It’s time to slow bikes down

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

I still wanna see the baddest dudes, racing the baddest bikes, on the baddest tracks. It’s a spectacle..Nobody goes to the drag strip to see a...

I still wanna see the baddest dudes, racing the baddest bikes, on the baddest tracks. It’s a spectacle..

Nobody goes to the drag strip to see a 1L Nissan Micra take a run.. but top fuel is dangerous!😱

PRM31 wrote:

I’ve read this book before. The Open (500cc) class was the top, until it wasn’t. A 1986 CR500 had little in common with a 1978 RM400...

I’ve read this book before. The Open (500cc) class was the top, until it wasn’t. A 1986 CR500 had little in common with a 1978 RM400. There comes a point when bikes advance beyond what makes any sense for the sport. Dejavu all over again…. We’re to the point where making that change again needs to be considered.

There is zero need to stick to the 450/250 alignment. 

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

I still wanna see the baddest dudes, racing the baddest bikes, on the baddest tracks. It’s a spectacle..Nobody goes to the drag strip to see a...

I still wanna see the baddest dudes, racing the baddest bikes, on the baddest tracks. It’s a spectacle..

Nobody goes to the drag strip to see a 1L Nissan Micra take a run.. but top fuel is dangerous!😱

h20 wrote:

I’m a die hard motocross fan but never watched a single car racing series or race.  I think F1 and Masvar are boring as shit

Rosso391 wrote:

Go back to 125 and 250 2-strokes. Majority of crash problems gone. Ask McGrath. He was the first guy to say the 4 strokes just have...

Go back to 125 and 250 2-strokes. Majority of crash problems gone. Ask McGrath. He was the first guy to say the 4 strokes just have too much weigh and inertia. Have the same exact crash/speed on both bikes, it's still way worse on the 4 stroke.

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

The 500 class died when the 250 class was consistently going faster. 

As yet that hasn’t happened (consistently) with the 250F/450F classes.

truck wrote:

What big changes have been made to modern 450s? Yamaha turning the engine around 15 years ago? Electric start? Most of what makes up the press...

What big changes have been made to modern 450s? Yamaha turning the engine around 15 years ago? Electric start? Most of what makes up the press releases for the new models would be just as applicable to less powerful bikes and manufacturers still sell plenty of bold new graphics bikes every year. 

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Go ride a 2010 450 and see if you can tell the difference. Development is slow, changes are small, but over the course of a decade or...

Go ride a 2010 450 and see if you can tell the difference. 
Development is slow, changes are small, but over the course of a decade or two, bikes are much better, and riders are going faster. 

the purpose of every single new model release is convince buyers this model is better than the last one. And by ‘better’ they mean faster- this is racing after all,.

If this ‘we’re slowing things down’ takes ahold, what are manufacturers going to say? 
“Refined chassis to aid handling- you’ll definitely go slower with this”

“Lower RPM ceiling- this will definitely make you go slower”

Who is going to want to buy??🤷‍♀️

Nothing will get lighter. Nothing will get easier to ride. Nothing will give better traction. Nothing will improve handling- because all of these things result in going faster. 

The only single benefit I can think of would less maintenance- because of the less stressed engines and more durable (heavier) components.

The manufacturers are not going to go for this.

Radical wrote:

If the engines are slightly smaller, they're lighter.  The minimum weight of bikes can be lowered in the new requirements.That can be a selling point, "Lighter...

If the engines are slightly smaller, they're lighter.  The minimum weight of bikes can be lowered in the new requirements.

That can be a selling point, "Lighter, better handling, MX2029 race specification compliant". (or whatever year we decide. It's probably 2030+).

The way this transition will have to work is that after a reasonable amount of time, local races will require the new specs.

The pros will switch in a single season, scheduled to occur a few years ahead of time.

