Epstein list incoming today

mvd61
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7/18/2025 1:32pm
R66 wrote:

Some of you are missing  my point and some of you are twisting my words. Can’t fix stupid. 
Have great weekends!

And I’m sure there’s no way it’s possible you’re missing anyone who’s countering you point. I’ll give Donnie the W on the border situation when he successfully holds those responsible for the open border policy accountable. 

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LungButter
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7/18/2025 1:44pm
R66 wrote:

Some of you are missing  my point and some of you are twisting my words. Can’t fix stupid. 
Have great weekends!

You're absolutely right, if stupid could be fixed we wouldn't have so many dumb fucks like you who just blindly fucking follow every word that comes outta Daddy Donalds mouth.

 

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LoudLove
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7/18/2025 1:48pm

Decorum, gentlemen!  Please!

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lappedrider
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7/18/2025 1:50pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2025 1:50pm

IMG 1916 3.jpeg?VersionId=8QT8AXNqZU1K

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The Shop

early
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7/18/2025 1:52pm

Interesting what happens when you violate the 1 drop (of critical thinking) rule with MAGA

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Bill_Carroll
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7/18/2025 2:12pm

Crazy how this thread keeps jumping on and off the rails 

Why it hasn't been moved to the dumbgeon or clipped is beyond me

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3
7/18/2025 4:03pm

Crazy how this thread keeps jumping on and off the rails 

Why it hasn't been moved to the dumbgeon or clipped is beyond me

Because it comes back on track i guess. 

Also its the greatest issue there is in modern times. 
Espionage through disgusting criminal activities, for controlling segregation and manipulation of basically all of civilisation! Its that massive.

Who pulls the strings at the absolute top…? 

6
Kenny Banyan
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7/18/2025 5:27pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2025 5:27pm
mvd61 wrote:
The world doesn’t work in absolutes. I demand justice for those victims. If it upends our society in the process then that’s the price I’m willing...

The world doesn’t work in absolutes. I demand justice for those victims. If it upends our society in the process then that’s the price I’m willing to pay. Yeah it’s great the border is “secure”. Gee I guess it’s far too much to ask of our leaders to give us things huh? Wild that you’re okay with not getting any of the truth about the Epstein stuff. I cannot wrap my mind around it. Maybe imagine it’s your daughter or granddaughter that got raped so many times that the blood vessels around her eyes burst and got dual black eyes. Imagine for a moment yourself being overpowered by some sick fuck and you get raped. I know it’s hard living in America and not being selfish. Think of the course of those victims lives being forever completely fucked up. I wonder what the stats are on victims of rape are for drug addiction and suicide. Maybe that’ll help put things into perspective for you. I don’t want people here illegally either but I can say I have not been affected by an illegal immigrant in any way, although I do live quite a ways from the southern border. I guess we do have a state of emergency declared on a couple of our Indian reservations for cartel activity so maybe that’ll help put counts? Securing that border is far easier to do than go after this Epstein stuff. Stop applauding Trump and Co for choosing to grab the lowest hanging fruit. 

R66 wrote:
Since you brought it up, do you know who Laken Riley was? She was the beautiful girl from Athens, GA who was raped and murdered by...

Since you brought it up, do you know who Laken Riley was? She was the beautiful girl from Athens, GA who was raped and murdered by an illegal alien. Had the previous administration not had an open border policy, she and many others would still be alive. Whose point are you making?

 

mvd61 wrote:
Yes I am aware of who she is and what happened to her. Absolutely terrible and I 100% agree with you that the previous admin could...

Yes I am aware of who she is and what happened to her. Absolutely terrible and I 100% agree with you that the previous admin could have possibly taken measures to prevent that from happening and should have never under any circumstances had an open border policy. I’m just saying there are thousands of human trafficking victims, I’m not sure how many of them were trafficked with JE and co involved, but currently none of them are getting justice. Lakens killer was tried and locked away, correct? Likely never to see the outside world ever again. 

