Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes

indy_maico
Profile picture for user indy_maico
Posts
5102
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Indianapolis, IN, USA
indy_maico 1/13/2011 11:34am
1/13/2011 11:34am
flarider wrote:
Why not just revisit the allowable two stroke displacement to make it more even, like maybe 200cc 2-stroke vs 250F and 400cc 2-stroke against 450F, then...
Why not just revisit the allowable two stroke displacement to make it more even, like maybe 200cc 2-stroke vs 250F and 400cc 2-stroke against 450F, then give the OEM's a free pass for a year of racing R&D (at their choosing) like they were allowed when four strokes were first being introduced.
Not everyone came out with four strokes at the same time and not everyone will intro their new two strokes at the same time (if at all), but at least the opportunity is there to R&D and possibly eventually give the consumer a choice.
I'm sure the factories don't want to jump on board making new 2-strokes no matter how quickly they could spool up the production lines to build them.

Fact is that the maintenance and parts required to do a season on a 4-stroke makes them a gold mine for the manufacturers. The gift that keeps on giving.

And another thing, (not directed at you, Dave)

WTF does the 'T' in 2T stand for anyway?

burn1986
Profile picture for user burn1986
Posts
12246
Joined
4/16/2010
Location
bossier city, LA, USA
burn1986 1/13/2011 11:34am
1/13/2011 11:34am
You know the sad part about this is DC and Crowther have the chance to do something worthwhile and helpful for the sport and the fans. Instead they buckle under pressure from the factories. The petition is at 3500, but this represents only a fraction of the people who want to see a change in the AMA Pro rulebook to allow an increase in the 2-stroke displacements. The fact is that increasing the limit to 150cc in the 250F class and 300cc in the 450 class wouldn't make that big of difference (and in fact may not be the best change, but it is the smallest with the least impact). Even a 125 class is doable, but even this is met only with hostility, and some kind of lame rhetoric about trying something that no one has heard of. It's not a 2 vs 4 debate or battle, but rather a change issue wanted by a large majority of riders across America.
FreshTopEnd
Profile picture for user FreshTopEnd
Posts
13293
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
FreshTopEnd 1/13/2011 11:34am
1/13/2011 11:34am
"Can you find it in yourself to at least admit that having the pros line up with a mix of 2Ts and 4Ts would make for some exciting racing?"

Mooch, not if the result is the OEM money supporting the sport takes its ball and goes home, which is what they've intimated. I guess we could play that game of chicken and see.

I also think that the teams will do whatever gives them the advantage, so I don't think they necessarily will be happy racing hopped up 250f's against privateers with a power advantage, and I don't think it will just be against privateers.

There's something more fundamental going on here that two vs four stroke issues, and that's whether you should have different rules for less talented riders to enable them to compete with elite riders. Elite riders have always had more resources supporting them; it's like the point people have mentioned about suspension: that it may have less to do with the parts than the personnel tuning the parts.

Does that hold back some "less talented" riders from becoming elite riders? People are going to disagree on this, but I think it's rare. More often than not the cream rises to the top. Riders who are incredibly talented, but who will never rise to that level regardless of resources, cycle in and out of the pro ranks every year.

But that's a different issue from two vs four stoke bikes and what displacements of each are appropriate to race together. I think you'll get better solutions not consolidating those two issues and dealing with them separately instead. Reasonable people can disagree.
indy_maico
Profile picture for user indy_maico
Posts
5102
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Indianapolis, IN, USA
indy_maico 1/13/2011 11:43am
1/13/2011 11:43am
DC wrote:
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change...
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change? The fear at Yamaha is that Jason Lawrence would show up on a black YZ250 and beat their YZ250Fs, which he probably would based on TWMX's tests last spring when J-Law was a second and a half faster on a 1:40 track, and no way he was at his peak speed or either bike was a factory....

Marvin Musquin on a 250F or Marvin Musquin in a KTM 250 SX outdoors, both bikes from the KTM factory... that's the meaningful test that would be more relevant to this issue.

DC
MX SPorts

sesker15 wrote:
I think Marvin Lap tims would be around the same times! Probley even faster on the 4stroke IMO!
I doubt that a pro on a 4-stroke would be faster than a pro on a 2-stroke after getting re-acquainted with how to ride one.

These guys who have been riding 250F's for a while would have to make riding style adjustments to get the most out of a 2-stroke 250. But once they do, it won't be close.

