Why you are fading at the 15-minute mark (and the problem with your off-bike training)

jamesclark 5/9/2026 2:52pm
5/9/2026 2:52pm
3strokemx wrote:

AI Prompt Fitness company name: "Vector Forge"

AI Prompt amateur motocross athlete fitness plan:   *post to Vitalmx





 

Hi nice to meet you, my name is James. Been racing off road and moto since I was about 10 years old. I am now 26. After winning a National Hare and Hound Open A championship, racing 3 marathons, Ironmaning a 10 hour race at Glen Helen (won the Ironman class and placed 10th overall), and training over the past 4 years (only missing 1 day of working out) I decided to build a business to help other riders/racers train with better direction. 

Insert Vector Forge, where effort without direction is wasted. Yes, AI is a tool that I have trained and use as a resource to help. There is a human behind the posts as well. Feel free to check out my Instagram @James.Clark824. The Performance Audit, which is initially mentioned in the post, is a free tool that I built to help athletes find gaps in their training (if they have any). 

I appreciate you engaging with the post!

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 2:56pm
5/9/2026 2:56pm
MemberSpaceNameColon wrote:

Increase

VO2

Max

Exactly. Zone 2 is the base which helps your body learn to use energy more efficiently. Just like building a house, you need to start with a strong foundation or else the building will collapse. The VO2 Max work (sprint work) helps your body consume oxygen during high intense exercise. 

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 2:58pm
5/9/2026 2:58pm
Radical wrote:
You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting...

You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting with Zone 5.  Then give yourself plenty of time to recover.

Lactate threshold improves.  High intensity endurance improves.

OwenJakes wrote:

Most ignorant post in this forum. 

MemberSpaceNameColon wrote:

True.  Z2 should be 80% of your training.

Most professional athletes have an 80/20 split. 80% at an easy effort to build their base/foundation. Then the 20% is an intense effort to build the top end speed. 

Great callout

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:01pm
5/9/2026 3:01pm
bigdogpaint401 wrote:
Zone 2 is how you build your cardio system and is an amazing tool to build your base and not hate your training I used to come...

Zone 2 is how you build your cardio system and is an amazing tool to build your base and not hate your training 

I used to come home from work and first thing hop on my stationary bike for an hour five days a week at 135 bpm and within a few months I saw a huuuuge gain, you can do your sprints at the track 

whateversclever69 wrote:

Polarized training is the way! Yes and progressive overload 

Progressive overload is a great tool! I build in deload weeks every 4th week of my training plans. This allows the body to adapt and absorb the training so I can continue to push at a higher level. Think of it as a micro taper. 

The other thing to add is that for our sport, moto, it is often you are racing very frequently. The way you train must take that into account and give your body the proper time to recover so you can perform on race day. That is when you give 110% effort. 

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aees
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aees 5/9/2026 3:08pm
5/9/2026 3:08pm
OwenJakes wrote:

Most ignorant post in this forum. 

MemberSpaceNameColon wrote:

True.  Z2 should be 80% of your training.

jamesclark wrote:
Most professional athletes have an 80/20 split. 80% at an easy effort to build their base/foundation. Then the 20% is an intense effort to build the...

Most professional athletes have an 80/20 split. 80% at an easy effort to build their base/foundation. Then the 20% is an intense effort to build the top end speed. 

Great callout

It's 80% for elite, doing 15-20h per week. 

For us, if you do one session 1.5-2h (preferably 2) Z2 per week it's good enough. If you can fit in 2 session per week, great. 

Love my 1.45-2h Z2 MTB rides in the evenings. Good podcast and time flies.

33/33/33 is probably more realistic for us meaning one heavier lower rep gym session (end 2-3 rep before failure, avoid high heart rate), 1-2 moto days and 1-2 Z2. 

3-5 sessions per week where of 1-2 easy/recover in the Z2. 

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:08pm
5/9/2026 3:08pm
Radical wrote:
You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting...

You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting with Zone 5.  Then give yourself plenty of time to recover.

Lactate threshold improves.  High intensity endurance improves.

jamesclark wrote:
You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence...

You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.

Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence brothers, Deegan, or the top hard enduro guys. They spend hours every week grinding on road or mountain bikes at a conversational pace. They aren't doing that to waste time.

Here is the mechanical reason why: Zone 4 training produces lactate. Zone 2 training builds the mitochondria that clears lactate.

