How far back in time would a current Novice on a 08 450

So, these guys are trying to tell me that a novice on a 450, on any track, is going to beat DeCoster or Lackey, or Moates, ...


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That's some funny shit right there.

I dont think they would beat them on any track from any era. Prime example. I run up front in +30 and +40B locally and win some. I raced +35 last summer, which is an open class, and got absolutely smoked by a local A guy who was riding an old twin shock, down pipe Bultaco. He went by me on the 2nd lap like I was standing still and I ended up finishing 8th in that moto. He got 2nd and the gate was mostly full of A riders. Now he was only a local A rider. Imagine what someone who was fast enough to win a championship would do.

[quote="jtomasik":3sssuaeb]So, these guys are trying to tell me that a novice on a 450, on any track, is going to beat DeCoster or Lackey, or Moates, ...[/quote:3sssuaeb]
You guys shoulda seen Marty Smith race against local Pro Jimbo Morton at the Rio Bravo ProAm a few years ago. Marty (on a Maico) was on fire, holeshotted and was gone ! If our local Pro has hell keeping up with Marty at 50+, imagine Marty in his prime! (and Jimbo Morton is very very fast)

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well, good question. the answer can only be speculated but since i've seen joel robert on a rn suzy and some modern day local squids at the local track i must comment.

on a real motocross track i would say a real 450 novice rider could not beat joel robert circa 1970.

You saying 1977 is just bait and we all know that. bikes back then were fairly well "traveled" at 10-12 inches of oingo boingo but still pumped out some good horsepower and since guys like magoo were pretty much wide open i am sure get my drift on speed vs speed in different eras.

I say 1970, and with that i would bet 100 dollars that dave coupe at speedworld on an elsi 1974 250 or 125 could still beat yer ass along with the other good riders on this board today no matter what you were riding.

Heck, now that I re-formatted the question trying to imagine a novice today beating someone like DeCoster, I'll retract my earlier statement. I think you'll need a 60's bike to gain enough of a mechanical advantage...and even then, it'd have to be under the right conditions.

That's what I love about our sport...the equipment is only a small portion of the win. Well, except for those cool graphics.

It totally depends on two big variables, how good is the Novice (thats a broad category), and what style of track. I would guess around 1975.

Novice gets smoked.

I would say really early 70's. Before long travel suspension emerged 'in '73 which really changed the game. So a 70's pro on a brand new bike (of 76 to say 79 vintage ) of that era against a current novice on a natural terrain track, the pro would blow the novice away, especially if it was over 30 minutes - Id say almost lap em.

I saw guys like Rahier, Decoster and Mikkola in about '75 and those guys hauled when they turned it up.

A mid to late '70's Pro would smoke a Novice from today.

I know I wouldn't want Tom Benolkin or Billy Grossi hunting me down for 40 minutes!!

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I remember Barnett at bithlo on a 73 or 74 cr250.............couldnt tell much difference in speed on that bike........he still hauled ass.

45 minutes plus 2 laps on a ungroomed track for two motos. Blinding dust and football sized rocks. There are very few current pros on current equipment that could match the lap times of the riders from the early 70's. That is why they pussied it down to 30 minutes and groom the track after practice and every moto. Hell, they even groom the track at sx and ax between motos and they are under 20 minutes.
Even the great RC hated Unadilla in his prime and he only had to ride 2/3rds the length of the motos. Go ahead and hate it if you want but mx can be run on ungroomed, unwatered tracks. Shit we did it for the first 20 years with shit bikes and the racing was just as good if not better. Most of us practice on ungroomed, unwatered tracks and don't seem to have a problem with the enjoyment level. Stop being a pussy and appreciate a blue hardpack, rock laden, washboard track. Watch Carlsbad from 75-85 and you will see what mx once was.

good points dad. very good point on the 30 min vs 40 deal. it's almost sickening what they have done to this once revered sport of kings.

Offroad guys dont whine about dust, rocks, mud, peg dragging ruts, slimy roots, hardpack, endless silty sandwhoops so dusty you cant see your handlebars. Comes with the territory.

A Novice couldn't even beat Magoo when he was riding his CZ 250 as an Intermediate in '73-'74.