Even if by some miracle lap times were close, who gets the holeshot, the guy on 4-stroke or the guy on the 2-stroke? Then the 4-stroke guy has to make a pass on guy who is riding a lighter bike that makes 20 hp more, then try to stay ahead of him.

Everyone talks about how 250F's do similar lap times to the 450's. Lap times don't tell the whole story. I doubt a pro on a 250F could stay in front of a pro on a 450 very long,

Same for a 250F vs a 250 2-stroke.

The Shop

See All »
mooch
Profile picture for user mooch
Posts
1801
Joined
2/16/2008
Location
USA
Fantasy
91st
mooch 1/13/2011 11:52am
1/13/2011 11:52am Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 11:53am
hellion wrote:
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy...
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.

On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.

Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.

I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.

I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.

I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.
No doubt, I agree with that also!

From that point it's pretty obvious that there are going to be a good number of folks who can't put out the bucks for a 4stroke. With new 2 strokes being in short supply and the new YZs being rehashed 2006 models it's also obvious why there are people giving money to someone on craigslist rather writing a check to an OEM.

Which helps the OEMS bottom line more...forcing some people to either leave the sport or buy a used 2 stroke, or should they simple play nice and offer up both bikes to the public and allow pro riders to make their own decision also?
DC
Profile picture for user DC
Posts
3889
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV, USA
DC 1/13/2011 11:57am
1/13/2011 11:57am Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 11:59am
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther. You want changes based on assumptions that it will make racing better for some, but what about the others? What if it doesn't work? What if everyone who doesn't make a two-stroke gets whipped? Do you think they will turn around and invest more in two-stroke racing, or just shut the doors and fire all of their riders and mechanics and focus on something else? Because that really might happen, and I don't really think our sport can take that risk right now. It's easy to demand change, based on opinion and preference, but what happens on the ground, in the pits, at a professional race?



It's easy to take risks with other people's careers and demand products to be changed to fit your cost range and preference when you're on a message board or bench racing at the parts counter, or pay way too much for an engine fix, but go to the next industry meeting and tell them you're changing the rules on them after all these years and all this investment, and in these financial times, and see how it goes.



There are real passions on either side of this, but one side is actually making the products and utilizing them in their racing programs, and we still need their participation in our sport. I wish it were different, but until it is, I guess I can't be helpful and useful here.



DC

MX Sports

CamP
Profile picture for user CamP
Posts
6826
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX, USA
CamP 1/13/2011 12:01pm
1/13/2011 12:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 12:03pm
hellion wrote:
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy...
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.

On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.

Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.

I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.

I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.

I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.
Would it make any difference to your sales if you had new 250T's on the showroom that retailed for $5,995?
flarider
Profile picture for user flarider
Posts
25496
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Daytona Beach, FL, USA
flarider 1/13/2011 12:02pm
1/13/2011 12:02pm
flarider wrote:
Why not just revisit the allowable two stroke displacement to make it more even, like maybe 200cc 2-stroke vs 250F and 400cc 2-stroke against 450F, then...
Why not just revisit the allowable two stroke displacement to make it more even, like maybe 200cc 2-stroke vs 250F and 400cc 2-stroke against 450F, then give the OEM's a free pass for a year of racing R&D (at their choosing) like they were allowed when four strokes were first being introduced.
Not everyone came out with four strokes at the same time and not everyone will intro their new two strokes at the same time (if at all), but at least the opportunity is there to R&D and possibly eventually give the consumer a choice.
indy_maico wrote:
I'm sure the factories don't want to jump on board making new 2-strokes no matter how quickly they could spool up the production lines to build...
I'm sure the factories don't want to jump on board making new 2-strokes no matter how quickly they could spool up the production lines to build them.

Fact is that the maintenance and parts required to do a season on a 4-stroke makes them a gold mine for the manufacturers. The gift that keeps on giving.

And another thing, (not directed at you, Dave)

WTF does the 'T' in 2T stand for anyway?

Fine, their choice
Then why not at the same time allow aftermarket kits?
Why not allow a sleeved or stroked 125 up to 200cc allowable in 250F?

Why not allow a sleeved/stroked 250cc two stroke, up to whatever, in 450F

'If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain'
Motocross83 1/13/2011 12:04pm
1/13/2011 12:04pm
DC wrote:
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change...
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change? The fear at Yamaha is that Jason Lawrence would show up on a black YZ250 and beat their YZ250Fs, which he probably would based on TWMX's tests last spring when J-Law was a second and a half faster on a 1:40 track, and no way he was at his peak speed or either bike was a factory....