If you only train in Zone 4, you build a high-revving engine with a terrible exhaust system. Your body gets great at producing power, but lacks the infrastructure to flush the lactic acid out of your forearms and back. That is exactly when you get arm pump and your grip fails.

Pros do long Zone 2 rides to build the base necessary to process the intense anaerobic spikes on the track, and to ensure they can actually recover in time for Moto 2.

You need both. But if you skip the base, your progress will hit a hard ceiling.

Radical wrote:
I don't have time to do hours of cardio each week, and don't believe it's necessary, or the best way to train.Zone 2 is not pushing...

I don't have time to do hours of cardio each week, and don't believe it's necessary, or the best way to train.

Zone 2 is not pushing your body at all, unless that's where your fitness is at.  If it is, great!  Do zone 2, then keep pushing until you can do zone 3, then zone 4, for 45-60 minutes, twice per week.  Zone 3 has merit if the duration is high enough, but I'm not convinced that Zone 2 does anything long term except that it's better than not working out at all.

I can't, nor do I believe it's healthy, to do Zone 4/5 for longer than 45-60 minutes, or more often than 2-3x / week (really 2), but in my experience, zone 4/5 for 45-55 minutes is where the magic is.  Give yourself enough recovery time, and endurance and performance continue to increase consistently over time.

I can see doing a zone 2 or 3 ride on off days, just to keep your body moving, and keep your lungs/heart/arteries expanded from the zone 4/5 workouts, but for performance/endurance I'm not convinced that zone 2 is worth the time at all.

Add weight training (push yourself, then leave time for recovery), plus riding 1x / week, plus decent nutrition/supplementation, and endurance is not a problem.  For me, neither is arm pump.

I can see great value in having a trainer dial in an athlete's program, in cardio and strength/flexibility, but we disagree on the value of zone 2, especially for those of us with busy schedules.

I wish you the best!

I appreciate your input man!

The reality is that most people that race have full time jobs and work insane hours to make things work. I feel you on that one. I also have a full time job on top of training and coaching a few athletes. 

The other caveat is that for someone just starting out, if you ask them to go for a run or bike ride or any cardio activity for that matter, their heart rate may instantly go into a zone 4-5. Which could lead to injury, burn out, and/or severe fatigue. 

Training at a zone 2 level (easy effort) teaches you control and your body learns how to use energy efficiently. 

Some people may have a different style that suits them. I have found and the athletes I work with, use zone 2 which has shown it works for us. 

The whole premise is that effort without direction is wasted. If you just do random workouts (whether zone 5 or zone 2 combined with weights), it will yield random results. 

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:15pm
5/9/2026 3:15pm
30minmotos wrote:
Dude I swear anytime I string 5-6 good days of eating clean suddenly there’s a pizza on my counter that I didn’t order, or an event...

Dude I swear anytime I string 5-6 good days of eating clean suddenly there’s a pizza on my counter that I didn’t order, or an event with food I can’t avoid, or work orders junk food for everyone and it’s free and right there, 


I know it’s just discipline but dang when it’s free, in front of you, it’s tough lmao

jamesclark wrote:
It isn't a discipline problem. You are fighting biology, and biology always wins.When you try to "eat clean" for 5 days straight, you are almost certainly...

It isn't a discipline problem. You are fighting biology, and biology always wins.

When you try to "eat clean" for 5 days straight, you are almost certainly under-eating. By the time Friday hits, your system is heavily depleted. When that happens, your brain overrides your willpower and locks onto the most calorie-dense thing in the room, the free pizza.

The fix isn't more willpower. It is a better fueling system.

If you actually eat enough high-quality food during the week to match your training and work output, you won't be starving when the junk food shows up. It becomes easy to walk past. Stop restricting your fuel Monday through Thursday, and the pizza stops being a threat. Keep the ice cream, just fix the weekday deficit.

El_Rayo wrote:

Are you posting anything original? It’s obvious these are just copy and paste’s from AI

I do have original posts. The AI that is used is a tool that I have trained on the methods I use and experience I have. I could be better at sounding more unique and thank you for the feedback!

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:18pm
5/9/2026 3:18pm
uncledaddy69 wrote:
It’s funny seeing the heart rate zone argument here because it’s one of the most debated things in the running world. I’d also like to know...

It’s funny seeing the heart rate zone argument here because it’s one of the most debated things in the running world. I’d also like to know who is on the static stretch side vs the dynamic stretch side of things. 

Sports can learn a lot from each other because many training techniques can translate. Its one of the items I learned by training and running 3 marathons while still racing here and there. 