[quote="mxdad":36kg4gwk]45 minutes plus 2 laps on a ungroomed track for two motos. Blinding dust and football sized rocks. There are very few current pros on current equipment that could match the lap times of the riders from the early 70's. That is why they pussied it down to 30 minutes and groom the track after practice and every moto. Hell, they even groom the track at sx and ax between motos and they are under 20 minutes.
Even the great RC hated Unadilla in his prime and he only had to ride 2/3rds the length of the motos. Go ahead and hate it if you want but mx can be run on ungroomed, unwatered tracks. Shit we did it for the first 20 years with shit bikes and the racing was just as good if not better. Most of us practice on ungroomed, unwatered tracks and don't seem to have a problem with the enjoyment level. Stop being a pussy and appreciate a blue hardpack, rock laden, washboard track. Watch Carlsbad from 75-85 and you will see what mx once was.[/quote:36kg4gwk]


They tuned it down to 30 for T.V not because they were pussies. They also NEED to groom AX and SX tracks for safety. With that being said the pro's of pretty much any time would beat a C rider regardless of track or equipment.

[quote="Farva":posvpsy8]They also NEED to groom AX and SX tracks for safety.[/quote:posvpsy8]
I dont buy that one.

[quote="Racer92":k3rfvsmh][quote="Farva":k3rfvsmh]They also NEED to groom AX and SX tracks for safety.[/quote:k3rfvsmh]
I dont buy that one.[/quote:k3rfvsmh]


Why do they waste money on equipment if it is not needed?

[quote="Farva":8pgdp6bs][quote="Racer92":8pgdp6bs][quote="Farva":8pgdp6bs]They also NEED to groom AX and SX tracks for safety.[/quote:8pgdp6bs]
I dont buy that one.[/quote:8pgdp6bs]


Why do they waste money on equipment if it is not needed?[/quote:8pgdp6bs]


Because many of the guys won't even go out on a non-groomed track if it's up to riding a groomer vs. a non-groomer. I've been out at Thunder Valley and some guys won't even take their bikes off the trucks until the mud is gone.

Personally, I prefer it when it's mud and axle deep ruts...scares the living hell outta me.

are you guys kidding with this fitness thing? since when did the 70's guys have personal trainers, perfect diets, flew to the races, nice cold or hot showers between motos, tapes to view... (energy drinks, had to throw this in , lol)

list goes on.

[quote="Farva":2q5t6all]Why do they waste money on equipment if it is not needed?[/quote:2q5t6all]
They do it because the racers (and probably the promoter) want it. But they could race on anything if they had to - hell look at Daytona 2008 and those conditions - they still got it done.

[quote="williamsmotowerx":1dvgl052]are you guys kidding with this fitness thing? since when did the 70's guys have personal trainers, perfect diets, flew to the races, nice cold or hot showers between motos, tapes to view... (energy drinks, had to throw this in , lol)

list goes on.[/quote:1dvgl052]
I remember reading an interview with Hannah saying he rode to each National with the heater on the whole way so he would handle heat better and never got into any air conditioning. Him and McCarty most likely did the red-eye to most Nationals in the box van together.

They tuned it down to 30 because it was boring as hell watching the extra 15 minutes of a walkaway win.

I say, go back to 3 30's.

The sport's always been changing.

[quote="Farva":3mnzgbvq]They also NEED to groom AX and SX tracks for safety[/quote:3mnzgbvq]
I don't buy that for a second, rougher = slower/safer

Dilla used to be so friggen gnarly, now it's a rocky freeway by comparison, with huge jumps and lots of air, definitely not safer.

[quote="Adam43":285ybmao]It totally depends on two big variables, how good is the Novice (thats a broad category), and what style of track. I would guess around 1975.[/quote:285ybmao]

Bingo. The track design would be key.

And a few other factors. Make the moto 20-25 minutes ( I think that's about as much as an LL Novice would get? ).

Plus the comparison to Marty Smith wouldn't work either. Marty has learned modern riding and jumping techniques so he doesn't qualify as someone from that era. Make the track technical enough and it's just a matter of time before you reach a year where the technique and equipment become too large a factor for the pro to overcome ... against your average cherry-picking, groomed-by-the-factories-from-the-age-of-four LL "Novice".

Things like air braking, scrubbing, skimming whoops, doubling/tripling, etc. simply hadn't been learned yet. Shit, they were even making a big deal out of clutching out of corners a gear up back then. I just don't know that early time well enough to pick a year but early seventies sounds reasonable.

[quote="race":26veh9h8]Bingo. The track design would be key.