I don't believe that in the 50+ or 60+ class (especially Novice), that the speed of the bike plays as big of a part of lap times as in other classes.  I do just fine on my 125.  My point being that we can make the transition fairly smooth, and transition out the older spec bikes over a reasonable amount of time, where it isn't requiring everyone to go out and buy a new bike.

I need to find the plan I've posted a few times, and get it posted.  I'll make sure it happens sometime this weekend, then we can all decide if it's a good starting point, or not, then put our heads together and solve this.  It needs to happen, or a government will do it for us.  Let's do it.

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Go ride a 2010 450 and see if you can tell the difference. Development is slow, changes are small, but over the course of a decade or...

Go ride a 2010 450 and see if you can tell the difference. 
Development is slow, changes are small, but over the course of a decade or two, bikes are much better, and riders are going faster. 

the purpose of every single new model release is convince buyers this model is better than the last one. And by ‘better’ they mean faster- this is racing after all,.

If this ‘we’re slowing things down’ takes ahold, what are manufacturers going to say? 
“Refined chassis to aid handling- you’ll definitely go slower with this”

“Lower RPM ceiling- this will definitely make you go slower”

Who is going to want to buy??🤷‍♀️

Nothing will get lighter. Nothing will get easier to ride. Nothing will give better traction. Nothing will improve handling- because all of these things result in going faster. 

The only single benefit I can think of would less maintenance- because of the less stressed engines and more durable (heavier) components.

The manufacturers are not going to go for this.

Radical wrote:

If the engines are slightly smaller, they're lighter.  The minimum weight of bikes can be lowered in the new requirements.That can be a selling point, "Lighter...

If the engines are slightly smaller, they're lighter.  The minimum weight of bikes can be lowered in the new requirements.

That can be a selling point, "Lighter, better handling, MX2029 race specification compliant". (or whatever year we decide. It's probably 2030+).

The way this transition will have to work is that after a reasonable amount of time, local races will require the new specs.

The pros will switch in a single season, scheduled to occur a few years ahead of time.

I don't believe that in the 50+ or 60+ class (especially Novice), that the speed of the bike plays as big of a part of lap times as in other classes.  I do just fine on my 125.  My point being that we can make the transition fairly smooth, and transition out the older spec bikes over a reasonable amount of time, where it isn't requiring everyone to go out and buy a new bike.

I need to find the plan I've posted a few times, and get it posted.  I'll make sure it happens sometime this weekend, then we can all decide if it's a good starting point, or not, then put our heads together and solve this.  It needs to happen, or a government will do it for us.  Let's do it.

profeshenal125 wrote:

I had fun dicing with mainly 450,s some  250f  I did 4 motos steep uphill start . I pulled a Stark for 50 ft last race...

I had fun dicing with mainly 450,s some  250f  I did 4 motos steep uphill start . I pulled a Stark for 50 ft last race. My groin was painful 1st corner it hurt a ton of injuries nerve in shoulder , back, leg, numb ft , etc.  landing on a down hill a new yzf250 30+ rider was there 1st foing a outside rut. I dove inside & pulled him up the steep hill into a steep drop .  I went banzi on the straight & passed me . Rt corner I went inside to outside to cut his line off. I missed it by .1 we hit the rollers he goes rt side I go left . Last roller I downshift in the air to 1st brake slide pivot inside & passed him back . Quick tap of 2 gears & hit more rollers sprint to get away .  Another off camber left sweeping up hill a 450 is more outside I do a inside sweep on the mid range but not wo because you,d wash out.  Then more gas so a 2 gear up shift pulls . I passed him in the air off a table top & looked ovr , that was cool .  Last place starts its fun it takes 1/ 8 of the track to see bikes.  But once you do it’s race craft 5 of us had a fun dice the 450,s are passable .  The top few on the start are gone . My head stem bearing is a bit loose wore out , can turn bars easy . I usually hv wear you hv to push to turn the bars.  I had extreme head shake .  Pic I,m not on the top of the hill there-more  people to watch the 125 race .  It rained all night into the morning a lighter turn out .

