Open Classes, is it time again?

Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp
Edited Date/Time 7/17/2021 12:08pm
DF14 slows his bike down to go faster.
Local racing has too many classes with too few entrants.
E-bikes don't fit a category.
Technological improvements aren't happening.
Nobody makes an big bore 2 stroke since it doesn't have a class.
Bikes of all sizes are capable of the same general lap times.
Off Road has done it for years.
Complex rules that serve no purpose.(homologation)
When is the last time you saw a bike torn down over a protest?
40 year old bikes are still competitive.
A big bore isn't going to make other bikes obsolete.
Bigger engines have less maintenance.
HP #'s mean nothing without lap times.
There needs to be a clear premier class.
Fans would go crazy.

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JustMX
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JustMX 7/16/2021 3:44pm
7/16/2021 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 7/16/2021 3:45pm
Is there a specific question in there somewhere, other than the last time you saw a teardown?
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Rickyisms 7/16/2021 4:01pm
7/16/2021 4:01pm
A C rider on a 40 year old bike is just as fast as a C rider on a new modern bike?
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 7/16/2021 4:50pm
7/16/2021 4:50pm Edited Date/Time 7/16/2021 5:01pm
JustMX wrote:
Is there a specific question in there somewhere, other than the last time you saw a teardown?
Is it time for the Open class again?

Would you want to see Webb line
up with a KTM 510 at SX or Nationals?

Hill on an Alta? Malcolm on a 390 2t auto?
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jkoch249
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jkoch249 7/17/2021 5:35am
7/17/2021 5:35am
To your point, they should allow "works" bikes again. It might bring back some innovation and would definitely spark interest at the National events. The privateer teams wouldn't like it though.
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resetjet
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resetjet 7/17/2021 6:16am
7/17/2021 6:16am
Would not change much other then adding more classes. If we need to add a class it needs to fo the other way……privateer class!!!!
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 7/17/2021 7:06am
7/17/2021 7:06am
jkoch249 wrote:
To your point, they should allow "works" bikes again. It might bring back some innovation and would definitely spark interest at the National events. The privateer...
To your point, they should allow "works" bikes again. It might bring back some innovation and would definitely spark interest at the National events. The privateer teams wouldn't like it though.
It wouldn’t have to be works, but the 400 unit production rule limits innovation. Not necessarily a bad thing for privateers, having bigger CC equals the playing field, like John Dowd was hole shotting the 250 2 strokes works bikes with a 520 KTM, in 2001, and that’s why they killed the open class.
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spimx
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spimx 7/17/2021 7:15am
7/17/2021 7:15am
125 class would be better for the sport. That rule would kill Suzuki. Then Honda and KTM would release a monster that would kill and paralyze people. Imo they need to slow the bikes down. I would hate to see a pro killed or another one paralyzed.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 7/17/2021 7:24am
7/17/2021 7:24am
We’ve already seen plenty of people putting KX 500 and CR 500 engines in modern chassis. I’m sure there are a few millionaires, and garage mechanics that would love to build something from the ground up. IMO The tracks are the limiting factor. As we have seen with DF14, There is such a thing as too much power, and that will be self-limiting.
gt80rider
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gt80rider 7/17/2021 7:50am
7/17/2021 7:50am
F1 keeps dropping engine sizes to keep the power from being too outrageous.... mc should be doing the same.... when the top pros are downtuning, things need to be fixed
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wavslide1
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wavslide1 7/17/2021 7:59am
7/17/2021 7:59am
They were too much for most riders in the past, which made for more injuries and lower sales. For most average riders (the majority) a 250F is more than enough.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 7/17/2021 8:50am
7/17/2021 8:50am
wavslide1 wrote:
They were too much for most riders in the past, which made for more injuries and lower sales. For most average riders (the majority) a 250F...
They were too much for most riders in the past, which made for more injuries and lower sales. For most average riders (the majority) a 250F is more than enough.
Prove it on the track. If no one wants to ride them, then what is the harm? Don’t be scared, the sky will not fall.
Bearuno
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Bearuno 7/17/2021 9:23am
7/17/2021 9:23am Edited Date/Time 7/17/2021 9:30am
Dowd and others being on the 520s etc, was down to rules that then existed in the AMA that allowed up to 540cc 4ts to compete against 250cc 2ts. It was Not an "Open" Class.

I'm not 100% sure but it think there may have been something like a 175cc limit for a 4t against 125 2ts, but I don't recall anyone ever trying that at National levels.

With 85cc racing, there was a limit of 125cc for 4ts, but Honda, it's reported, knew they couldn't make a reliable / affordable, for most Mini Dads, 125cc 4t, that could go up against the 85s, so they made the 150s, and, through their power and influence, got into the 85cc class, at least for a while, in many countries sanctioning bodies.