And a few other factors. Make the moto 20-25 minutes ( I think that's about as much as an LL Novice would get? ).

Plus the comparison to Marty Smith wouldn't work either. Marty has learned modern riding and jumping techniques so he doesn't qualify as someone from that era. Make the track technical enough and it's just a matter of time before you reach a year where the technique and equipment become too large a factor for the pro to overcome ... against your average cherry-picking, groomed-by-the-factories-from-the-age-of-four LL "Novice".

Things like air braking, scrubbing, skimming whoops, doubling/tripling, etc. simply hadn't been learned yet. Shit, they were even making a big deal out of clutching out of corners a gear up back then. I just don't know that early time well enough to pick a year but early seventies sounds reasonable.[/quote:26veh9h8]

I hope Benolkin never catches up with you. That guy was whipping A-class asses on a 74 Elsie a few years back on your 'modern' tracks.

[quote="williamsmotowerx":2s27gfvl]are you guys kidding with this fitness thing? since when did the 70's guys have personal trainers, perfect diets, flew to the races, nice cold or hot showers between motos, tapes to view... (energy drinks, had to throw this in , lol)

list goes on.[/quote:2s27gfvl]

The current pros are pampered like Paris Hilton. They won't ride a 70's/80's track. They might break a nail or something. They want the ruts groomed out in between motos. They want the braking/acc bumps taken out in between motos. They want the rocks taken out of the dirt. With all the trainers, nutritionalists, chiro, bike advancement, etc.... these guys should be doing 2 hour motos.
Someone needs to do a fitness test on the top riders like J-Law. This sport is no where near as physically demanding as the 70-80's . No wonder the top woman bowlers make more money than most top motocrossers.

[quote="whipmeister":3n304cub][quote="race":3n304cub]Bingo. The track design would be key.

And a few other factors. Make the moto 20-25 minutes ( I think that's about as much as an LL Novice would get? ).

Plus the comparison to Marty Smith wouldn't work either. Marty has learned modern riding and jumping techniques so he doesn't qualify as someone from that era. Make the track technical enough and it's just a matter of time before you reach a year where the technique and equipment become too large a factor for the pro to overcome ... against your average cherry-picking, groomed-by-the-factories-from-the-age-of-four LL "Novice".

Things like air braking, scrubbing, skimming whoops, doubling/tripling, etc. simply hadn't been learned yet. Shit, they were even making a big deal out of clutching out of corners a gear up back then. I just don't know that early time well enough to pick a year but early seventies sounds reasonable.[/quote:3n304cub]

I hope Benolkin never catches up with you. That guy was whipping A-class asses on a 74 Elsie a few years back on your 'modern' tracks.[/quote:3n304cub]

As I posted ... If he was still riding a few years ago, he wouldn't qualify as a 70s rider anymore than Marty Smith would. Stick to the time machine format, as advances in riding technique and the advantages they would yield on a modern track are a big part of the equation.

[/quote]

As I posted ... If he was still riding a few years ago, he wouldn't qualify as a 70s rider anymore than Marty Smith would. Stick to the time machine format, as advances in riding technique and the advantages they would yield on a modern track are a big part of the equation.[/quote]

The advantages of modern equipment, riding technique and the fact that they were riding on a modern track would be negated after the 8 minute mark. Most novices (non-LL caliber) have a hard enough time holding on at the end of a 5 lap race around these parts.

[quote="mxdad":fiezl9fs][quote="williamsmotowerx":fiezl9fs]are you guys kidding with this fitness thing? since when did the 70's guys have personal trainers, perfect diets, flew to the races, nice cold or hot showers between motos, tapes to view... (energy drinks, had to throw this in , lol)

list goes on.[/quote:fiezl9fs]

The current pros are pampered like Paris Hilton. They won't ride a 70's/80's track. They might break a nail or something. They want the ruts groomed out in between motos. They want the braking/acc bumps taken out in between motos. They want the rocks taken out of the dirt. With all the trainers, nutritionalists, chiro, bike advancement, etc.... these guys should be doing 2 hour motos.
Someone needs to do a fitness test on the top riders like J-Law. This sport is no where near as physically demanding as the 70-80's . No wonder the top woman bowlers make more money than most top motocrossers.[/quote:fiezl9fs]


Do you have anything nice to say about anyone? I bet the riders riding today are more hardcore than you ever were or will be.