Marvin Musquin on a 250F or Marvin Musquin in a KTM 250 SX outdoors, both bikes from the KTM factory... that's the meaningful test that would be more relevant to this issue.

DC
MX SPorts

sesker15 wrote:
I think Marvin Lap tims would be around the same times! Probley even faster on the 4stroke IMO!
indy_maico wrote:
I doubt that a pro on a 4-stroke would be faster than a pro on a 2-stroke after getting re-acquainted with how to ride one. These...
I doubt that a pro on a 4-stroke would be faster than a pro on a 2-stroke after getting re-acquainted with how to ride one.

These guys who have been riding 250F's for a while would have to make riding style adjustments to get the most out of a 2-stroke 250. But once they do, it won't be close.

Even if by some miracle lap times were close, who gets the holeshot, the guy on 4-stroke or the guy on the 2-stroke? Then the 4-stroke guy has to make a pass on guy who is riding a lighter bike that makes 20 hp more, then try to stay ahead of him.

Everyone talks about how 250F's do similar lap times to the 450's. Lap times don't tell the whole story. I doubt a pro on a 250F could stay in front of a pro on a 450 very long,

Same for a 250F vs a 250 2-stroke.

It's not just about hp! Forget about the 20 hp. They are different engines.

A 4 stroke makes less but it puts far more of what it does make to the track. I think 4 stroke Marvin would go faster, certainly hold his own against 2 stroke Marvin regardless of preparation.

As for the holeshot thing that depends on the start. There have been plenty of occasions where a 250f has beaten a 450 out the gate and across an entire race, Villipoto's 2007 MXDN springs to mind. How many 450's did Roczen stay ahead of in the MXDN this year? Cairoli in 06? The list goes on.

burn1986
Profile picture for user burn1986
Posts
12246
Joined
4/16/2010
Location
bossier city, LA, USA
burn1986 1/13/2011 12:05pm
1/13/2011 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 12:08pm
DC, What do you want me to say that hasn't been said already? You are the one in charge of this. I realize there are 2 sides, and pressures galore, but there seems to be a closed door here like never before. I don't think the stats and proposals have been total assumptions. Do you think the current rules are fair for the 2-stroke?
CamP
Profile picture for user CamP
Posts
6826
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX, USA
CamP 1/13/2011 12:09pm
1/13/2011 12:09pm
We are in the great recession. If they don't simplify the bikes and reduce the cost of them now, the sport will suffer for the next decade.
FreshTopEnd
Profile picture for user FreshTopEnd
Posts
13293
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
FreshTopEnd 1/13/2011 12:12pm
1/13/2011 12:12pm
burn1986 wrote:
You know the sad part about this is DC and Crowther have the chance to do something worthwhile and helpful for the sport and the fans...
You know the sad part about this is DC and Crowther have the chance to do something worthwhile and helpful for the sport and the fans. Instead they buckle under pressure from the factories. The petition is at 3500, but this represents only a fraction of the people who want to see a change in the AMA Pro rulebook to allow an increase in the 2-stroke displacements. The fact is that increasing the limit to 150cc in the 250F class and 300cc in the 450 class wouldn't make that big of difference (and in fact may not be the best change, but it is the smallest with the least impact). Even a 125 class is doable, but even this is met only with hostility, and some kind of lame rhetoric about trying something that no one has heard of. It's not a 2 vs 4 debate or battle, but rather a change issue wanted by a large majority of riders across America.
I think that's an unfair accusation. DC and Crowther are the ones with their necks and companies' resources on the line when making the decision, and it's cheap talk for anyone else to say they could have pushed harder successfully in the current environment.

Personally, IMO the top priority for the sport in this economic environment is to maintain as much support for the best riders. Being able to see the best talent is far more important driver of the sport than what particular bike they are on. We already had OEM's backing away from support before the economy crashed and it's only gotten worse, as I'm sure any rider who's tried to get a contract for this season will tell you.

I also think you have no basis to infer that 3500 people signed your petition means their are a ton more people willing to slit their wrists on this issue. Self sampling is inherently distorted. The fraction it represents may be 9/10's of the people who care that much about the issue at the pro level. If you got data that says otherwise, lets see it.