Hey, I'd love to see genuine 'boomers' ( as in, BIG 4ts) out there, and modern large capacity 2ts instead of just the sea of 'screamers' that 4ts - even 450s - have become. But, it's not going to happen - the highest level of the sport controllers are just too spineless / in the thrall of some manufacturers.

That riders "detune" their 450? Hell, moving power around on large capacity bikes has always been a fact of life within the class. That's the beauty of the bigger engines - what can be done with the power characteristics. Riders prefer different power deliveries and levels, and a big engine, with No problem making more than enough power, enables various tunes.

For a giggle, here's an example of what could be a 'Boomer", the JBS Racing M1 (1000cc 4t Woohoo ) :

I first saw it in 2011 - made for Sidecarcross, but it seems to have disappeared. Teams can get plenty of power from the various 2ts, like Zabels and MEGAs, and the KTM 690 engine. I'd love to make a chassis to take such a thing, for some rich bastard ( I was trying to persuade a very moneyed up mate to get one, but, as I said the engine project seemed to cease to exist.) , and set me loose in my workshop , but at a height of 548mm = 21.575", it would be fun and games, nay, a nightmare, to fit one in in a realistic / usable 2 wheeler chassis. Tank position, and exhaust and induction being the difficulties. But hell, I would have succeeded in doing so.Whistling

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queen of spodes 7/17/2021 9:23am
7/17/2021 9:23am
jkoch249 wrote:
To your point, they should allow "works" bikes again. It might bring back some innovation and would definitely spark interest at the National events. The privateer...
To your point, they should allow "works" bikes again. It might bring back some innovation and would definitely spark interest at the National events. The privateer teams wouldn't like it though.
If you wanna see moto continue to shrink and become more of a spectator only sport, sure... bring back those 500k bikes that only a few riders get via factories. But also, you'd potentially see an even wider gap between the top riders and the rest of the field.

No to works bikes. If anything ditch the 2 stroke displacement rule. We need more privateers on the circuit more than we need to look at 3-4 "works" bikes which in all honesty - each of us already rides today.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 7/17/2021 9:56am
7/17/2021 9:56am
Bearuno wrote:
Dowd and others being on the 520s etc, was down to rules that then existed in the AMA that allowed up to 540cc 4ts to compete...
Dowd and others being on the 520s etc, was down to rules that then existed in the AMA that allowed up to 540cc 4ts to compete against 250cc 2ts. It was Not an "Open" Class.

I'm not 100% sure but it think there may have been something like a 175cc limit for a 4t against 125 2ts, but I don't recall anyone ever trying that at National levels.

With 85cc racing, there was a limit of 125cc for 4ts, but Honda, it's reported, knew they couldn't make a reliable / affordable, for most Mini Dads, 125cc 4t, that could go up against the 85s, so they made the 150s, and, through their power and influence, got into the 85cc class, at least for a while, in many countries sanctioning bodies.

Hey, I'd love to see genuine 'boomers' ( as in, BIG 4ts) out there, and modern large capacity 2ts instead of just the sea of 'screamers' that 4ts - even 450s - have become. But, it's not going to happen - the highest level of the sport controllers are just too spineless / in the thrall of some manufacturers.

That riders "detune" their 450? Hell, moving power around on large capacity bikes has always been a fact of life within the class. That's the beauty of the bigger engines - what can be done with the power characteristics. Riders prefer different power deliveries and levels, and a big engine, with No problem making more than enough power, enables various tunes.

For a giggle, here's an example of what could be a 'Boomer", the JBS Racing M1 (1000cc 4t Woohoo ) :

I first saw it in 2011 - made for Sidecarcross, but it seems to have disappeared. Teams can get plenty of power from the various 2ts, like Zabels and MEGAs, and the KTM 690 engine. I'd love to make a chassis to take such a thing, for some rich bastard ( I was trying to persuade a very moneyed up mate to get one, but, as I said the engine project seemed to cease to exist.) , and set me loose in my workshop , but at a height of 548mm = 21.575", it would be fun and games, nay, a nightmare, to fit one in in a realistic / usable 2 wheeler chassis. Tank position, and exhaust and induction being the difficulties. But hell, I would have succeeded in doing so.Whistling

Crazy stuff like this is really not the subject of this thread, although highly entertaining. The point is let them run whatever they bring, we don’t know what might end up being the best until it is tried. Development since the production bike rules other than four strokes is mostly nonexistent.
700cc 2t Megaladon build
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DzhOKzqU02s
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JustMX
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JustMX 7/17/2021 10:21am
7/17/2021 10:21am
jkoch249 wrote:
To your point, they should allow "works" bikes again. It might bring back some innovation and would definitely spark interest at the National events. The privateer...
To your point, they should allow "works" bikes again. It might bring back some innovation and would definitely spark interest at the National events. The privateer teams wouldn't like it though.
queen of spodes wrote:
If you wanna see moto continue to shrink and become more of a spectator only sport, sure... bring back those 500k bikes that only a few...
If you wanna see moto continue to shrink and become more of a spectator only sport, sure... bring back those 500k bikes that only a few riders get via factories. But also, you'd potentially see an even wider gap between the top riders and the rest of the field.