You’re here saying “well I’m good with a secure border and no Epstein list”. I’m saying that securing the border is a far easier task and we shouldn’t be applauding DJT for something he failed to do in his first four years. When did Laken’s killer/rapist enter the country? There were illegals coming in during DJT first term. I have not looked to see when the killer came. 

The little tiny bit of shit any of these politicians do for us that turns out to be good are few and far in between. We should ALWAYS be expecting more out of them instead of the stupid shit like real sugar in Coca Cola. For fuck sakes. Even if it has real sugar you shouldn’t be consuming the shit anyways. That’s not a win. You have the choice every day to avoid Coke. And for Trump to basically say he doesn’t need anyone as a supporter who wants more of the JE stuff… well, get fucked DJT. I voted for him three times and I’m damn sure hoping all of everyone’s bitching will do a better job of holding him accountable. 

You’re way off on Trumps boarder policy during his first term. Remember Donald didn’t have the house after the mid terms and the dems fought him tooth and nail on building the wall. Remember the….. “Walls are immoral!” Attitude by the dems? They fought him every step of the way on building the wall and implementing any kind of boarder policy including funding.

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mvd61
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7/18/2025 7:22pm
R66 wrote:
Since you brought it up, do you know who Laken Riley was? She was the beautiful girl from Athens, GA who was raped and murdered by...

Since you brought it up, do you know who Laken Riley was? She was the beautiful girl from Athens, GA who was raped and murdered by an illegal alien. Had the previous administration not had an open border policy, she and many others would still be alive. Whose point are you making?

 

mvd61 wrote:
Yes I am aware of who she is and what happened to her. Absolutely terrible and I 100% agree with you that the previous admin could...

Yes I am aware of who she is and what happened to her. Absolutely terrible and I 100% agree with you that the previous admin could have possibly taken measures to prevent that from happening and should have never under any circumstances had an open border policy. I’m just saying there are thousands of human trafficking victims, I’m not sure how many of them were trafficked with JE and co involved, but currently none of them are getting justice. Lakens killer was tried and locked away, correct? Likely never to see the outside world ever again. 

You’re here saying “well I’m good with a secure border and no Epstein list”. I’m saying that securing the border is a far easier task and we shouldn’t be applauding DJT for something he failed to do in his first four years. When did Laken’s killer/rapist enter the country? There were illegals coming in during DJT first term. I have not looked to see when the killer came. 

The little tiny bit of shit any of these politicians do for us that turns out to be good are few and far in between. We should ALWAYS be expecting more out of them instead of the stupid shit like real sugar in Coca Cola. For fuck sakes. Even if it has real sugar you shouldn’t be consuming the shit anyways. That’s not a win. You have the choice every day to avoid Coke. And for Trump to basically say he doesn’t need anyone as a supporter who wants more of the JE stuff… well, get fucked DJT. I voted for him three times and I’m damn sure hoping all of everyone’s bitching will do a better job of holding him accountable. 

You’re way off on Trumps boarder policy during his first term. Remember Donald didn’t have the house after the mid terms and the dems fought him...

You’re way off on Trumps boarder policy during his first term. Remember Donald didn’t have the house after the mid terms and the dems fought him tooth and nail on building the wall. Remember the….. “Walls are immoral!” Attitude by the dems? They fought him every step of the way on building the wall and implementing any kind of boarder policy including funding.

Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded part “I’m gonna get Mexico to pay for it”. 

4
Kenny Banyan
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7/18/2025 10:02pm
mvd61 wrote:
Yes I am aware of who she is and what happened to her. Absolutely terrible and I 100% agree with you that the previous admin could...

Yes I am aware of who she is and what happened to her. Absolutely terrible and I 100% agree with you that the previous admin could have possibly taken measures to prevent that from happening and should have never under any circumstances had an open border policy. I’m just saying there are thousands of human trafficking victims, I’m not sure how many of them were trafficked with JE and co involved, but currently none of them are getting justice. Lakens killer was tried and locked away, correct? Likely never to see the outside world ever again. 