I do agree with you that the 150/300 thing would be a great start, better than the 250v250 thing. I'm sure KTM thinks so (and I am a KTM fan); not sure about the other manufacturers that would have to tool production up in this environment.
themrtoad
Profile picture for user themrtoad
Posts
1255
Joined
5/29/2009
Location
SE
themrtoad 1/13/2011 12:14pm
1/13/2011 12:14pm
DC wrote:
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change...
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change? The fear at Yamaha is that Jason Lawrence would show up on a black YZ250 and beat their YZ250Fs, which he probably would based on TWMX's tests last spring when J-Law was a second and a half faster on a 1:40 track, and no way he was at his peak speed or either bike was a factory....

Marvin Musquin on a 250F or Marvin Musquin in a KTM 250 SX outdoors, both bikes from the KTM factory... that's the meaningful test that would be more relevant to this issue.

DC
MX SPorts

Is there an agreement between the manufacturers that we won't compete with a bike that will beat yours. I thought racing was about winning?

Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki shouldn't be that worried since J-Law or Marwin was winning on a bike which there is no demand for. They should feel good that they don't produce or put R & D on a bike which has no market.



hellion
Profile picture for user hellion
Posts
1089
Joined
12/19/2009
Location
Westfield, MA, USA
hellion 1/13/2011 12:16pm
1/13/2011 12:16pm
DC wrote:
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change...
What FTE just wrote is what I am also concerned with: how do you make sure one team doesn't take advantage of this type of change? The fear at Yamaha is that Jason Lawrence would show up on a black YZ250 and beat their YZ250Fs, which he probably would based on TWMX's tests last spring when J-Law was a second and a half faster on a 1:40 track, and no way he was at his peak speed or either bike was a factory....

Marvin Musquin on a 250F or Marvin Musquin in a KTM 250 SX outdoors, both bikes from the KTM factory... that's the meaningful test that would be more relevant to this issue.

DC
MX SPorts

DC, so what is wrong if the two stroke is faster? Ask yourself what is better for the long term of our sport. I know you are going to say that they are free to do whatever they want at the amatuer level, but we all know everyone wants to emulate the pros. Take a stand on this and 20 years from now you will be remembered as the guy who brought moto back to the common person.

Also, I'm a bit surprised you are still paying attention to this thread. Kudos.
TeamGreen
Profile picture for user TeamGreen
Posts
37302
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
TeamGreen 1/13/2011 12:16pm
1/13/2011 12:16pm
burn1986 wrote:
You know the sad part about this is DC and Crowther have the chance to do something worthwhile and helpful for the sport and the fans...
You know the sad part about this is DC and Crowther have the chance to do something worthwhile and helpful for the sport and the fans. Instead they buckle under pressure from the factories. The petition is at 3500, but this represents only a fraction of the people who want to see a change in the AMA Pro rulebook to allow an increase in the 2-stroke displacements. The fact is that increasing the limit to 150cc in the 250F class and 300cc in the 450 class wouldn't make that big of difference (and in fact may not be the best change, but it is the smallest with the least impact). Even a 125 class is doable, but even this is met only with hostility, and some kind of lame rhetoric about trying something that no one has heard of. It's not a 2 vs 4 debate or battle, but rather a change issue wanted by a large majority of riders across America.
FreshTopEnd wrote:
I think that's an unfair accusation. DC and Crowther are the ones with their necks and companies' resources on the line when making the decision, and...
I think that's an unfair accusation. DC and Crowther are the ones with their necks and companies' resources on the line when making the decision, and it's cheap talk for anyone else to say they could have pushed harder successfully in the current environment.

Personally, IMO the top priority for the sport in this economic environment is to maintain as much support for the best riders. Being able to see the best talent is far more important driver of the sport than what particular bike they are on. We already had OEM's backing away from support before the economy crashed and it's only gotten worse, as I'm sure any rider who's tried to get a contract for this season will tell you.

I also think you have no basis to infer that 3500 people signed your petition means their are a ton more people willing to slit their wrists on this issue. Self sampling is inherently distorted. The fraction it represents may be 9/10's of the people who care that much about the issue at the pro level. If you got data that says otherwise, lets see it.

I do agree with you that the 150/300 thing would be a great start, better than the 250v250 thing. I'm sure KTM thinks so (and I am a KTM fan); not sure about the other manufacturers that would have to tool production up in this environment.
You are being ENTIRELY TOO LOGICAL.

You DO realize this is the INtRa-WeB-nEt...right?

I know, I'm a smart ass.