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:21pm
5/9/2026 3:21pm
Radical wrote:
You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting...

You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting with Zone 5.  Then give yourself plenty of time to recover.

Lactate threshold improves.  High intensity endurance improves.

jamesclark wrote:
You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence...

You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.

Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence brothers, Deegan, or the top hard enduro guys. They spend hours every week grinding on road or mountain bikes at a conversational pace. They aren't doing that to waste time.

Here is the mechanical reason why: Zone 4 training produces lactate. Zone 2 training builds the mitochondria that clears lactate.

If you only train in Zone 4, you build a high-revving engine with a terrible exhaust system. Your body gets great at producing power, but lacks the infrastructure to flush the lactic acid out of your forearms and back. That is exactly when you get arm pump and your grip fails.

Pros do long Zone 2 rides to build the base necessary to process the intense anaerobic spikes on the track, and to ensure they can actually recover in time for Moto 2.

You need both. But if you skip the base, your progress will hit a hard ceiling.

whateversclever69 wrote:
I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing...

I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing intervals everytime I’m on the dirtbike.  Also lift for an hour 4 times a week.  Exercise about 6 days a week most are 2 a days, lift in the morning and cycling at night 

At a quick glance, this structure isn't bad from my perspective. If it continues to work, you should notice your cycling pace start to get faster while your heart rate remains in the same zone and the sprint work at the tracks starts to get faster. Provided you are recovering well, eating properly, and structuring your plan around the races you have

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:24pm
5/9/2026 3:24pm
Radical wrote:
You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting...

You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting with Zone 5.  Then give yourself plenty of time to recover.

Lactate threshold improves.  High intensity endurance improves.

OwenJakes wrote:

Most ignorant post in this forum. 

I have found zone 2 to be great. Some find that a different type of training works better for them. That is one of the wonders of the body. Everyone reacts differently to trainings. There is research to back the zone 2 work though, even if it is at an elite level. Beginners and amateurs can still learn from what elite people do

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:28pm
5/9/2026 3:28pm
Leemur891 wrote:

What is the solution for fading at the 15 second mark? Asking for a friend…

Great question... not sure if I have good news, you may be sol.... hahaha I am just kidding

Just start working on your fitness. Cardio work and strength work will go a long way. Then incorporate some technical days on the bike, you'll start to see progress relatively soon

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:33pm
5/9/2026 3:33pm
MemberSpaceNameColon wrote:

True.  Z2 should be 80% of your training.

jamesclark wrote:
Most professional athletes have an 80/20 split. 80% at an easy effort to build their base/foundation. Then the 20% is an intense effort to build the...

Most professional athletes have an 80/20 split. 80% at an easy effort to build their base/foundation. Then the 20% is an intense effort to build the top end speed. 

Great callout

aees wrote:
It's 80% for elite, doing 15-20h per week. For us, if you do one session 1.5-2h (preferably 2) Z2 per week it's good enough. If you can...

It's 80% for elite, doing 15-20h per week. 

For us, if you do one session 1.5-2h (preferably 2) Z2 per week it's good enough. If you can fit in 2 session per week, great. 

Love my 1.45-2h Z2 MTB rides in the evenings. Good podcast and time flies.

33/33/33 is probably more realistic for us meaning one heavier lower rep gym session (end 2-3 rep before failure, avoid high heart rate), 1-2 moto days and 1-2 Z2. 

3-5 sessions per week where of 1-2 easy/recover in the Z2. 

Good point. I believe that the more time you spend in zone 2 the better. It helps your body actively recover from that work you do

My training plan is Monday: easy run, push strength, Tuesday: Tempo run, Maintenance workout (mobility), Wednesday: easy run with strides, Pull strength, Thursday: Medium long run, Swim, Friday: VO2 max run, leg day, Saturday: Walk, Maintenance workout, Sunday: Long run (will shift to motos soon)

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aees
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aees 5/9/2026 3:34pm
5/9/2026 3:34pm
Radical wrote:
You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting...

You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting with Zone 5.  Then give yourself plenty of time to recover.

Lactate threshold improves.  High intensity endurance improves.

jamesclark wrote:
You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence...

You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.

Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence brothers, Deegan, or the top hard enduro guys. They spend hours every week grinding on road or mountain bikes at a conversational pace. They aren't doing that to waste time.

Here is the mechanical reason why: Zone 4 training produces lactate. Zone 2 training builds the mitochondria that clears lactate.

