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There are some battles in life where you get to a certain point and realise that the effort to continue is way out of proportion to the expected benefit, or that no amount of effort is going to gain anything at all. It seems a few people are not yet making that connection.
OEM's aren't interested in racing two strokes. Pro riders and teams are not interested in racing two strokes. Pro racing organising bodies are not interested in racing two strokes. Amateurs who want to race two strokes can do so. Who else is left?
Why should YOU care that a group of individuals are allowed to voice their opinion on this?
How is it impacting YOU?
4 strokes are rubbish if they weren't I'd still have, now 2 strokes are not perfect ether (jetting, mixxing gas and for some the power delivery) but they would be alot better with some of the new technology thats as come about.
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Ha! Maybe you should talk to Honda and Suzuki about their views on whether winning equates to sales. Racing yes, winning no.
If you are so strongly anti-2stroke and you were actually around when there were no 4 strokes...why so bitter when it comes to this topic?
It's almost as bad as the pro-2stroke guys who are giving DC grief.
The assholes mentioned by FTE are clearly on both sides of this discussion.
But I am realistic, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect that Pro Motocross rules are going to lead the OEM's business decisions whether to make certain bikes. And right now, with the Yen going through the roof against almost all other currencies, the Japanese are confronted with a doubly tough market where their products are going to cost more to worldwide buyers, who right now have a lot less disposable income to spend on non-essential products.
This petition is only to raise the 125 and 250 2-strokes to 150 and 300. That's all it says. This is not a crusade or war for the 2-stroke die hards.
Two strokes are still allowed in Pro Racing. This is a small change. It's not meant to try and cause everyone to alter their racing programs or cause factories to immediately drop everything they are doing. This will simple enhance a rule that is already in place.
I mentioned that it was a battle, but that is not entirely true. It is a catalyst. The purpose of this is to begin discussions and approach the AMA with a concern.
If you read through my posts here and elsewhere on this topic I'm not against two strokes at all. I'm certainly not bitter - but some people, examples of which are in this thread - choose to resort to name calling and outright insults, over the fact that a certain type of motorcycle is no longer manufactured. There's bitterness there that I can't personally fathom.
I find it amusing that many people arguing for the return of two strokes to pro racing use mainly emotive or nostalgic arguments, perhaps in the hope that OEM's or others might feel bad or somehow change their minds out of a sense of "fairness". Some of my favourites:
"tracks were changed to help the four strokes"
"racing is boring now that it's all four strokes"
"two strokes make more power per cc"
"I want a choice"
"OEM's introduced four strokes to make more profit and screw the customers"
etc, etc
Few that I've seen or read about actually try to put together a rational case based on what might make an OEM or other influential body consider a change i.e. something that makes a compelling financial case. Fewer still seem to grasp that many companies, especially big ones with major public profiles, actually do take seriously things like the threat of law changes that might affect their products and markets, or that public perception of where their company stands on issues like responsible environmental stewardship can have a real effect on their profitability.
I have no dog in this fight, other than being a spectator of the sport. The sport will endure without two strokes.
Again 150 against 250 & 300 against 450.
This is reasonable.
Pit Row
You might want to check out: http://www.envirofit.org/...ts/2-stroke-retrofit there's a nice laid out article about it here: http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=2394
and Orbital air-assisted direct injection which is apparently what KTM have been trailing for a few years.
And these companies have proven that a Direct Injection 2-stroke will have lower emissions and fuel consumption than a 4-stroke equivalent.
Apparently from what I've read (so feel free to take it with a pinch of salt), although Direct Injection had been trailed on 2-strokes in the 90's they were unable to get it to work reliably and keep up with the extremely short injection cycle window, whereas now ECU's can easily deal with and react to these factors.
It may seem like it's too little too late, but if projects like envirofit continue to expand it will increase demand for small 2-stroke road bikes in the far east and should make the big bike companies look at 2-strokes properly again.
(This from a few years ago gives some more info on DI 2-strokes as well: http://twostrokemotocross.com/...strokes-strike-back/ )
Getting back on topic: While I'm all for trying to get 2-strokes allowed in AMA Pro level and allowing smaller companies to compete aswell like Husky and TM, I do foresee the a slight issue in that if they did increase the allowed 2-stroke capacities by much when you add on Direct Injection the balance would tilt considerably in favour of 2-strokes. (as in a 300cc Direct Injection 2-stroke may, be too much for a 450 4-stroke to compete with)
I guess the problem is we just don't know enough, but we do want more variety and choice.
On the premise of this thread it is more than just a slight rule change. To accomplish what is required would take three rule changes but before even going there as the last thing this sport needs in this current economic climate is to piss off the OEMs. If anyone doubts that they must not be familiar with the road racing debacle two years ago.
Newmann I like your 125 idea a lot and I know the teams wouldn't mind having it in there due to the when the women race it gives everyone more time to get the bikes ready.
Throwing out the homologation rule is simple in theory but when you think of the implications for the OEMs who have supported the sport for year I'm not sure it would be the prudent thing to do.
Without a doubt it was a major mistake to get rid of the 125 class given the jump between an 85 and 250.
My vote would be leave the displacement rules alone for professional racing but re introduce a 125 class. My reasoning is as someone else pointed out pro racing is the such a small segment of the amount of people that race for those of us who want to change the rules for the pros strikes me as the tail wagging the dog.
If anything else was going to be changed I would look to see things like spec motors/stock motors in the 250 class to reduce the cost of racing......lots of issues...no simple fixes and I sure as hell don't have all the answers.
Maybe one option would be have one 250 series be a spec motor/stock class and the other as it is today.
You ask how is it impacting me??? IT ISN'T ! Thats why you and I should have no voice in it. Go ride your 2 stroke and have the time of your life....nobody is stopping you.
The racing is way better on 4 strokes. It closed the talent gap like nothing ever has in the sport....short of a mud race.
2 strokes separate the riders more.....they are harder to ride and take more talent and skill. Do you agree or disagree?
Davey Coombs, I do not envy you one bit....and I'm glad the sport has guys like you around.....moto on!
If you want to participate in something that equalizes talent and is easier,
than MX is not your sport.
The racing now after the first lap can sometimes be like a procession (mainly the 450 class, the 250 class has been pretty fun to watch this year), where as it used to be that when a rider did give all or nothing they could make up lost time and places (or ofcourse crash and burn).
It just seems that the 2-strokes rewarded rider talent and skill more than the 4-strokes as it always seemed like they had something more to give.
1.Do you think Bubba would have beat RC if he had a 4 stroke in 2005 MX?
2.Do you think if Milk Alessi was on a Factory KTM250 sx will still be in 4th place in the outdoor series or worst?
3.Do you think if star racing rode tricked out yz125s, would any of those riders would be in a worst place then they are now? Martin Davalos 9th, Broc Tickle 8th and Max etc…..????
4. Do you think josh grant would be in 6th if he rode a JGR YZ250?
The point I am trying to make is I think it’s the rider more than the bike. IF a top 15 pro chose to ride a 2stroke they would get the same results that they are getting riding the 4 stroke. Of course with the rite bike set up and some 2 stroke seat time. I think if you put these guys on 2strokes that I mention above they would get the same results that they are getting now! Tell me if I am wrong.
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