Davies vs. Shimoda

gt80rider wrote:

Jo is two yrs older than Jett and will be a 250 lifer... Davies will win and be in the 450 class for 2028... there is...

Jo is two yrs older than Jett and will be a 250 lifer... Davies will win and be in the 450 class for 2028... there is a reason jo hasn't already won an sx or outdoor title,  he's good, but not elite... 

Spudinki45 wrote:

What's interesting is that Jo, Levi, and Seth are all older than Haiden and Jett:Per Racer X:Seth Hammaker 25 years, 9 months, 7 days (Sep 29...

What's interesting is that Jo, Levi, and Seth are all older than Haiden and Jett:

Per Racer X:
Seth Hammaker 25 years, 9 months, 7 days (Sep 29, 2000)
Levi Kitchen 25 years, 4 months, 20 days (Feb 16, 2001)
Jo Shimoda 24 years, 1 month, 20 days (May 16, 2002)

Hunter Lawrence 26 years, 11 months, 5 days (Aug 1, 1999)
Jett Lawrence 22 years, 10 months, 29 days (Aug 7, 2003)
Haiden Deegan 20 years, 5 months, 26 days (Jan 10, 2006)

However, I don't necessarily think it's fair to hyper-criticize Seth, Levi, or Jo for their age.

Yes, Haiden and Jett moved up earlier, but they are also generational talents.

It's hard to blame or expect Seth, Levi, or Jo to have been able to beat either Jett or Haiden when they were in 250s.

Rather, I think what it shows is that you shouldn't need to win a 250 title to prove your worth for a factory 450 ride, in particular when racing against generational talents.

Take, AP, Malcolm, RJ, and Justin Cooper. All of them got and "deserved" factory rides because they won a 250 title, but look at their competition for those titles: AP beat Alex Martin in 2018 MX, RJ beat Levi in 24 (after Levi got taken out by McAdoo in Nashville), Malcolm beat AP in 2016 SX (who was only in his 2nd year), Cooper beat Hunter (only in his 2nd year of SX).

I don't think any of them would have won had they had to race against Jett or Deegan.

So, I think it's a unfair comparison to hold Jo, Seth, or Levi to the same standard. 

The perfect case in point is RJ and Garrett who are currently 4th and 5th in 450s and both of them are arguably less talented / fast than all 3 of Jo, Seth, and Levi.

And, look at Jo in MXON 2025 (he was quite competitive and finished 2-6, beating RJ Hampshire, and Maxime Renaux, and finishing only 2-8 seconds behind Febvre and Gajser in moto 3 after having no break compared to the MXGP class).

All this to say, think those 3 are fast and ready to compete in 450s. I honestly, don't want to see any of them keep delaying their 450 debut if they lose to Davies. It's time for them to move up before they get too old.

 

 

The Wolf Man wrote:

Say all you want, they are old for the 250 class and are wildly inconsistant. If they were in MX2 they would have aged out. 

Spudinki45 wrote:

What's interesting is that Jo, Levi, and Seth are all older than Haiden and Jett:Per Racer X:Seth Hammaker 25 years, 9 months, 7 days (Sep 29...

What's interesting is that Jo, Levi, and Seth are all older than Haiden and Jett:

Per Racer X:
Seth Hammaker 25 years, 9 months, 7 days (Sep 29, 2000)
Levi Kitchen 25 years, 4 months, 20 days (Feb 16, 2001)
Jo Shimoda 24 years, 1 month, 20 days (May 16, 2002)

Hunter Lawrence 26 years, 11 months, 5 days (Aug 1, 1999)
Jett Lawrence 22 years, 10 months, 29 days (Aug 7, 2003)
Haiden Deegan 20 years, 5 months, 26 days (Jan 10, 2006)

However, I don't necessarily think it's fair to hyper-criticize Seth, Levi, or Jo for their age.

Yes, Haiden and Jett moved up earlier, but they are also generational talents.