If you only train in Zone 4, you build a high-revving engine with a terrible exhaust system. Your body gets great at producing power, but lacks the infrastructure to flush the lactic acid out of your forearms and back. That is exactly when you get arm pump and your grip fails.

Pros do long Zone 2 rides to build the base necessary to process the intense anaerobic spikes on the track, and to ensure they can actually recover in time for Moto 2.

You need both. But if you skip the base, your progress will hit a hard ceiling.

whateversclever69 wrote:
I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing...

I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing intervals everytime I’m on the dirtbike.  Also lift for an hour 4 times a week.  Exercise about 6 days a week most are 2 a days, lift in the morning and cycling at night 

If possible, get an e-bike if you want to have the z2 effect and still climp. Going into z3 on climbs ruins the whole z2 session. 

Also why Z2 shall be minimum 1h, preferably 2. Slow twitch is slow to develop. Recruiting fast twitch, "disconnects" slow twitch and you have to start over. 

It's not exactly the science, but simplified 

1
aees
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aees 5/9/2026 3:35pm
5/9/2026 3:35pm
jamesclark wrote:
Most professional athletes have an 80/20 split. 80% at an easy effort to build their base/foundation. Then the 20% is an intense effort to build the...

Most professional athletes have an 80/20 split. 80% at an easy effort to build their base/foundation. Then the 20% is an intense effort to build the top end speed. 

Great callout

aees wrote:
It's 80% for elite, doing 15-20h per week. For us, if you do one session 1.5-2h (preferably 2) Z2 per week it's good enough. If you can...

It's 80% for elite, doing 15-20h per week. 

For us, if you do one session 1.5-2h (preferably 2) Z2 per week it's good enough. If you can fit in 2 session per week, great. 

Love my 1.45-2h Z2 MTB rides in the evenings. Good podcast and time flies.

33/33/33 is probably more realistic for us meaning one heavier lower rep gym session (end 2-3 rep before failure, avoid high heart rate), 1-2 moto days and 1-2 Z2. 

3-5 sessions per week where of 1-2 easy/recover in the Z2. 

jamesclark wrote:
Good point. I believe that the more time you spend in zone 2 the better. It helps your body actively recover from that work you doMy...

Good point. I believe that the more time you spend in zone 2 the better. It helps your body actively recover from that work you do

My training plan is Monday: easy run, push strength, Tuesday: Tempo run, Maintenance workout (mobility), Wednesday: easy run with strides, Pull strength, Thursday: Medium long run, Swim, Friday: VO2 max run, leg day, Saturday: Walk, Maintenance workout, Sunday: Long run (will shift to motos soon)

I can only stay in Z2 on bike, skierg or rower. Running puts me in 3 pretty fast unfortunately.

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:40pm
5/9/2026 3:40pm
aees wrote:
It's 80% for elite, doing 15-20h per week. For us, if you do one session 1.5-2h (preferably 2) Z2 per week it's good enough. If you can...

It's 80% for elite, doing 15-20h per week. 

For us, if you do one session 1.5-2h (preferably 2) Z2 per week it's good enough. If you can fit in 2 session per week, great. 

Love my 1.45-2h Z2 MTB rides in the evenings. Good podcast and time flies.

33/33/33 is probably more realistic for us meaning one heavier lower rep gym session (end 2-3 rep before failure, avoid high heart rate), 1-2 moto days and 1-2 Z2. 

3-5 sessions per week where of 1-2 easy/recover in the Z2. 

jamesclark wrote:
Good point. I believe that the more time you spend in zone 2 the better. It helps your body actively recover from that work you doMy...

Good point. I believe that the more time you spend in zone 2 the better. It helps your body actively recover from that work you do

My training plan is Monday: easy run, push strength, Tuesday: Tempo run, Maintenance workout (mobility), Wednesday: easy run with strides, Pull strength, Thursday: Medium long run, Swim, Friday: VO2 max run, leg day, Saturday: Walk, Maintenance workout, Sunday: Long run (will shift to motos soon)

aees wrote:

I can only stay in Z2 on bike, skierg or rower. Running puts me in 3 pretty fast unfortunately.

You can get there! It takes time, keep working. It has taken me a while to get where I am at fitness wise. Trust the process. Also, feel free to run through the audit in the original post, you may have other gaps in your training holding you back. It is completely free and once I evaluate your answers, I will give you a 30 day plan to attack the gaps to hopefully move the needle on your training. I would be happy to help

1
jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:42pm
5/9/2026 3:42pm
jamesclark wrote:
You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence...