Radical wrote:

If the engines are slightly smaller, they're lighter.  The minimum weight of bikes can be lowered in the new requirements.That can be a selling point, "Lighter...

If the engines are slightly smaller, they're lighter.  The minimum weight of bikes can be lowered in the new requirements.

That can be a selling point, "Lighter, better handling, MX2029 race specification compliant". (or whatever year we decide. It's probably 2030+).

The way this transition will have to work is that after a reasonable amount of time, local races will require the new specs.

The pros will switch in a single season, scheduled to occur a few years ahead of time.

I don't believe that in the 50+ or 60+ class (especially Novice), that the speed of the bike plays as big of a part of lap times as in other classes.  I do just fine on my 125.  My point being that we can make the transition fairly smooth, and transition out the older spec bikes over a reasonable amount of time, where it isn't requiring everyone to go out and buy a new bike.

I need to find the plan I've posted a few times, and get it posted.  I'll make sure it happens sometime this weekend, then we can all decide if it's a good starting point, or not, then put our heads together and solve this.  It needs to happen, or a government will do it for us.  Let's do it.

profeshenal125 wrote:

I had fun dicing with mainly 450,s some  250f  I did 4 motos steep uphill start . I pulled a Stark for 50 ft last race...

I had fun dicing with mainly 450,s some  250f  I did 4 motos steep uphill start . I pulled a Stark for 50 ft last race. My groin was painful 1st corner it hurt a ton of injuries nerve in shoulder , back, leg, numb ft , etc.  landing on a down hill a new yzf250 30+ rider was there 1st foing a outside rut. I dove inside & pulled him up the steep hill into a steep drop .  I went banzi on the straight & passed me . Rt corner I went inside to outside to cut his line off. I missed it by .1 we hit the rollers he goes rt side I go left . Last roller I downshift in the air to 1st brake slide pivot inside & passed him back . Quick tap of 2 gears & hit more rollers sprint to get away .  Another off camber left sweeping up hill a 450 is more outside I do a inside sweep on the mid range but not wo because you,d wash out.  Then more gas so a 2 gear up shift pulls . I passed him in the air off a table top & looked ovr , that was cool .  Last place starts its fun it takes 1/ 8 of the track to see bikes.  But once you do it’s race craft 5 of us had a fun dice the 450,s are passable .  The top few on the start are gone . My head stem bearing is a bit loose wore out , can turn bars easy . I usually hv wear you hv to push to turn the bars.  I had extreme head shake .  Pic I,m not on the top of the hill there-more  people to watch the 125 race .  It rained all night into the morning a lighter turn out .

Radical wrote:

It sounds like a really fun race!  I hope you did well!

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

The 500 class died when the 250 class was consistently going faster. 

As yet that hasn’t happened (consistently) with the 250F/450F classes.

PRM31 wrote:

That’s not how I remember it. Fewer and fewer people raced them (reduced sales). There were issues with manufacturers, having three major classes, etc. But ultimately sales...

That’s not how I remember it. 

Fewer and fewer people raced them (reduced sales). There were issues with manufacturers, having three major classes, etc. But ultimately sales. Sales went down because riders had the choice of good 125s and 250s and chose them instead. The same choices (alternative) don’t really exist the way they did then, but that could change given some time.

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

The 500 class died when the 250 class was consistently going faster. 

As yet that hasn’t happened (consistently) with the 250F/450F classes.

PRM31 wrote:

That’s not how I remember it. Fewer and fewer people raced them (reduced sales). There were issues with manufacturers, having three major classes, etc. But ultimately sales...

That’s not how I remember it. 

Fewer and fewer people raced them (reduced sales). There were issues with manufacturers, having three major classes, etc. But ultimately sales. Sales went down because riders had the choice of good 125s and 250s and chose them instead. The same choices (alternative) don’t really exist the way they did then, but that could change given some time.