It's hard to blame or expect Seth, Levi, or Jo to have been able to beat either Jett or Haiden when they were in 250s.

Rather, I think what it shows is that you shouldn't need to win a 250 title to prove your worth for a factory 450 ride, in particular when racing against generational talents.

Take, AP, Malcolm, RJ, and Justin Cooper. All of them got and "deserved" factory rides because they won a 250 title, but look at their competition for those titles: AP beat Alex Martin in 2018 MX, RJ beat Levi in 24 (after Levi got taken out by McAdoo in Nashville), Malcolm beat AP in 2016 SX (who was only in his 2nd year), Cooper beat Hunter (only in his 2nd year of SX).

I don't think any of them would have won had they had to race against Jett or Deegan.

So, I think it's a unfair comparison to hold Jo, Seth, or Levi to the same standard. 

The perfect case in point is RJ and Garrett who are currently 4th and 5th in 450s and both of them are arguably less talented / fast than all 3 of Jo, Seth, and Levi.

And, look at Jo in MXON 2025 (he was quite competitive and finished 2-6, beating RJ Hampshire, and Maxime Renaux, and finishing only 2-8 seconds behind Febvre and Gajser in moto 3 after having no break compared to the MXGP class).

All this to say, think those 3 are fast and ready to compete in 450s. I honestly, don't want to see any of them keep delaying their 450 debut if they lose to Davies. It's time for them to move up before they get too old.

 

 

The Wolf Man wrote:

Say all you want, they are old for the 250 class and are wildly inconsistant. If they were in MX2 they would have aged out. 

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

Shimoda would have won in MX2. He’s just been unfortunate to be racing against some great champions like Deegan, Jett and Hunter racing here.

The Wolf Man wrote:

Say all you want, they are old for the 250 class and are wildly inconsistant. If they were in MX2 they would have aged out. 

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

Shimoda would have won in MX2. He’s just been unfortunate to be racing against some great champions like Deegan, Jett and Hunter racing here.

Mavetism wrote:

No, he has horrible starts and always only started winning once he was way out of the points before this season. He wouldn't have won championships...

No, he has horrible starts and always only started winning once he was way out of the points before this season. He wouldn't have won championships in Mx2 against riders like Vialle/Lucas/De Wolf/Längenfelder over there  In fact he wouldn't be able to come through the pack like he does in the US with his starts, because the Mx2 field is usually deeper at the front.
Davies is a rookie and has already more wins than Shimoda this season. It's actually mind blowing that he has the red plate somehow now with only one moto win. Based on skill and specially experience he should dominate this class imo. And this comes from a Shimoda fan btw.

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

Shimoda would have won in MX2. He’s just been unfortunate to be racing against some great champions like Deegan, Jett and Hunter racing here.

Mavetism wrote:

No, he has horrible starts and always only started winning once he was way out of the points before this season. He wouldn't have won championships...

No, he has horrible starts and always only started winning once he was way out of the points before this season. He wouldn't have won championships in Mx2 against riders like Vialle/Lucas/De Wolf/Längenfelder over there  In fact he wouldn't be able to come through the pack like he does in the US with his starts, because the Mx2 field is usually deeper at the front.
Davies is a rookie and has already more wins than Shimoda this season. It's actually mind blowing that he has the red plate somehow now with only one moto win. Based on skill and specially experience he should dominate this class imo. And this comes from a Shimoda fan btw.

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

idk I feel confident he would have won here if he wasn’t racing behind the champs so I’d like to think the 250 class here is...

idk I feel confident he would have won here if he wasn’t racing behind the champs so I’d like to think the 250 class here is better than MX2, either way I’m taking Shimoda in a 20 round MX2 series based on his fitness level and he seems to be better at MX than SX historically.

Mavetism wrote:

No, he has horrible starts and always only started winning once he was way out of the points before this season. He wouldn't have won championships...