You’re right that Zone 4 pushes your lactate threshold higher, but relying on it exclusively is a trap.

Look at any factory pro's program, Tomac, the Lawrence brothers, Deegan, or the top hard enduro guys. They spend hours every week grinding on road or mountain bikes at a conversational pace. They aren't doing that to waste time.

Here is the mechanical reason why: Zone 4 training produces lactate. Zone 2 training builds the mitochondria that clears lactate.

If you only train in Zone 4, you build a high-revving engine with a terrible exhaust system. Your body gets great at producing power, but lacks the infrastructure to flush the lactic acid out of your forearms and back. That is exactly when you get arm pump and your grip fails.

Pros do long Zone 2 rides to build the base necessary to process the intense anaerobic spikes on the track, and to ensure they can actually recover in time for Moto 2.

You need both. But if you skip the base, your progress will hit a hard ceiling.

whateversclever69 wrote:
I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing...

I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing intervals everytime I’m on the dirtbike.  Also lift for an hour 4 times a week.  Exercise about 6 days a week most are 2 a days, lift in the morning and cycling at night 

aees wrote:
If possible, get an e-bike if you want to have the z2 effect and still climp. Going into z3 on climbs ruins the whole z2 session. Also...

If possible, get an e-bike if you want to have the z2 effect and still climp. Going into z3 on climbs ruins the whole z2 session. 

Also why Z2 shall be minimum 1h, preferably 2. Slow twitch is slow to develop. Recruiting fast twitch, "disconnects" slow twitch and you have to start over. 

It's not exactly the science, but simplified 

I think of it more as an average. My zone 2 is 119 - 132 but I sometimes creep up to 135 during those runs, which is due to a hill or the temperature. Then I slow down and control it back into the zone. 

1
jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:49pm
5/9/2026 3:49pm
3strokemx wrote:

AI Prompt Fitness company name: "Vector Forge"

AI Prompt amateur motocross athlete fitness plan:   *post to Vitalmx





 

Marty1028 wrote:
Surprised no one else is calling this out. This dude is an AI bot or is pasting a ChatGPT reply here. Very identifiable in his sentence...

Surprised no one else is calling this out. This dude is an AI bot or is pasting a ChatGPT reply here. Very identifiable in his sentence structure 

I already wrote this in response to 3strokemx and I thought I'd paste the same response here. I'd be happy to help any questions you have and/or engage in productive conversation:

Hi nice to meet you, my name is James. Been racing off road and moto since I was about 10 years old. I am now 26. After winning a National Hare and Hound Open A championship, racing 3 marathons, Ironmaning a 10 hour race at Glen Helen (won the Ironman class and placed 10th overall), and training over the past 4 years (only missing 1 day of working out) I decided to build a business to help other riders/racers train with better direction. 

Insert Vector Forge, where effort without direction is wasted. Yes, AI is a tool that I have trained and use as a resource to help. There is a human behind the posts as well. Feel free to check out my Instagram @James.Clark824. The Performance Audit, which is initially mentioned in the post, is a free tool that I built to help athletes find gaps in their training (if they have any). 

I appreciate you engaging with the post!

1
jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:52pm
5/9/2026 3:52pm
bigdogpaint401 wrote:
Zone 2 is how you build your cardio system and is an amazing tool to build your base and not hate your training I used to come...

Zone 2 is how you build your cardio system and is an amazing tool to build your base and not hate your training 

I used to come home from work and first thing hop on my stationary bike for an hour five days a week at 135 bpm and within a few months I saw a huuuuge gain, you can do your sprints at the track 

The key to lasting in any sport is not hating your training. That is a great point and again, another point to why zone 2 can be a benefit

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 3:57pm
5/9/2026 3:57pm
kylemenz1 wrote:
I personally enjoy really long motos.  Problem in most local races are 5 laps. At my age and ability training and racing sprint races aren’t the...

I personally enjoy really long motos.  Problem in most local races are 5 laps. At my age and ability training and racing sprint races aren’t the best idea. Local racing in Southern California they’re 2 clubs that have long motos. SRA GP’s and VET MX have longer motos where endurance wins out over sprint speed. 

Most of my background is in the grand prix/desert space. I love the longer races and also love a good moto sprint. If you haven't tried out NGPC, they have some good races! Also, Dirt Diggers MC throws a race out at Taft every year that you should check out

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aees
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aees 5/9/2026 4:19pm
5/9/2026 4:19pm
whateversclever69 wrote:
I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing...