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

It started a few years before that. I suppose in Europe the last year of the 500s being the premier class may have been 1991, or 92. in...

It started a few years before that. 

I suppose in Europe the last year of the 500s being the premier class may have been 1991, or 92. 

in the UK National championship the classes changed to ‘open’ class where riders could choose 250 or 500. 
Riders like Kurt Nicoll, Rob Herring discovered that they could ride a 250 faster, so chose to ride those & in turn dropped from the 500GP class down to the 250s. 

Alas, the buying public cottoning on to same thing. The 500 was dead. 

What year was the last 500cc AMA national championship? 1993??

PRM31 wrote:

That’s not how I remember it. Fewer and fewer people raced them (reduced sales). There were issues with manufacturers, having three major classes, etc. But ultimately sales...

That’s not how I remember it. 

Fewer and fewer people raced them (reduced sales). There were issues with manufacturers, having three major classes, etc. But ultimately sales. Sales went down because riders had the choice of good 125s and 250s and chose them instead. The same choices (alternative) don’t really exist the way they did then, but that could change given some time.

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

It started a few years before that. I suppose in Europe the last year of the 500s being the premier class may have been 1991, or 92. in...

It started a few years before that. 

I suppose in Europe the last year of the 500s being the premier class may have been 1991, or 92. 

in the UK National championship the classes changed to ‘open’ class where riders could choose 250 or 500. 
Riders like Kurt Nicoll, Rob Herring discovered that they could ride a 250 faster, so chose to ride those & in turn dropped from the 500GP class down to the 250s. 

Alas, the buying public cottoning on to same thing. The 500 was dead. 

What year was the last 500cc AMA national championship? 1993??

Gravel wrote:

Mike LaRocco is the current 500cc national champion!500s didn’t sell very well once the manufacturers figured out the water cooled bikes would easily make ~60hp, but...

Mike LaRocco is the current 500cc national champion!

500s didn’t sell very well once the manufacturers figured out the water cooled bikes would easily make ~60hp, but the production bikes never got the development they needed to be easily rideable. They were just unruly blister makers that were only fun when there was a lot of room to spare, anything tight meant the bike was in charge for most riders.

100-200-300cc classes, either 2 or 4 stroke, would be a great formula. Maybe even 350 instead of 300, for the lazy guys (me) to be able to lug around. 

Tracks need better notification for riders approaching blind sections, either from live flaggers or a tech based system of green-yellow-red lights.

Safety gear should get ugly and effective again. 

profeshenal125 wrote:

I had fun dicing with mainly 450,s some  250f  I did 4 motos steep uphill start . I pulled a Stark for 50 ft last race...

I had fun dicing with mainly 450,s some  250f  I did 4 motos steep uphill start . I pulled a Stark for 50 ft last race. My groin was painful 1st corner it hurt a ton of injuries nerve in shoulder , back, leg, numb ft , etc.  landing on a down hill a new yzf250 30+ rider was there 1st foing a outside rut. I dove inside & pulled him up the steep hill into a steep drop .  I went banzi on the straight & passed me . Rt corner I went inside to outside to cut his line off. I missed it by .1 we hit the rollers he goes rt side I go left . Last roller I downshift in the air to 1st brake slide pivot inside & passed him back . Quick tap of 2 gears & hit more rollers sprint to get away .  Another off camber left sweeping up hill a 450 is more outside I do a inside sweep on the mid range but not wo because you,d wash out.  Then more gas so a 2 gear up shift pulls . I passed him in the air off a table top & looked ovr , that was cool .  Last place starts its fun it takes 1/ 8 of the track to see bikes.  But once you do it’s race craft 5 of us had a fun dice the 450,s are passable .  The top few on the start are gone . My head stem bearing is a bit loose wore out , can turn bars easy . I usually hv wear you hv to push to turn the bars.  I had extreme head shake .  Pic I,m not on the top of the hill there-more  people to watch the 125 race .  It rained all night into the morning a lighter turn out .