stroke in the summer, period!
MXEditor
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7/12/2011 7:58am
Wanted to ride today but it's gonna be 96 - rode Sunday at 91 and it was oppressive....maybe stay home make some frozen drinks and play with the new puppy instead...
SteveS
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7/12/2011 8:02am
MXD wrote:
What is the key part of the body to keep cool, is it the head or the core? I thought I remembered reading some where that...
What is the key part of the body to keep cool, is it the head or the core? I thought I remembered reading some where that something like 80% of the heat in your body escapes through your head and feet.
When it's cold out, the key is to keep the core warm. This is done by making sure you don't lose too much heat through the head. The adage is to keep your feet and hands warm, put on a hat.

On the converse, to cool down, keeping the head cool is important, but the core is also because much heat is retained there. Unfortunately we wear helmets in MX, which pretty much prevents the use of the head for cooling. Likewise, body armor diminishes the effectiveness of cooling the torso. You need airflow to cool down.

It's in the absence of airflow that things like cool suits and the like have come into use in car racing.

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