I moto 1-2 times a week and am zone 4-5 both times.  All my cycling is zone 2 (zone 3 on climbs) because I’m already doing intervals everytime I’m on the dirtbike.  Also lift for an hour 4 times a week.  Exercise about 6 days a week most are 2 a days, lift in the morning and cycling at night 

aees wrote:
If possible, get an e-bike if you want to have the z2 effect and still climp. Going into z3 on climbs ruins the whole z2 session. Also...

If possible, get an e-bike if you want to have the z2 effect and still climp. Going into z3 on climbs ruins the whole z2 session. 

Also why Z2 shall be minimum 1h, preferably 2. Slow twitch is slow to develop. Recruiting fast twitch, "disconnects" slow twitch and you have to start over. 

It's not exactly the science, but simplified 

jamesclark wrote:
I think of it more as an average. My zone 2 is 119 - 132 but I sometimes creep up to 135 during those runs, which...

I think of it more as an average. My zone 2 is 119 - 132 but I sometimes creep up to 135 during those runs, which is due to a hill or the temperature. Then I slow down and control it back into the zone. 

Unfortunately doesn't work that way. Average is useless for z2. You should stay about 5 BPM below your Z3 starts to be on the safe side. 

This of course assumes you have done proper Max HR testing. 

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aees
Profile picture for user aees
Posts
2724
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
US
aees 5/9/2026 4:21pm
5/9/2026 4:21pm
jamesclark wrote:
Good point. I believe that the more time you spend in zone 2 the better. It helps your body actively recover from that work you doMy...

Good point. I believe that the more time you spend in zone 2 the better. It helps your body actively recover from that work you do

My training plan is Monday: easy run, push strength, Tuesday: Tempo run, Maintenance workout (mobility), Wednesday: easy run with strides, Pull strength, Thursday: Medium long run, Swim, Friday: VO2 max run, leg day, Saturday: Walk, Maintenance workout, Sunday: Long run (will shift to motos soon)

aees wrote:

I can only stay in Z2 on bike, skierg or rower. Running puts me in 3 pretty fast unfortunately.

jamesclark wrote:
You can get there! It takes time, keep working. It has taken me a while to get where I am at fitness wise. Trust the process...

You can get there! It takes time, keep working. It has taken me a while to get where I am at fitness wise. Trust the process. Also, feel free to run through the audit in the original post, you may have other gaps in your training holding you back. It is completely free and once I evaluate your answers, I will give you a 30 day plan to attack the gaps to hopefully move the needle on your training. I would be happy to help

I had resting HR of below 50, and closer to 60 vo2max. Still couldn't stay in Z2 running without going so slow it becomes a walk. Guess just how I'm wired. Also tall and 190-200lbs, doesn't help probably.

I'm predominantly fast twitch. Very difficult to build slow twitch for me.

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MXWebmaster
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6/19/2017
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South Central, TX US
MXWebmaster 5/9/2026 5:03pm
5/9/2026 5:03pm

Lmao. That's all. 

1
Lillefty27
Profile picture for user Lillefty27
Posts
280
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5/11/2022
Location
SW, MI US
Lillefty27 5/9/2026 5:16pm
5/9/2026 5:16pm
Radical wrote:
You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting...

You lost me at Zone 2.  Zone 2 is a waste of time.  Work your way up to training for 45-60 minutes at Zone 4, flirting with Zone 5.  Then give yourself plenty of time to recover.

Lactate threshold improves.  High intensity endurance improves.

30minmotos wrote:
Honestly makes sense for most of the moto community.Let’s say they ride 1 day per wk and you flirt with zone 4 and 5 on a...

Honestly makes sense for most of the moto community.


Let’s say they ride 1 day per wk and you flirt with zone 4 and 5 on a ride day.


Do 2-4 stretching and lifting days

1 zone 4-5 cardio day 2-3 days after your ride day and 2-3 days before the next ride day.


The stretching and lifting is what most of us need. I can’t even get in a good standing attack position comfortably anymore my hips and ankles are all so compromised from office job, commuting, injuries, lzyness, etc.

jamesclark wrote:
Spot on. You just highlighted the silent killer for amateur racers: biomechanical restriction.If your hips and ankles are locked up from sitting at a desk, you...

Spot on. You just highlighted the silent killer for amateur racers: biomechanical restriction.

If your hips and ankles are locked up from sitting at a desk, you physically cannot hinge into a proper attack position. When you can't hinge, you absorb the bike's impact through your lower back and arms instead of your legs. That is exactly how severe arm pump and lower back spasms start, regardless of your cardio.

