Going Big vs. Unneccesary Temptation (Deano's Line)

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8/28/2017 10:05 AM

After the Indiana wall jump fiasco with Deano, seeing some people agree and some people disagree with DC's choice got me thinking. Where do we draw the line as a sport between danger/risk and entertainment/racing? When is a section of the track too risky for the benefit achieved?

When I was growing up I always thought it was the coolest thing ever when someone figured out a huge line no one else had done. I feel as though it was common opinion to be in awe when JS7 would launch a quad or what have you, he was even basically begged upon at times to hang it out.

It seems like we're losing something about the sport that has to do with the "go big or go home" mentality. Do we want these riders to go balls out like Deano (finding faster, riskier lines to help their case in winning) or race safely and not have too much risk involved? I for one am on the side of letting these guys race. If a new line develops, leave it alone UNTIL problems arise. It's part of racing, the track changes and riders figure things out. If riders are complaining or crashing then take the jump out.

All it feels like now is Deano got punished for doing something good.

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8/28/2017 10:08 AM

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8/28/2017 10:13 AM

Bro you just lost a grammar contest with me. Come on now, try harder next time.

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8/28/2017 10:19 AM

"If a new line develops, leave it alone UNTIL problems arise. It's part of racing, the track changes and riders figure things out. If riders are complaining or crashing then take the jump out."

Couple examples in SX this year where this was not the popular opinion. Plus deano was doing the line on a perfect track for press day. They didnt bulldoze it between motos.

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8/28/2017 11:02 AM

early wrote:

"If a new line develops, leave it alone UNTIL problems arise. It's part of racing, the track changes and riders figure things out. If riders are complaining or crashing then take the jump out."

Couple examples in SX this year where this was not the popular opinion. Plus deano was doing the line on a perfect track for press day. They didnt bulldoze it between motos.

I use the villopoto example in my thought process. That triple out of that rhythm was gnarly, everyone thought so but every one was doing it. It was dangerous but it was the fastest line, sometimes the fastest line is dangerous. That's what makes this sport so intense, so prestigious in my eyes. Instead of praising Deano for finding a fast line we reprimanded him for the sake of 39 others. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought this was a sport for badasses.

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8/28/2017 11:05 AM

early wrote:

"If a new line develops, leave it alone UNTIL problems arise. It's part of racing, the track changes and riders figure things out. If riders are complaining or crashing then take the jump out."

Couple examples in SX this year where this was not the popular opinion. Plus deano was doing the line on a perfect track for press day. They didnt bulldoze it between motos.

I don't believe people need to be hurt before they make changes. I believe it was the second round of SX this year we heard riders talk about that one jump at the end of the rhythm being dangerous and yet we watched 3 or 4 dudes bust their ass on it before they changed it. Not right IMO.

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8/28/2017 11:07 AM

There is already a thread about this.

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

8/28/2017 11:09 AM

early wrote:

"If a new line develops, leave it alone UNTIL problems arise. It's part of racing, the track changes and riders figure things out. If riders are complaining or crashing then take the jump out."

Couple examples in SX this year where this was not the popular opinion. Plus deano was doing the line on a perfect track for press day. They didnt bulldoze it between motos.

MX Guy wrote:

I use the villopoto example in my thought process. That triple out of that rhythm was gnarly, everyone thought so but every one was doing it. It was dangerous but it was the fastest line, sometimes the fastest line is dangerous. That's what makes this sport so intense, so prestigious in my eyes. Instead of praising Deano for finding a fast line we reprimanded him for the sake of 39 others. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought this was a sport for badasses.

Im thinking of the jump combo that Jmart did the flip and stuck the landing on. Riders complained about it but nothing was done until it was a problem which meant a couple guys got taken out of the race by it. The ironman situation is a little different but the line I quoted by you reflects my example.

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8/28/2017 11:19 AM

early wrote:

Im thinking of the jump combo that Jmart did the flip and stuck the landing on. Riders complained about it but nothing was done until it was a problem which meant a couple guys got taken out of the race by it. The ironman situation is a little different but the line I quoted by you reflects my example.

I understand where you're coming from and where DC is coming from as well. Yard sales aren't good for anyone involved, obviously.

Let's just take out every jump, every breaking bump, every whoop, we'll do a staggered start at 5 mph and we'll just have 5 minute motos so they don't get tired and risk crashing.

I mean really, if there's a whoop section in SX and the fastest line is to wheelie through every lap, is DC gonna call them and plead to them to take the whoops out so no one hurts their ass?

Moto needs not to be bubble wrapped.