Good points, all.
GrapeApe
Profile picture for user GrapeApe
Posts
8921
Joined
6/7/2010
Location
Mc Kinney, TX, USA
GrapeApe 1/13/2011 12:25pm
1/13/2011 12:25pm
What "Team 2 Stroke" needs is someone like FTE that can present their arguments for them in a succinct, consistent and level-headed manner. Right now those individuals making the arguments in this campaign are not doing the movement any favors. Reading some of these posts makes me want to walk out to the garage and kick my CR250 off the stand.
hellion
Profile picture for user hellion
Posts
1089
Joined
12/19/2009
Location
Westfield, MA, USA
hellion 1/13/2011 12:25pm
1/13/2011 12:25pm
DC wrote:
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther...
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther. You want changes based on assumptions that it will make racing better for some, but what about the others? What if it doesn't work? What if everyone who doesn't make a two-stroke gets whipped? Do you think they will turn around and invest more in two-stroke racing, or just shut the doors and fire all of their riders and mechanics and focus on something else? Because that really might happen, and I don't really think our sport can take that risk right now. It's easy to demand change, based on opinion and preference, but what happens on the ground, in the pits, at a professional race?



It's easy to take risks with other people's careers and demand products to be changed to fit your cost range and preference when you're on a message board or bench racing at the parts counter, or pay way too much for an engine fix, but go to the next industry meeting and tell them you're changing the rules on them after all these years and all this investment, and in these financial times, and see how it goes.



There are real passions on either side of this, but one side is actually making the products and utilizing them in their racing programs, and we still need their participation in our sport. I wish it were different, but until it is, I guess I can't be helpful and useful here.



DC

MX Sports

Shut their doors and focus on something else. I highly doubt it. What are they gonna focus on, road racing? Yeah, that will sell some bikes, NOT. C'mon, we all know Moto is the greatest sport on earth. It's the demographic everyone wants to sell to. Only the bikes are taking the sport out of the demographic. Do you not see the separation between the Monster drinking kids and the people who race modern four strokes. Unless you are a vet rider with a good job or a grommet with a dad who has a good job you are out. When I was coming up in the eighies just about every kid I knew had a YZ or RM in their garage. Some for messing around in the pit, some for racing. Now, it requires a much greater commitment. I can't believe you can't see this or are not willing to do something about it. Who do you really care about? The factory teams, or all the people across this sport who pay their hard earned bucks to ride and race?
gaines1016
Profile picture for user gaines1016
Posts
98
Joined
6/8/2010
Location
Sioux City, IA, USA
gaines1016 1/13/2011 12:26pm
1/13/2011 12:26pm
do some of you not get that this is more then a one man decision. i get the sense that some of you feel like DC could just do whatever he wants with the rules. well this is the real world and big decisions have big consequences that must all be carefully analyzed. peoples livelihoods could be at stake with some of the changes you all propose and that tends to aggravate people.

Pit Row

See All »
themrtoad
Profile picture for user themrtoad
Posts
1255
Joined
5/29/2009
Location
SE
themrtoad 1/13/2011 12:34pm
1/13/2011 12:34pm
DC wrote:
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther...
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther. You want changes based on assumptions that it will make racing better for some, but what about the others? What if it doesn't work? What if everyone who doesn't make a two-stroke gets whipped? Do you think they will turn around and invest more in two-stroke racing, or just shut the doors and fire all of their riders and mechanics and focus on something else? Because that really might happen, and I don't really think our sport can take that risk right now. It's easy to demand change, based on opinion and preference, but what happens on the ground, in the pits, at a professional race?



It's easy to take risks with other people's careers and demand products to be changed to fit your cost range and preference when you're on a message board or bench racing at the parts counter, or pay way too much for an engine fix, but go to the next industry meeting and tell them you're changing the rules on them after all these years and all this investment, and in these financial times, and see how it goes.



There are real passions on either side of this, but one side is actually making the products and utilizing them in their racing programs, and we still need their participation in our sport. I wish it were different, but until it is, I guess I can't be helpful and useful here.



DC

MX Sports

If you let the twostrokes back you will see all guys borned in the 60's,70's and 80's return to the races as spectators. We are the generation who right now raises tomorrows generation of riders/consumers. We've seen the change of direction our sport has taken as it has got more and more expensive since we switched to fourstrokes and therefore we can't afford our kids to experience what we did.

When a new generation isn't there lot's of tracks will shut down, as will dealers and manufacturers and finally Youthstream and MX Sports will be out of business as well.