You’re here saying “well I’m good with a secure border and no Epstein list”. I’m saying that securing the border is a far easier task and we shouldn’t be applauding DJT for something he failed to do in his first four years. When did Laken’s killer/rapist enter the country? There were illegals coming in during DJT first term. I have not looked to see when the killer came. 

The little tiny bit of shit any of these politicians do for us that turns out to be good are few and far in between. We should ALWAYS be expecting more out of them instead of the stupid shit like real sugar in Coca Cola. For fuck sakes. Even if it has real sugar you shouldn’t be consuming the shit anyways. That’s not a win. You have the choice every day to avoid Coke. And for Trump to basically say he doesn’t need anyone as a supporter who wants more of the JE stuff… well, get fucked DJT. I voted for him three times and I’m damn sure hoping all of everyone’s bitching will do a better job of holding him accountable. 

You’re way off on Trumps boarder policy during his first term. Remember Donald didn’t have the house after the mid terms and the dems fought him...

You’re way off on Trumps boarder policy during his first term. Remember Donald didn’t have the house after the mid terms and the dems fought him tooth and nail on building the wall. Remember the….. “Walls are immoral!” Attitude by the dems? They fought him every step of the way on building the wall and implementing any kind of boarder policy including funding.

mvd61 wrote:
Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded...

Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded part “I’m gonna get Mexico to pay for it”. 

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back out of it this time around though, don’t ya think?

6
soggy
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7/19/2025 6:49am
You’re way off on Trumps boarder policy during his first term. Remember Donald didn’t have the house after the mid terms and the dems fought him...

You’re way off on Trumps boarder policy during his first term. Remember Donald didn’t have the house after the mid terms and the dems fought him tooth and nail on building the wall. Remember the….. “Walls are immoral!” Attitude by the dems? They fought him every step of the way on building the wall and implementing any kind of boarder policy including funding.

mvd61 wrote:
Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded...

Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded part “I’m gonna get Mexico to pay for it”. 

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back...

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back out of it this time around though, don’t ya think?

He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office you’ll be crying wolf over presidential powers trump expanded. 

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2
7/19/2025 6:56am
mvd61 wrote:
Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded...

Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded part “I’m gonna get Mexico to pay for it”. 

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back...

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back out of it this time around though, don’t ya think?

soggy wrote:
He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office...

He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office you’ll be crying wolf over presidential powers trump expanded. 

You're assuming there will be another election...

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Kenny Banyan
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7/19/2025 7:03am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2025 7:03am
mvd61 wrote:
Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded...

Hey man I’m just going off of what the guy we voted for told us he was going to get done and there was the retarded part “I’m gonna get Mexico to pay for it”. 

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back...

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back out of it this time around though, don’t ya think?

soggy wrote:
He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office...

He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office you’ll be crying wolf over presidential powers trump expanded. 

Probably so….. political supporters have always had amnesia when the other side is in control. That’s a part of politics baby! 💯😂😂

2
soggy
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7/19/2025 7:11am
Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back...

Well , he had the right idea ,know? He definitely was on a learning curve the first time around, I’ll admit that. He’s knocking the back out of it this time around though, don’t ya think?

soggy wrote:
He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office...

He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office you’ll be crying wolf over presidential powers trump expanded. 

Probably so….. political supporters have always had amnesia when the other side is in control. That’s a part of politics baby! 💯😂😂

No that’s just being what republicans have loved slinging around the past decade. A sheep. 

3
Kenny Banyan
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7/19/2025 7:21am
soggy wrote:
He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office...

He’s certainly pushing the boundaries of what a president can do. Short term his supporters love it, long term when a dem is back in office you’ll be crying wolf over presidential powers trump expanded. 

Probably so….. political supporters have always had amnesia when the other side is in control. That’s a part of politics baby! 💯😂😂

soggy wrote:

No that’s just being what republicans have loved slinging around the past decade. A sheep. 

So are you actually implying that democrats don’t pull the exact same nonsense that republicans do? 

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soggy
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7/19/2025 7:54am

Probably so….. political supporters have always had amnesia when the other side is in control. That’s a part of politics baby! 💯😂😂

soggy wrote:

No that’s just being what republicans have loved slinging around the past decade. A sheep. 

So are you actually implying that democrats don’t pull the exact same nonsense that republicans do? 

Not at all. They do the same.  But that’s a term republicans supporters latched onto.  And what was described in what I quoted is a ‘sheep’. The very thing trump supporters claim they aren’t. 

We know both sides play the same game and we willingly go along with it even though we know it’s bad for us. 

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R66
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7/19/2025 8:04am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2025 8:05am

Regarding the border. 
Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some beer and when I get back I park it in the yard and leave the windows down. It rains all night. In the morning the interior of your truck is soaking wet. Whose fault is it?

 

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Kenny Banyan
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7/19/2025 8:11am
soggy wrote:

No that’s just being what republicans have loved slinging around the past decade. A sheep. 

So are you actually implying that democrats don’t pull the exact same nonsense that republicans do? 

soggy wrote:
Not at all. They do the same.  But that’s a term republicans supporters latched onto.  And what was described in what I quoted is a ‘sheep’...

Not at all. They do the same.  But that’s a term republicans supporters latched onto.  And what was described in what I quoted is a ‘sheep’. The very thing trump supporters claim they aren’t. 

We know both sides play the same game and we willingly go along with it even though we know it’s bad for us. 

Tip a the hat to you Sir.💯

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Kenny Banyan
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7/19/2025 8:13am
R66 wrote:
Regarding the border. Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some...

Regarding the border. 
Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some beer and when I get back I park it in the yard and leave the windows down. It rains all night. In the morning the interior of your truck is soaking wet. Whose fault is it?

 

I like that…..😂

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MPJC
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7/19/2025 8:33am
R66 wrote:
Regarding the border. Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some...

Regarding the border. 
Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some beer and when I get back I park it in the yard and leave the windows down. It rains all night. In the morning the interior of your truck is soaking wet. Whose fault is it?

 

The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in this scenario the person who left the window opened is the only person who can be responsible.  But that’s not the kind of scenario we’re interested in given what we’re discussing. We’re discussing situations where people - being with their own will and intentions - are committing crimes. 

A better analogy would be I borrowed your car and didn’t lock the doors and someone helped themself to the stereo. I’m stupid and to blame for leaving the car unlocked, but the thief is ultimately culpable for stealing the stereo. You’d be justifiably angry with me for my carelessness, but my negligence doesn’t give them the right to steal, so they should still be held responsible. 

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R66
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7/19/2025 8:50am
MPJC wrote:
The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in...

The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in this scenario the person who left the window opened is the only person who can be responsible.  But that’s not the kind of scenario we’re interested in given what we’re discussing. We’re discussing situations where people - being with their own will and intentions - are committing crimes. 

A better analogy would be I borrowed your car and didn’t lock the doors and someone helped themself to the stereo. I’m stupid and to blame for leaving the car unlocked, but the thief is ultimately culpable for stealing the stereo. You’d be justifiably angry with me for my carelessness, but my negligence doesn’t give them the right to steal, so they should still be held responsible. 

If I agreed with you we’d both be wrong. 

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Kenny Banyan
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7/19/2025 9:07am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2025 4:44pm
R66 wrote:
Regarding the border. Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some...

Regarding the border. 
Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some beer and when I get back I park it in the yard and leave the windows down. It rains all night. In the morning the interior of your truck is soaking wet. Whose fault is it?

 

MPJC wrote:
The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in...

The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in this scenario the person who left the window opened is the only person who can be responsible.  But that’s not the kind of scenario we’re interested in given what we’re discussing. We’re discussing situations where people - being with their own will and intentions - are committing crimes. 

A better analogy would be I borrowed your car and didn’t lock the doors and someone helped themself to the stereo. I’m stupid and to blame for leaving the car unlocked, but the thief is ultimately culpable for stealing the stereo. You’d be justifiably angry with me for my carelessness, but my negligence doesn’t give them the right to steal, so they should still be held responsible. 

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s the persons fault that had the opportunity to close the window just like the Biden administration had an opportunity to close the border but left it open. It’s actually quite a good illustration. Truck belongs to 45-  Biden borrows the truck- Biden leves the window down - widow is the border - and the rain are the unwanted illegals. That’s how I take it anyway.💯

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soggy
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7/19/2025 9:13am
R66 wrote:
Regarding the border. Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some...

Regarding the border. 
Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some beer and when I get back I park it in the yard and leave the windows down. It rains all night. In the morning the interior of your truck is soaking wet. Whose fault is it?

 

MPJC wrote:
The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in...

The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in this scenario the person who left the window opened is the only person who can be responsible.  But that’s not the kind of scenario we’re interested in given what we’re discussing. We’re discussing situations where people - being with their own will and intentions - are committing crimes. 

A better analogy would be I borrowed your car and didn’t lock the doors and someone helped themself to the stereo. I’m stupid and to blame for leaving the car unlocked, but the thief is ultimately culpable for stealing the stereo. You’d be justifiably angry with me for my carelessness, but my negligence doesn’t give them the right to steal, so they should still be held responsible. 

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s...

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s the persons fault that had the opportunity to close the window just like the Biden administration had an opportunity to close the border but left it open. It’s actually quite a good illustration. Truck belongs to 45-  Biden borrows the truck- Biden leves the window down - widow is the border - and the rain are the unwanted illegals. That’s how I take it anyway.💯

MPJC point is it’s the person who is breaking the law who is at fault. 

If a student is taking a test and the teacher mistakenly has the answers written on the chalkboard from the previous class and the student uses those answers it’s the student who is at fault for cheating. The teacher may be dumb but they didn’t break the rules. 

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MPJC
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7/19/2025 9:23am
R66 wrote:
Regarding the border. Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some...

Regarding the border. 
Let me dumb it down for some of y’all. If I borrow your truck to run down to the Piggly Wiggly to get some beer and when I get back I park it in the yard and leave the windows down. It rains all night. In the morning the interior of your truck is soaking wet. Whose fault is it?

 

MPJC wrote:
The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in...

The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in this scenario the person who left the window opened is the only person who can be responsible.  But that’s not the kind of scenario we’re interested in given what we’re discussing. We’re discussing situations where people - being with their own will and intentions - are committing crimes. 

A better analogy would be I borrowed your car and didn’t lock the doors and someone helped themself to the stereo. I’m stupid and to blame for leaving the car unlocked, but the thief is ultimately culpable for stealing the stereo. You’d be justifiably angry with me for my carelessness, but my negligence doesn’t give them the right to steal, so they should still be held responsible. 

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s...

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s the persons fault that had the opportunity to close the window just like the Biden administration had an opportunity to close the border but left it open. It’s actually quite a good illustration. Truck belongs to 45-  Biden borrows the truck- Biden leves the window down - widow is the border - and the rain are the unwanted illegals. That’s how I take it anyway.💯

I’m not disputing that part of it. But we’re not talking about rain, we’re talking about people, and people, unlike rain, can be responsible for their own actions - even when someone else also did something wrong. 

I once forgot to lock my truck and had a helmet and a few other things stolen. I’m stupid for not locking it but that doesn’t mean that the theif is morally or legally in the clear. Bad actors prey on others’ mistakes and those mistakes shouldn’t blind us to who’s really the bad actor in a situation. The rain analogy doesn’t capture the nuance of a situation where there’s some shared responsibility, but one party is more culpable than the other. 

I’m rather annoyed with myself for bothering engaging with this line of argument because it’s not actually relevant to the topic at hand and R66 doesn’t seem like someone particularly interested in nuance anyways. 

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MPJC
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7/19/2025 9:29am
MPJC wrote:
The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in...

The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in this scenario the person who left the window opened is the only person who can be responsible.  But that’s not the kind of scenario we’re interested in given what we’re discussing. We’re discussing situations where people - being with their own will and intentions - are committing crimes. 

A better analogy would be I borrowed your car and didn’t lock the doors and someone helped themself to the stereo. I’m stupid and to blame for leaving the car unlocked, but the thief is ultimately culpable for stealing the stereo. You’d be justifiably angry with me for my carelessness, but my negligence doesn’t give them the right to steal, so they should still be held responsible. 

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s...

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s the persons fault that had the opportunity to close the window just like the Biden administration had an opportunity to close the border but left it open. It’s actually quite a good illustration. Truck belongs to 45-  Biden borrows the truck- Biden leves the window down - widow is the border - and the rain are the unwanted illegals. That’s how I take it anyway.💯

soggy wrote:
MPJC point is it’s the person who is breaking the law who is at fault. If a student is taking a test and the teacher mistakenly has...

MPJC point is it’s the person who is breaking the law who is at fault. 

If a student is taking a test and the teacher mistakenly has the answers written on the chalkboard from the previous class and the student uses those answers it’s the student who is at fault for cheating. The teacher may be dumb but they didn’t break the rules. 

You’re basic point is exactly right - I’m not sure about that example though. It’s hard to blame the students since the students wouldn’t really be trying to cheat - they’d pretty much have to try really hard not to cheat. 

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soggy
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7/19/2025 9:33am
I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s...

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s the persons fault that had the opportunity to close the window just like the Biden administration had an opportunity to close the border but left it open. It’s actually quite a good illustration. Truck belongs to 45-  Biden borrows the truck- Biden leves the window down - widow is the border - and the rain are the unwanted illegals. That’s how I take it anyway.💯

soggy wrote:
MPJC point is it’s the person who is breaking the law who is at fault. If a student is taking a test and the teacher mistakenly has...

MPJC point is it’s the person who is breaking the law who is at fault. 

If a student is taking a test and the teacher mistakenly has the answers written on the chalkboard from the previous class and the student uses those answers it’s the student who is at fault for cheating. The teacher may be dumb but they didn’t break the rules. 

MPJC wrote:
You’re basic point is exactly right - I’m not sure about that example though. It’s hard to blame the students since the students wouldn’t really be...

You’re basic point is exactly right - I’m not sure about that example though. It’s hard to blame the students since the students wouldn’t really be trying to cheat - they’d pretty much have to try really hard not to cheat. 

Yea perhaps I was a bit hasty in my example but that’s what came to mind. 

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MPJC
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7/19/2025 9:44am
soggy wrote:
MPJC point is it’s the person who is breaking the law who is at fault. If a student is taking a test and the teacher mistakenly has...

MPJC point is it’s the person who is breaking the law who is at fault. 

If a student is taking a test and the teacher mistakenly has the answers written on the chalkboard from the previous class and the student uses those answers it’s the student who is at fault for cheating. The teacher may be dumb but they didn’t break the rules. 

MPJC wrote:
You’re basic point is exactly right - I’m not sure about that example though. It’s hard to blame the students since the students wouldn’t really be...

You’re basic point is exactly right - I’m not sure about that example though. It’s hard to blame the students since the students wouldn’t really be trying to cheat - they’d pretty much have to try really hard not to cheat. 

soggy wrote:

Yea perhaps I was a bit hasty in my example but that’s what came to mind. 

It conveys the basic point that when someone breaks the law, as you aptly put it, it’s the person who breaks the law that’s at fault.

I’m still annoyed to have been drawn into this line of argument in the first place. But it would be wrong of me to blame anyone other than myself! 

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Kenny Banyan
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7/19/2025 9:58am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2025 2:44pm
MPJC wrote:
The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in...

The analogy fails because the rain doesn’t have will or intention and thus isn’t the kind of thing that can be morally culpable. So yes, in this scenario the person who left the window opened is the only person who can be responsible.  But that’s not the kind of scenario we’re interested in given what we’re discussing. We’re discussing situations where people - being with their own will and intentions - are committing crimes. 

A better analogy would be I borrowed your car and didn’t lock the doors and someone helped themself to the stereo. I’m stupid and to blame for leaving the car unlocked, but the thief is ultimately culpable for stealing the stereo. You’d be justifiably angry with me for my carelessness, but my negligence doesn’t give them the right to steal, so they should still be held responsible. 

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s...

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s the persons fault that had the opportunity to close the window just like the Biden administration had an opportunity to close the border but left it open. It’s actually quite a good illustration. Truck belongs to 45-  Biden borrows the truck- Biden leves the window down - widow is the border - and the rain are the unwanted illegals. That’s how I take it anyway.💯

MPJC wrote:
I’m not disputing that part of it. But we’re not talking about rain, we’re talking about people, and people, unlike rain, can be responsible for their...

I’m not disputing that part of it. But we’re not talking about rain, we’re talking about people, and people, unlike rain, can be responsible for their own actions - even when someone else also did something wrong. 

I once forgot to lock my truck and had a helmet and a few other things stolen. I’m stupid for not locking it but that doesn’t mean that the theif is morally or legally in the clear. Bad actors prey on others’ mistakes and those mistakes shouldn’t blind us to who’s really the bad actor in a situation. The rain analogy doesn’t capture the nuance of a situation where there’s some shared responsibility, but one party is more culpable than the other. 

I’m rather annoyed with myself for bothering engaging with this line of argument because it’s not actually relevant to the topic at hand and R66 doesn’t seem like someone particularly interested in nuance anyways. 

My point and I believe 66’s point is that if the window wasn’t left down the rain/ people wouldn’t have been able to get in/ break the law.

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MPJC
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7/19/2025 10:26am
I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s...

I apologize if I’m not clearly grasping your point. But I think all 66 is trying to get across is by his illustration is that it’s the persons fault that had the opportunity to close the window just like the Biden administration had an opportunity to close the border but left it open. It’s actually quite a good illustration. Truck belongs to 45-  Biden borrows the truck- Biden leves the window down - widow is the border - and the rain are the unwanted illegals. That’s how I take it anyway.💯

MPJC wrote:
I’m not disputing that part of it. But we’re not talking about rain, we’re talking about people, and people, unlike rain, can be responsible for their...

I’m not disputing that part of it. But we’re not talking about rain, we’re talking about people, and people, unlike rain, can be responsible for their own actions - even when someone else also did something wrong. 

I once forgot to lock my truck and had a helmet and a few other things stolen. I’m stupid for not locking it but that doesn’t mean that the theif is morally or legally in the clear. Bad actors prey on others’ mistakes and those mistakes shouldn’t blind us to who’s really the bad actor in a situation. The rain analogy doesn’t capture the nuance of a situation where there’s some shared responsibility, but one party is more culpable than the other. 

I’m rather annoyed with myself for bothering engaging with this line of argument because it’s not actually relevant to the topic at hand and R66 doesn’t seem like someone particularly interested in nuance anyways. 

My point and I believe 66’s point is that if the window wasn’t left down the rain/ people wouldn’t have been able to get in/ break...

My point and I believe 66’s point is that if the window wasn’t left down the rain/ people wouldn’t have been able to get in/ break the law.

Of course. That’s not in dispute. The person who left the window/border opened has done something wrong. I’m completely in agreement with that. As a general principle, if I have a duty to protect someone and I fail in that duty then I’m blameworthy. 

The problem is that stopping there would be leaving out something very important. If my failure results in someone harming the person I should have been protecting, the person who caused the harm is culpable for causing the harm. If I messed up and someone jumps on the opportunity to do something terrible, then focusing solely on my failure and ignoring the terrible thing that someone did - that they wouldn’t have been able to do if I hadn’t failed - is leaving out the most morally salient feature of the situation. My failure is bad, but it’s not exculpatory for the bad actors that take advantage of it.

This is why I am objecting to saying “rain/people”: it leaves no room for something essential to understanding the moral landscape of the situation. An analogy aims to highlight relevant similarities and it fails to do that if there are glaring relevant differences. The glaring difference is that rain cannot be responsible for things in the same way as people. It makes no sense to ascribe moral agency to rain so it leaves out something important: more than one moral agent. 

I really don’t know what more I can say about this. 

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