No, he has horrible starts and always only started winning once he was way out of the points before this season. He wouldn't have won championships in Mx2 against riders like Vialle/Lucas/De Wolf/Längenfelder over there  In fact he wouldn't be able to come through the pack like he does in the US with his starts, because the Mx2 field is usually deeper at the front.
Davies is a rookie and has already more wins than Shimoda this season. It's actually mind blowing that he has the red plate somehow now with only one moto win. Based on skill and specially experience he should dominate this class imo. And this comes from a Shimoda fan btw.

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

idk I feel confident he would have won here if he wasn’t racing behind the champs so I’d like to think the 250 class here is...

idk I feel confident he would have won here if he wasn’t racing behind the champs so I’d like to think the 250 class here is better than MX2, either way I’m taking Shimoda in a 20 round MX2 series based on his fitness level and he seems to be better at MX than SX historically.

Mavetism wrote:

"so I’d like to think the 250 class here is better than MX2"

You still think so?

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

idk I feel confident he would have won here if he wasn’t racing behind the champs so I’d like to think the 250 class here is...

idk I feel confident he would have won here if he wasn’t racing behind the champs so I’d like to think the 250 class here is better than MX2, either way I’m taking Shimoda in a 20 round MX2 series based on his fitness level and he seems to be better at MX than SX historically.

Mavetism wrote:

"so I’d like to think the 250 class here is better than MX2"

You still think so?

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

Yes. Doesn’t mean 1 guy in MX2 or MXGP can’t be better than everyone here, but that doesn’t make the entire class/field better. One guy doesn’t...

Yes. Doesn’t mean 1 guy in MX2 or MXGP can’t be better than everyone here, but that doesn’t make the entire class/field better. One guy doesn’t make or break an entire series. I am no expert either it’s just my opinion but I haven’t observed enough of MX2/MXGP to say for sure. What is the Coenen bros avg margin of victory in MX2 and MXGP? That would be where I would start if I really gave a crap, but I only see highlights of MX2 and MXGP on YouTube. Besides Coenen, Herlings and Gaiser idk who in MXGP would have success here in 450. Idk who besides Coenen and De Wolf would have any success here in 250 coming from MX2. But the key here is that I don’t know, because they all really only race each other at same time at MXoN and that’s a small sample size.

Mavetism wrote:

"so I’d like to think the 250 class here is better than MX2"

You still think so?

JAKEDOWN492 wrote:

Yes. Doesn’t mean 1 guy in MX2 or MXGP can’t be better than everyone here, but that doesn’t make the entire class/field better. One guy doesn’t...

Yes. Doesn’t mean 1 guy in MX2 or MXGP can’t be better than everyone here, but that doesn’t make the entire class/field better. One guy doesn’t make or break an entire series. I am no expert either it’s just my opinion but I haven’t observed enough of MX2/MXGP to say for sure. What is the Coenen bros avg margin of victory in MX2 and MXGP? That would be where I would start if I really gave a crap, but I only see highlights of MX2 and MXGP on YouTube. Besides Coenen, Herlings and Gaiser idk who in MXGP would have success here in 450. Idk who besides Coenen and De Wolf would have any success here in 250 coming from MX2. But the key here is that I don’t know, because they all really only race each other at same time at MXoN and that’s a small sample size.

Mavetism wrote:

"I haven’t observed enough of MX2/MXGP" and yet you're so sure that Jo would win championships there? Believe if or not, but Sacha doesn't win every race...

"I haven’t observed enough of MX2/MXGP" and yet you're so sure that Jo would win championships there? 

Believe if or not, but Sacha doesn't win every race there, even if he stays on the bike. There is 3-4 more guys who can run that pace depending on the weekend, specially Farres now. And Lucas/De Wolf specially in 2024 were even faster than the current class is right now.

Motodude wrote:

What happend to Jo today???

Motodude wrote:

What happend to Jo today???