Your proposed 7-day split is close, but I would make one structural tweak to the engine work.

Since your ride day is already heavily taxing your Zone 4/5 (high intensity), doing another Zone 4/5 day off the bike is going to fry your central nervous system. Instead, swap that off-bike cardio day to a strict 45-60 minute Zone 2 session.

Use your off-bike days to build the aerobic base, fix the desk-job mobility issues, and build structural strength. Let the track be your high-intensity work.

Getting all these moving parts to work together without overtraining is the hardest part for guys working full-time. That is exactly why I built the audit linked in the original post. It is a quick series of diagnostic questions designed to pinpoint exactly where your current routine has gaps, whether it is mobility, base building, or recovery. Run through it if you want to see exactly where you are leaking performance.

Get this AI bullish*t out of here. If you’re here to solicit your online training website, at least do it yourself instead of using the dam robot.

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1
jamesclark 5/9/2026 5:47pm
5/9/2026 5:47pm
30minmotos wrote:
Honestly makes sense for most of the moto community.Let’s say they ride 1 day per wk and you flirt with zone 4 and 5 on a...

Honestly makes sense for most of the moto community.


Let’s say they ride 1 day per wk and you flirt with zone 4 and 5 on a ride day.


Do 2-4 stretching and lifting days

1 zone 4-5 cardio day 2-3 days after your ride day and 2-3 days before the next ride day.


The stretching and lifting is what most of us need. I can’t even get in a good standing attack position comfortably anymore my hips and ankles are all so compromised from office job, commuting, injuries, lzyness, etc.

jamesclark wrote:
Spot on. You just highlighted the silent killer for amateur racers: biomechanical restriction.If your hips and ankles are locked up from sitting at a desk, you...

Spot on. You just highlighted the silent killer for amateur racers: biomechanical restriction.

If your hips and ankles are locked up from sitting at a desk, you physically cannot hinge into a proper attack position. When you can't hinge, you absorb the bike's impact through your lower back and arms instead of your legs. That is exactly how severe arm pump and lower back spasms start, regardless of your cardio.

Your proposed 7-day split is close, but I would make one structural tweak to the engine work.

Since your ride day is already heavily taxing your Zone 4/5 (high intensity), doing another Zone 4/5 day off the bike is going to fry your central nervous system. Instead, swap that off-bike cardio day to a strict 45-60 minute Zone 2 session.

Use your off-bike days to build the aerobic base, fix the desk-job mobility issues, and build structural strength. Let the track be your high-intensity work.

Getting all these moving parts to work together without overtraining is the hardest part for guys working full-time. That is exactly why I built the audit linked in the original post. It is a quick series of diagnostic questions designed to pinpoint exactly where your current routine has gaps, whether it is mobility, base building, or recovery. Run through it if you want to see exactly where you are leaking performance.

Lillefty27 wrote:
Get this AI bullish*t out of here. If you’re here to solicit your online training website, at least do it yourself instead of using the dam...

Get this AI bullish*t out of here. If you’re here to solicit your online training website, at least do it yourself instead of using the dam robot.

Fair call, in the manner that I use AI to help consolidate my thoughts so I don't ramble. I help athletes find direction and look at data of athletes to build systems that they can succeed in. I am in fact real and the methods are sound. You don't have to click the link that I provided. It is only a free tool for athletes to find gaps in their training. I'm here to help and talk through data, experiences, and programming. 

Hope you're enjoying the supercross race!

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jamesclark 5/9/2026 5:49pm
5/9/2026 5:49pm
MXWebmaster wrote:

Lmao. That's all. 

Laughter helps you live longer! Appreciate you engaging and finding some humor in all of this hahaha

1
5
OwenJakes
Profile picture for user OwenJakes
Posts
1705
Joined
6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
OwenJakes 5/10/2026 10:54am
5/10/2026 10:54am
El_Rayo wrote:

“Zone 2 is a waste of time” has to be the dumbest thing I have read on vital this week. And that says a lot.

OwenJakes wrote:
Zone 2 is like house money. I have 2-3 targeted sessions a week and then just heaps of easy running and it’s changed my life. I used...

Zone 2 is like house money. I have 2-3 targeted sessions a week and then just heaps of easy running and it’s changed my life. 