No to works bikes. If anything ditch the 2 stroke displacement rule. We need more privateers on the circuit more than we need to look at 3-4 "works" bikes which in all honesty - each of us already rides today.
I agree.

It was bad enough that the factories teams have such a ridiculous advantage with suspension components running into tens of thousands of dollars.

Then the 4 stroke revolution happened and maintaining a 250f.engine for multiple rounds just got stupid expensive, with only factory teams being able to afford the expense.

I miss the days of locals at a place like southwick shaking things up, and guys like guy cooper doing an impressive privateer career.

If there is going to be a "production" rule, simplify and enforce it.
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Bearuno
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Bearuno 7/17/2021 10:40am
7/17/2021 10:40am
Bearuno wrote:
Dowd and others being on the 520s etc, was down to rules that then existed in the AMA that allowed up to 540cc 4ts to compete...
Dowd and others being on the 520s etc, was down to rules that then existed in the AMA that allowed up to 540cc 4ts to compete against 250cc 2ts. It was Not an "Open" Class.

I'm not 100% sure but it think there may have been something like a 175cc limit for a 4t against 125 2ts, but I don't recall anyone ever trying that at National levels.

With 85cc racing, there was a limit of 125cc for 4ts, but Honda, it's reported, knew they couldn't make a reliable / affordable, for most Mini Dads, 125cc 4t, that could go up against the 85s, so they made the 150s, and, through their power and influence, got into the 85cc class, at least for a while, in many countries sanctioning bodies.

Hey, I'd love to see genuine 'boomers' ( as in, BIG 4ts) out there, and modern large capacity 2ts instead of just the sea of 'screamers' that 4ts - even 450s - have become. But, it's not going to happen - the highest level of the sport controllers are just too spineless / in the thrall of some manufacturers.

That riders "detune" their 450? Hell, moving power around on large capacity bikes has always been a fact of life within the class. That's the beauty of the bigger engines - what can be done with the power characteristics. Riders prefer different power deliveries and levels, and a big engine, with No problem making more than enough power, enables various tunes.

For a giggle, here's an example of what could be a 'Boomer", the JBS Racing M1 (1000cc 4t Woohoo ) :

I first saw it in 2011 - made for Sidecarcross, but it seems to have disappeared. Teams can get plenty of power from the various 2ts, like Zabels and MEGAs, and the KTM 690 engine. I'd love to make a chassis to take such a thing, for some rich bastard ( I was trying to persuade a very moneyed up mate to get one, but, as I said the engine project seemed to cease to exist.) , and set me loose in my workshop , but at a height of 548mm = 21.575", it would be fun and games, nay, a nightmare, to fit one in in a realistic / usable 2 wheeler chassis. Tank position, and exhaust and induction being the difficulties. But hell, I would have succeeded in doing so.Whistling

Johnny Depp wrote:
Crazy stuff like this is really not the subject of this thread, although highly entertaining. The point is let them run whatever they bring, we don’t...
Crazy stuff like this is really not the subject of this thread, although highly entertaining. The point is let them run whatever they bring, we don’t know what might end up being the best until it is tried. Development since the production bike rules other than four strokes is mostly nonexistent.
700cc 2t Megaladon build
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DzhOKzqU02s
The 'stuff' before the "For a Giggle", was about this thread.

As for that build the bouncing, backwards hat ( like a wannabe 80s white boy rapper - good grief, when will he stop that schtick - when he isn't acting like that, he comes across really well) wearing Pom has videos of: I don't think I've seen a more dreadful engine mounting - well I have, from MPS and an few other butchers - in years. I know those Berg frames very, very well - they are made to be absolutely minimalist, for a counter balanced engine. They were well thought out, from the factory, But, even then I had to repair a few. Everything can, and does, break. That thing, with a vibratory, miss mounted / crappily mounted, Huge 2t engine, well, if used hard, will be down right dangerous.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 7/17/2021 12:08pm
7/17/2021 12:08pm
4 250’s in Moto 1 with best laps equal to or better than 6-10 in 450’s. As if bike size really matters….
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dontdrinkandpost 7/5/2024 3:04pm
7/5/2024 3:04pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
4 250’s in Moto 1 with best laps equal to or better than 6-10 in 450’s. As if bike size really matters….

You are right, we have seen that forever, even 125’s with faster lap times than 250’s back in the day. I think there should be an elite class that is open to all capacity bikes and electric. And a second tier class for the up and comers limited to 250 4-stroke or less.

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