Then all there is left is Supercross.

You can save our sport. As it is now no one is making a profit, cause there's not enough riders out there due to financial reasons. Kids who start riding bikes do so because either there father raced when he was young, or he wish he had but wasn't allowed/could afford it. You will loose both of these gropus in the future if the sport doesn't take a new direction. Rich people don't like motocross, they prefer sailing, golf, car racing etc. We love motocross but we can't afford those bikes!!!
gaines1016
Profile picture for user gaines1016
Posts
98
Joined
6/8/2010
Location
Sioux City, IA, USA
gaines1016 1/13/2011 12:41pm
1/13/2011 12:41pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 12:43pm
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes



Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)

Yamaha yz250f 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)
themrtoad
Profile picture for user themrtoad
Posts
1255
Joined
5/29/2009
Location
SE
themrtoad 1/13/2011 12:51pm
1/13/2011 12:51pm
gaines1016 wrote:
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team...
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes



Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)

Yamaha yz250f 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)
Ride them both for 60h and try to sell them. The twostroke will be gone quick, the fourstroke will be harder to get a fair amount of money for. Lot's of riders are afraid to buy used 250f's because if they break the cost of repair is the same as what you bought it for.

That's when you decide you have to find a new hobby, and go tell the wifey there will be no holiday trips this year or next year. That's when she walks out of you, so fourstrokes pretty much destroys familys around the world...=) (I'm being ironic now!)
mooch
Profile picture for user mooch
Posts
1801
Joined
2/16/2008
Location
USA
Fantasy
91st
mooch 1/13/2011 12:56pm
1/13/2011 12:56pm
gaines1016 wrote:
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team...
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes



Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)

Yamaha yz250f 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)
themrtoad wrote:
Ride them both for 60h and try to sell them. The twostroke will be gone quick, the fourstroke will be harder to get a fair amount...
Ride them both for 60h and try to sell them. The twostroke will be gone quick, the fourstroke will be harder to get a fair amount of money for. Lot's of riders are afraid to buy used 250f's because if they break the cost of repair is the same as what you bought it for.

That's when you decide you have to find a new hobby, and go tell the wifey there will be no holiday trips this year or next year. That's when she walks out of you, so fourstrokes pretty much destroys familys around the world...=) (I'm being ironic now!)
LoL...funny stuff there. Smile
CamP
Profile picture for user CamP
Posts
6826
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX, USA
CamP 1/13/2011 12:57pm
1/13/2011 12:57pm
gaines1016 wrote:
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team...
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes



Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)

Yamaha yz250f 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)
The YZ250 would be $1,000 cheaper if they were in full production and not limiting the supply. A new 2011 KTM 250SX retails for $6,699. When was the last time a KTM was cheaper than a Japanese bike?
MBBadgers
Profile picture for user MBBadgers
Posts
1173
Joined
10/6/2010
Location
Madison, WI, USA
MBBadgers 1/13/2011 1:00pm
1/13/2011 1:00pm
gaines1016 wrote:
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team...
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes



Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)

Yamaha yz250f 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)
the YZ, breaks you or your dad can take in in the garage work on it for next to nothing, that YZF breaks, you're looking at paying probably more then your mortgage is a month.
hellion
Profile picture for user hellion
Posts
1089
Joined
12/19/2009
Location
Westfield, MA, USA
hellion 1/13/2011 1:00pm
1/13/2011 1:00pm
gaines1016 wrote:
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team...
and maybe im stupid but where is all this money that is being saved (2 vs 4) on new bikes



Yamaha yz250 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)