I used to just go out and YOLO mile every workout and I’ve made more progress in 3 months than I have all last year. Literally just by calming down and being less ignorant lol

Spike33 wrote:

How’s the shed going 

Dude not great honestly idk if I want to turn it into a shop or a storage facility. I need space but I also want a sweet containment zone for all things 2 wheels. I’ll keep you posted😂

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2
OwenJakes
Profile picture for user OwenJakes
Posts
1705
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6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
OwenJakes 5/10/2026 10:57am
5/10/2026 10:57am
aees wrote:

I can only stay in Z2 on bike, skierg or rower. Running puts me in 3 pretty fast unfortunately.

jamesclark wrote:
You can get there! It takes time, keep working. It has taken me a while to get where I am at fitness wise. Trust the process...

You can get there! It takes time, keep working. It has taken me a while to get where I am at fitness wise. Trust the process. Also, feel free to run through the audit in the original post, you may have other gaps in your training holding you back. It is completely free and once I evaluate your answers, I will give you a 30 day plan to attack the gaps to hopefully move the needle on your training. I would be happy to help

aees wrote:
I had resting HR of below 50, and closer to 60 vo2max. Still couldn't stay in Z2 running without going so slow it becomes a walk...

I had resting HR of below 50, and closer to 60 vo2max. Still couldn't stay in Z2 running without going so slow it becomes a walk. Guess just how I'm wired. Also tall and 190-200lbs, doesn't help probably.

I'm predominantly fast twitch. Very difficult to build slow twitch for me.

Nope you just had terrible running economy and low adaptation. Keep working at it and you’ll be golden. I’m 217 as of this morning (and still gaining) and can run 9:00 miles around 130-135 bpm. 

VO2 max is good but it’s mostly a flex. Most athletes don’t know what to do with it. Think: getting smoked at Nurburgring by some cat in a Miata that just is a better driver. 

1
2
ZinAZ
Profile picture for user ZinAZ
Posts
307
Joined
10/11/2022
Location
boston, MA US
ZinAZ 5/10/2026 1:02pm
5/10/2026 1:02pm
jamesclark wrote:
If you are consistently losing lap time or making critical mistakes late in a moto, the issue usually isn't your bike setup. It is a structural...

If you are consistently losing lap time or making critical mistakes late in a moto, the issue usually isn't your bike setup. It is a structural flaw in your conditioning.

Most amateur and semi-pro racers approach off-the-bike training with random inputs. You do a few heavy lifts, throw in some high-intensity interval training, or spend an hour on a stationary bike. Random inputs yield random outputs.

Motocross is a highly specific endurance sport. It requires sustained cardiovascular output at threshold, combined with sharp anaerobic spikes. When you train without a system, you usually encounter three critical failures:

  1. Poor Aerobic Base: If your Zone 2 engine is underdeveloped, your heart rate spikes too early in the moto and cannot recover in the corners.
  2. Lactic Accumulation: When you rely exclusively on high-intensity circuit training off the bike, your body loses the ability to efficiently clear lactate, resulting in severe arm pump and grip failure.
  3. Neurological Fatigue: Random training creates central nervous system fatigue that carries over to race day, reducing your reaction time and decision-making capabilities.

To fix this, you must stop treating your conditioning like a generic gym workout and start treating it like a performance system. You need a structured progression framework that builds base endurance without sacrificing explosive power.

If you are currently training but not seeing your late-moto endurance improve, your programming has a leak.

I run Vector Forge, where we build structured performance systems for serious endurance athletes. I built a free Performance Audit to help identify exactly where your current training is breaking down. It takes about five minutes to complete.

You can run your current program through the audit here: VectorForgeHQ.com/performanceaudit

If you have specific questions about heart rate zones or off-bike programming, drop them below and I will answer them.

thanks chat gpt

Radical
Profile picture for user Radical
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2835
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10/20/2012
Location
San Diego, CA US
Radical 5/11/2026 8:09pm
5/11/2026 8:09pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2026 8:12pm

I'm doubling down.

I'm an extremely fast runner for my age (64).

Zone 2 training is a fad.  10 years from now it'll be known as what it is: A light workout.

Zone 4 for 45 minutes, flirting with Zone 5, is where the magic is.

If anyone doubts, meet me at the 2027 Glen Helen 2 stroke world championship, and Vet Nationals, plus the Amateur Race at Fox Raceway before the national.

Fitness will not be an issue for me, whatsoever.

My training methods work.

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TheMilkman 5/11/2026 8:25pm
5/11/2026 8:25pm

I fully expected this thread to be about the RAW METHOD. I heard it’s back. 

1

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