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8/28/2017 11:39 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2017 11:40 AM

MX Guy wrote:

I use the villopoto example in my thought process. That triple out of that rhythm was gnarly, everyone thought so but every one was doing it. It was dangerous but it was the fastest line, sometimes the fastest line is dangerous. That's what makes this sport so intense, so prestigious in my eyes. Instead of praising Deano for finding a fast line we reprimanded him for the sake of 39 others. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought this was a sport for badasses.

early wrote:

Im thinking of the jump combo that Jmart did the flip and stuck the landing on. Riders complained about it but nothing was done until it was a problem which meant a couple guys got taken out of the race by it. The ironman situation is a little different but the line I quoted by you reflects my example.

MX Guy wrote:

I understand where you're coming from and where DC is coming from as well. Yard sales aren't good for anyone involved, obviously.

Let's just take out every jump, every breaking bump, every whoop, we'll do a staggered start at 5 mph and we'll just have 5 minute motos so they don't get tired and risk crashing.

I mean really, if there's a whoop section in SX and the fastest line is to wheelie through every lap, is DC gonna call them and plead to them to take the whoops out so no one hurts their ass?

Moto needs not to be bubble wrapped.

Do you follow road racing? There are some great circuits motogp doesnt visit anymore because of the inherent danger of the track. They dont just say "well these guys can go as fast as they feel comfortable going". Moto tracks are easy to change so if the promoter feels it needs changed they have the right. Also DC has nothing to do with SX tracks and i dont think anybody will say that he is watering down MX tracks too much. (Woodchipping/sanding tracks maybe cool )

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8/28/2017 1:22 PM

I feel like the whole point is missed with these threads. It isn't about taking away an advantage or removing challenging obstacles. It's about the consequences that would result from a mistake and the fact that a mistake on an obstacle like that is almost completely inevitable. When it's likely that catastrophic injury will occur, it needs to go. This sport is dangerous enough. If we have an opportunity to protect riders from life altering injuries, we need to take it. I'm all for challenging these guys and I love watching creative lines like this one. We can do that while still protecting our own.

For this particular jump, I feel a better solution would be to remove the third roller which would lessen the consequences of an endo, or build the first lip up just a tad more which would at least let them get over clean if they do everything right. That way if they miss a tad because of a mistake or track conditions, they land like Deano did and then they can decide if it's time to stop doing it. A majority of the riders wouldn't be doing it so it'd still have the cool factor.

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8/28/2017 1:39 PM

tcallahan707 wrote:

I feel like the whole point is missed with these threads. It isn't about taking away an advantage or removing challenging obstacles. It's about the consequences that would result from a mistake and the fact that a mistake on an obstacle like that is almost completely inevitable. When it's likely that catastrophic injury will occur, it needs to go. This sport is dangerous enough. If we have an opportunity to protect riders from life altering injuries, we need to take it. I'm all for challenging these guys and I love watching creative lines like this one. We can do that while still protecting our own.

For this particular jump, I feel a better solution would be to remove the third roller which would lessen the consequences of an endo, or build the first lip up just a tad more which would at least let them get over clean if they do everything right. That way if they miss a tad because of a mistake or track conditions, they land like Deano did and then they can decide if it's time to stop doing it. A majority of the riders wouldn't be doing it so it'd still have the cool factor.

OK fair point, but then wouldn't the big, blind landing triple fall foul of the same saftey concerns? It's the inconsistency that I feel most have issue with.

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8/28/2017 1:48 PM

"When a new line develops, leave it alone UNTIL problems arise"

When a problem arises it's probably too late. I agree with your sentiment, but its 2018, the organisers main priority is rider safety as they could be held accountable in some cases, or just cause a shit ton a problems if 6 or so riders got injured because of a certain section. Saying that I don't believe in dumbing the tracks down, so riders can't be creative. If you look at the gp tracks they are a lot more technical, with slower speeds, which I believe is the way forward. Still allows riders to be creative and shine through but it doesn't always mean hitting a 200 ft triple to do so.

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8/28/2017 1:55 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2017 2:16 PM

tcallahan707 wrote:

I feel like the whole point is missed with these threads. It isn't about taking away an advantage or removing challenging obstacles. It's about the consequences that would result from a mistake and the fact that a mistake on an obstacle like that is almost completely inevitable. When it's likely that catastrophic injury will occur, it needs to go. This sport is dangerous enough. If we have an opportunity to protect riders from life altering injuries, we need to take it. I'm all for challenging these guys and I love watching creative lines like this one. We can do that while still protecting our own.

For this particular jump, I feel a better solution would be to remove the third roller which would lessen the consequences of an endo, or build the first lip up just a tad more which would at least let them get over clean if they do everything right. That way if they miss a tad because of a mistake or track conditions, they land like Deano did and then they can decide if it's time to stop doing it. A majority of the riders wouldn't be doing it so it'd still have the cool factor.