Yamaha yz250f 2011 MSRP* $7,150 (Team Yamaha Blue/White)
Not to say the price of the bikes will ever go down, because it probably won't. But, a lot of the price we pay for two strokes is to absorb the extra money it costs to build four strokes. In theory, it should cost much less to build a two stroke.
Even more importantly, the 250f was meant to replace a 125, not a 250 two stroke. And there is a big price difference between a 125 and a 250f.
Finally, the cost to own a 250f is great when you look a maintenance shedules. And even more so if you were to grenade one. That, and the fact that people run away from used 250f's make a huge difference in the bottom line.
hammertime
Profile picture for user hammertime
Posts
1583
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
K Town, CA
hammertime 1/13/2011 1:01pm
1/13/2011 1:01pm
i like to make cheese toast using three year aged, white tillamook cheddar!!
MBBadgers
Profile picture for user MBBadgers
Posts
1173
Joined
10/6/2010
Location
Madison, WI, USA
MBBadgers 1/13/2011 1:06pm
1/13/2011 1:06pm
hammertime wrote:
i like to make cheese toast using three year aged, white tillamook cheddar!!
I was in Tillamook recently and got to go to the Cheese Factory, they give free samples and you see how it's made, good times you should go.
scotttydog 1/13/2011 1:15pm
1/13/2011 1:15pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 1:15pm
DC wrote:
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther...
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther. You want changes based on assumptions that it will make racing better for some, but what about the others? What if it doesn't work? What if everyone who doesn't make a two-stroke gets whipped? Do you think they will turn around and invest more in two-stroke racing, or just shut the doors and fire all of their riders and mechanics and focus on something else? Because that really might happen, and I don't really think our sport can take that risk right now. It's easy to demand change, based on opinion and preference, but what happens on the ground, in the pits, at a professional race?



It's easy to take risks with other people's careers and demand products to be changed to fit your cost range and preference when you're on a message board or bench racing at the parts counter, or pay way too much for an engine fix, but go to the next industry meeting and tell them you're changing the rules on them after all these years and all this investment, and in these financial times, and see how it goes.



There are real passions on either side of this, but one side is actually making the products and utilizing them in their racing programs, and we still need their participation in our sport. I wish it were different, but until it is, I guess I can't be helpful and useful here.



DC

MX Sports

Whats up with the "chicken little" mindset?
It's pretty sad really.

so what if an out fit like Husqvarna bring out a new 2 stroke MX bike and grab them selfs a nice big chunk of market share? what will the other OMEs do then?

gaines1016
Profile picture for user gaines1016
Posts
98
Joined
6/8/2010
Location
Sioux City, IA, USA
gaines1016 1/13/2011 1:24pm
1/13/2011 1:24pm
well i just wanted to clarify because it sounded like a claim that a lot of people are kept from starting the sport because of the high initial cost of the 4 stroke and the reality when looking at this comparison the 2 stroke costs the same.

but now we are bringing resale value/maintenance/possible cost if you happen to blow a motor/etc. most of which can be debated as separate topics.

however i dont buy that dad could rebuild the whole 2 stroke motor but wont touch the 4 stroke motor argument. they are not that complicated and any guy who can handle a wrench well enough to get into a 2 stroke motor will most likely be able to dive right into a 4 stroke motor. he may just have to be sure to have a service manual handy Smile
151
Profile picture for user 151
Posts
536
Joined
9/15/2009
Location
Olive Branch, MS, USA
151 1/13/2011 1:31pm
1/13/2011 1:31pm
DC wrote:
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther...
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther. You want changes based on assumptions that it will make racing better for some, but what about the others? What if it doesn't work? What if everyone who doesn't make a two-stroke gets whipped? Do you think they will turn around and invest more in two-stroke racing, or just shut the doors and fire all of their riders and mechanics and focus on something else? Because that really might happen, and I don't really think our sport can take that risk right now. It's easy to demand change, based on opinion and preference, but what happens on the ground, in the pits, at a professional race?



It's easy to take risks with other people's careers and demand products to be changed to fit your cost range and preference when you're on a message board or bench racing at the parts counter, or pay way too much for an engine fix, but go to the next industry meeting and tell them you're changing the rules on them after all these years and all this investment, and in these financial times, and see how it goes.



There are real passions on either side of this, but one side is actually making the products and utilizing them in their racing programs, and we still need their participation in our sport. I wish it were different, but until it is, I guess I can't be helpful and useful here.



DC

MX Sports

Dude I imagine you have done quite a bit more than a few helpful things. THe problem is people refuse to look at things from the other side.

And I understand where you are coming from, being and industry man you know and are firends with industry men from riders and mechanics to promoters and salesmen.

But without the sunday racer those guys have no job, at least right now. If the TV spots continue to be successful then the 2s or 4s question will be obsolete.

SO what if TV and outside sponsors don't pay out? What if the industry contiues to rely on sales for funding? Then your friends still lose their jobs.

Ball sports work with that model because people want to relive their childhoods, well maybe. I imagine there are more viewers than former players.

Nascar works too.

Maybe the average on any Sunday racer is screwed.

Or we could get off our asses stop asking people whose best interest does not lie in "helping" us, and do something ourselves.

Post a reply to: Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes