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In 2010
There was no American in the top 5 of the MX1 GPs.. all European
1 American in the top 5 of the MX2 GPs ... 4 European
In the American National ... 2 Americans in the top 5 MX2 two European and 1 ex GP rider
In the US MX1 Nationals - 3 American in the top 5 and a rider from NZ and Australia
So...out of the top five of the four major championships...11 are European..and 6 are American.. two of the other three are ex world champions from NZ and S.A.
So how you can say the European riders/ GP are not as good is just stupid...
And the fact you only use your own national championship and the MXDN as a barometer is not exaclty neutral.
The top Europeans are just as good as the top Americans
10 MX2 Europeans v 10 US AMericans
Roczen Canard
Wilson Barcia
Pourcel Tickle
Herlings Tomac
Frossard Baggett
Musquin Izzi
Searle Durham
Van Horebeck Stroupe
Roelants Hahn
Paulin Seeley
Musquin Trettel
I think Europe could hold it's own there no problem
MX1 Europe v USA say
Cairoli Dungey
Desalle RV
Nagl Stewart
Phillipaerts Short
Ramon Millsaps
Leok Grant
De Dycker Brayton
Bobreyshev Alessi
Barragan Regal
Pourcel Chisholm
again pretty close throughout the field and that list doesn't include Boog, Guaneri, Strijbos etc
I'm not saying European riders are vastly superior I'm just saying it would be close...they are all fast....
Americans don't race World GPs because they don't like living and competing outside their own country against international competition in different countries.GPs also get little media attention in the US and you aspire to what you see. if they don't see it they won't aspire to it..plus they are more comfortable racing and living in the US...
It would be harder for an American to race the GPs than race his own national championship so they don't take the risk of living in Belgium.. travelling to different countries against riders they have never heard of on tracks they aren't used to0... Americans don't race F1 or World Rally either.. not to many come over for road racing either. It is a cultural thing.. Americans love America.
That is why I have a lot of respect for any US rider that does it...like Jimmy Alberston and Zach Osborne...
Listen to Jimmy Albertson's podcast it may enlighten you... you cannot say an American would beat a top GP rider in the GPs .. it is totally different.. just like you can't say for sure a GP rider would win in the US....apples and oranges.
Europeans are just as good as US riders and the GPs are just as good as the AMA series it is just different.
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Most Euros are not even in the same league. Maybe Cairoli is but if he race against Dungey, Bubba, Villopoto, even Short, he would lose. Sorry, Americans are better, get use to it. Maybe someday the Euros will get good and maybe some good American riders would want to go over there to compete but for right now, FIM world champion means very little as Rattrey and Pourcel have found out. To win the AMA championship means you are the best, the MXON just reaffirms that. You can live in your little pipe dream but the Americans are faster and better. Does that mean every American will beat every European every time? No, as you seen, Americans can get bad starts, taken out, crash, and still win. " it is totally different.. just like you can't say for sure a GP rider would win in the US" For sure you could not say this, Pourcel can't say this, niether Rattray, they are world champs riding against many of our riders that have less than 5 years experience. LOL
Ok I am done taughting you. I am most impressed how well some of the little European teams do over here, even though they don't win, they have shoe string budgets and lack the resources that the bigger European and American teams yet they still come over here and give it their all. Hats off to them.
lets look at the list based on REALITY!
Roczen - Canard
Herlings - Wilson
Frossard - Barcia
Musquin - Pourcel
Van Horebeck - Tickle
Roelants - Tomac
Paulin - Baggett
Musquin - Izzi
- Searle
- Durham
- Stroupe
- Hahn
- Seeley
- Trettel
and you missed in OUR MX2 class this year...
Ratray
Wiemer
Wharton
Davalos
Baker
Antsie
Morias
Friese
Les Smith
there is 23 riders that can top 10 it here. top 5 it for most of them. Do you really want me to break down the 450 class?
the original discussion was on how USA dominates. We have a bigger pool to pull from to make a team, all things economical relatively equal, but thats only part of it. That gives us a bigger pool or top tier riders, but we also have a faster "guage stick" because our top tier has to race others that are top tier also and deeper.
Again, even the GP riders state, its a dream to come HERE because this is where the fastest riders are. Im not talking washed up champions, Im talking guys in their PRIME that are making HUGE bank in the GPs and are will to forgo that bank to race here to test themselves. The riders know it.
Im not saying the GP's are clownshoes, you guys have some VERY respectable and very FAST riders. but then they come here and have to get even faster.
Roczen is a STUD. he had to push himself over the edge though to stay in front of trey. if he was 10 seconds out on the last lap, hell 5 seconds out, I would easily say he had trey covered with a lap to go. he was less than 2 seconds. And was having to push to stay there and went over the edge. Trey got him. Thats a str8 up win. Oh and where is Roczen coming to race? want to continue?
make no mistake, just because you put the word "World" in front of a series doesnt mean its THE premier series..... especially when a rider 30 seconds a lap off the pace gets points.
Nuff Said!
Determination and hard work are more psychological characterists of an individual though, not sociological elements. Of course, you could measure the work ethic and determination of a country. In that case, America's obesity rate and immigrant labor force for jobs that require "manual labor / hard work" would probably put us near the bottom of that list.
And finally, using Ernesto Fonseca as example coming from a poorer country does not debunk the theory. Though it does add merit to his motocross achievements as an individual (coming from an extremely underprivileged country), it only supports the theory. With a country like Costa Rica (and others similar) you wouldn't expect much of a dent in the Motocross Des Nation's record books, and that's exactly what you see. They haven't won a title as a country, and this year they didn't even finish in the top twenty at Des Nations; though I am sure their racers were the most hardworking, talented, and determined motocross athletes the country produced.
Judging by their hourly wadges, I doubt very many people of their 4.5 million population own off-road motorcycles. Not to say that it's impossible for a great racer to come from such a country - Ernesto Fonseca being a great example - but when you look at the statistics, it is very unlikely. What Ernesto pulled off is amazing!
For that matter, you can claim the success of only a FEW successful GP riders. If a guy comes over and sets the world on fire in his first year or two ( Langston, Pourcel, Reed), you have a case.
HOWEVER, Can you my friend honestly give the GP's credit for a guy like Brent Metcalf taking second in our Nats this year? He came over a solid rider 5-10 place guy... he hones his skills by riding with the very best for what 6 years or so? He fine tunes his skills and learns a TON MORE speed by compettion in AMERICA then 6 years after he came here, you are going to claim him as a GP guy??
If the argument is nationals vs GP, and we are debating depth. You need to give America all the riders who competed here this year, regardless of where they are from, but team them based on where they RACE.
Lemme know if you guys think this is accurate as I know mccread wont defend himself once beaten as proven by the Dungey vs Cairolli post of 2 days ago.
Obesity in the United States has been increasingly cited as a major health issue in recent decades. While many industrialized countries have experienced similar increases, obesity rates in the United States are among the highest in the world with as of 2007 74.1 % of the adults being overweight or obese.
it must be the 25.6% who are not overweight or obese that do well at motocross.
Just joshing you brother. I have mucho respecto for the GP riders. I thought the NZ team had a great shot. Coppins is world class and BT is one of my favorites. I have been to NZ as well. Beautiful country and great people.
However, I'm not as motivated as you guys are. Let us throw some math in there for arguments sake. Cairoli lost the first moto by how many seconds? (7 or so?)
Riddle me this...
For what fraction of time does the population and middle class prosperity amount for?
Is it somewhere around .0000000000001 seconds in race time? Perhaps we could get a rocket specialist to calculate such a number?
English: nickname from Middle English schort ‘short’.
Scottish and northern Irish: reduced Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac an Gheairr, Mac an Ghirr ‘son of the short man’ (see McGirr).
Dungey
English (Kent): possibly a habitational name for someone from Denge or Dungeness in Kent. Perhaps also an altered spelling of French Danger.
Canard
French: from canard ‘duck’, probably a nickname for someone thought to resemble a duck in some way. Perhaps an altered spelling of Scottish Kinnard, an early spelling of Kinnaird.
In other countrys riders have to pick up and move or live in another country for the season, just to get a good riding spot.
Pit Row
We would have to take that six year period and calculate the population growth, the motorcycle sales, the rider sign ups, and of course figure that into the fractions of a second that this equals in the real world. The result could be betting odds on next years MXoN.
If you want to be pessimistic, you could also figure in the years that the US has lost the MXoN. If you want to get all head shrinker about it, do all of the numbers....any possible variables on the situation and ask yourself if it even matters in the real world...does it?
Perhaps the Soviet Union win in 1978 was the result of a simple gun to the head. They might have been American prisoners as well. How do YOU know?
SHUT the fuck up.. You obviously have NO clue..
And for the rest of you.. I think you misunderstood Hanks post.. if any of you actually read it..
All of you can´t be this stupid for real?
the-wood109 for example.. No one is blaming that Cairoli got beat on population or middle class prosperity.. Get you head out of your ass and read the post again!
In conclusion, any country with a motocross resume like America, in regards to the population, wealth, size, and talent pool (to choose from, due to the aforementioned factors) would be expected to have similar results.
In regards to Trey's win, I can see you're refering to the qualifier. Roczen caught and passed Canard but Trey kept the pressure on and Ken crashed. Fine. However no one can say for sure whether that was due to Ken riding over his head or not. It could've just been a normal mid race mistake. Like Barica he's young and he does crash sometimes though not as much as Barcia. But I agree it was probably caused by pressure.
However when it came to the main races Ken was in a different league to Trey, a different universe. I mean he passed and pulled away from short before Andrew crashed. You could argu that in Trey's case he was buried in the pack after suffering terrible starts and that otherwise he'd have been up there battling with Ken, and I would agree with that. Trey's a very good rider and I'm sure given the chance, it would've been an almighty battle.
But if you do argu that, then you must also submit that Short did NOT beat Cairoli through a straight up one on one battle. I'm not saying you said it but Ive seen a lot of people chuck that comment around i.e "Short beat Cairoli" etc etc.
He didn't.
Well ok, he did technically but not in a meaningful way that would make one conclude that Short is better/faster than Cairoli. Antonio was buried in the pack and took almost the entire moto and probably all his energy to climb his way back up. Short got the holeshot.
The point I'm trying to make is that for every claim, the opposition can always come up with a counter claim. And therefore using reference to individual one on one battles to try and prove which series is better is pointless. There are so many other factors, so many biases, assumptions, guesses and opinions. What seem's logical and fair to one party may seem completely below the belt, bordering on a lie to the other. It just depends what side of the fence you sit on.
I totally agree that most people eventually want to race in America but that's because there's more money to made in the U.S and the exposure is greater. No problem. But neither of those two things have anything to do with which series is faster. For the Europeans that have gone over there, with exception of Searle and a late blooming Rattray, they've all done about what we'd expect. All have won races and some have won championships. Not after 5 or so years but right away.
or are you just speculating? guessing maybe? Good luck..
Most we're desperate, seeking any oppertunity possible in the new world to survive, some would've have been white slaves, transport prisoners. Of course as with any mass immigration there's always a mix of poor, middle class and rich. Good and bad, some buisiness owners, some rapists and murderers. Most just indifferent.
Without turing 3rd reich, I'm not saying genetics doesn't play any part in the nature of a race. I'm sure part of Britains former success and America's too was due to slight genetic influences but it's mainly cultural. America was always going to bloom and that's why every bugger wanted it. You have huge land mass with vast resources. But just like everyone else, you're not descended from thousands upon thousands of John Rambo's lol.
I guess the grass always looks greener elsewhere except if you're american!! All Euros teenagers want to go to California have a pick up truck, the villa with jacuzzi, race in front of 60000 and rip those loamy tracks all week and hot californian babes of course. We don't dream about a house in Belgium... well the Euro riders have the same thoughts and line up feeling like underdogs.
No one is saying that there isnt great riders racing the GP's, but the GP's as a whole is not a strong as the nationals. GP champs Pourcel, and Rattray have had some success in the nationals but neither has won a title yet. Tommy Searle has not had the same success. Musquin will be here next season and Roczen and Herilings, the future of the GP's are coming as soon as they are old enough as well. Will they have the same success? We shall see, but the fact remains, not one single elite factory level rider from the AMA series is heading to Europe, yet all your best save for Cairoli are coming over. The nationals are the premier series in the world and the majority of the worlds best ride there.
I remember BT said Windham made him get nervous and ride tight at the 2005 MXDN ... BT was leading and WIndham had got into second... the only reason BT was nervous was becasue of the name not the speed -he grew up watching Windham and couldn't believe he was now racing him and beating him...you can bet Windham didn't have the same problem with BT... he probably didn't even know what Ben looked like lol
But I think the main thing is the size of the countries... Europe as a whole can run with the US riders... but as countries it is the USA's to lose mostly becasue they are the biggest motocross nation on earth... this then creates a false perception in the USA that they are a level a head of European riders as people make a judgement that the USA riders are better than thr European riders based on Nations team results.
The MXDN result shows that the USA are the best MX country in the world....but it doesn't mean the American riders are better than Europeans individually or that the AMA is better than GPs..which seems to be the take away in America lol The fact is they are all similarly fast... on a certain day an American rider could be the best in the world on another a rider from Europe or the S Hemisphere...
At the nations it was Dungey and Roczen who proved to be the best individually on the Sunday, the day before it was Cairoli and Canard who won the qualifying races... that is how quickly it can change and how similar everyone is. Dungey is just awesome but so is Cairoli you can't really say who is better than the other because they race two different series.
For me the GP series is the best way to decide who is the best in the world individually it is the most neutral series..you can't say the US nationals or the Nations is a neutral place to decide..Americans have an advantage in their own country and the nations is a one weekend team race.
Nice post.
I guess both entities are lucky Russia doesn't play anymore.
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