JC21 wrote:

OK fair point, but then wouldn't the big, blind landing triple fall foul of the same saftey concerns? It's the inconsistency that I feel most have issue with.

I don't feel like that is in the same category. You could OJ or case it and have a solid chance of walking away or not even crashing. Obviously the potential is always there for something catastrophic but it isn't in the "high likelihood" category.

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8/28/2017 2:48 PM

Complete B.S. Wilson would've went 1-1 had they kept that jump!!

Seriously though, had they kept it in there and someone got paralyzed on it then you all would be bitching about track safety. The decision to remove that jump could have easily saved someone's life and had zero effect on the quality of racing we all got to see. You guys want to see good racing or guys getting hurt?

You guys seem to forget these are mostly young kids out there with their whole lives ahead of them and good thing there are guys like DC that can recognize unnecessary risks such as the jump being talked about and eliminate them.

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8/28/2017 5:36 PM

It wasn't the first time that something like this has been done. Just the first time someone posted about it. As well as being realistic about it. Have many races have you watched where one person does an obstacle that no one else can do? Btw Marv still did it during the motos...

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#narconate

8/28/2017 6:22 PM

I didn't think Deano's line was that bad, although I definitely think people could have augured themselves on it. I doubt it'd been doable all moto anyways, probably would have been chewed out.

I normally am on the side of WTF are they thinking tho, so totally ok with taking it out.

But taking that out, there are a lot of obstacles that are a bit silly. I mean, Glen Helen almost every year has something where you're waiting for a chain break to witness a rider's last moment.

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Cheers, Crush
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8/28/2017 6:29 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2017 6:30 PM

Crush wrote:

I didn't think Deano's line was that bad, although I definitely think people could have augured themselves on it. I doubt it'd been doable all moto anyways, probably would have been chewed out.

I normally am on the side of WTF are they thinking tho, so totally ok with taking it out.

But taking that out, there are a lot of obstacles that are a bit silly. I mean, Glen Helen almost every year has something where you're waiting for a chain break to witness a rider's last moment.

And they took out the stupid uphill triple at GH this year before the race

Keeping our guys safe is a big priority and I appreciate the effort

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8/28/2017 6:49 PM

If a jump is dangerous by it's nature (nasty kicker on the lip, incorrect trajectory for the landing etc.) then it needs to be changed. If someone spots a different way to tackle an obstacle and decides it's worth the risk like Wilson did, then that's their choice and the obstacle can be left alone IMO.

Decision making (risk vs. reward) has always been a part of the sport and will always be. Carmichael said he always tried to gain time for the least amount of risk (going faster through a slow rutted corner for example) to try and save time rather than trying to quad something crazy that saved the same amount of time but would result in a race/season ending injury if he got it wrong. That's good race management.

In golf they say Drive for Show, Putt for Dough. The drive is the equivalent of hucking a massive quad, the putt is the equivalent of railing that awkward rut perfectly lap after lap. Leave it up to the riders to decide where to gain time, as long as it's safe for others on the track.

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8/28/2017 7:23 PM

FARANG wrote:

If a jump is dangerous by it's nature (nasty kicker on the lip, incorrect trajectory for the landing etc.) then it needs to be changed. If someone spots a different way to tackle an obstacle and decides it's worth the risk like Wilson did, then that's their choice and the obstacle can be left alone IMO.

Decision making (risk vs. reward) has always been a part of the sport and will always be. Carmichael said he always tried to gain time for the least amount of risk (going faster through a slow rutted corner for example) to try and save time rather than trying to quad something crazy that saved the same amount of time but would result in a race/season ending injury if he got it wrong. That's good race management.

In golf they say Drive for Show, Putt for Dough. The drive is the equivalent of hucking a massive quad, the putt is the equivalent of railing that awkward rut perfectly lap after lap. Leave it up to the riders to decide where to gain time, as long as it's safe for others on the track.

I've been more on the side of backing DC for this particular decision but man do you raise some valid points.

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8/28/2017 9:31 PM

Crush wrote:

I didn't think Deano's line was that bad, although I definitely think people could have augured themselves on it. I doubt it'd been doable all moto anyways, probably would have been chewed out.

I normally am on the side of WTF are they thinking tho, so totally ok with taking it out.

But taking that out, there are a lot of obstacles that are a bit silly. I mean, Glen Helen almost every year has something where you're waiting for a chain break to witness a rider's last moment.

dirtdog36 wrote:

And they took out the stupid uphill triple at GH this year before the race

Keeping our guys safe is a big priority and I appreciate the effort

This year? Yeah... but almost every year at Glen Helen since 05 there has been a jump that is fucking crazy. It's like a damn video game that track!

I agree tho, safety first.

I wish they'd start at slowing down the bikes... the racing was better then too.

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Cheers, Crush
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8/28/2017 9:55 PM

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