The Ukraine is in a tight spot

2/20/2025 10:15pm
dkurtd wrote:
I would agree that the U.S. wouldn't concede shit, one of the big differences is in the U.S. we have the selective service and if needed...

I would agree that the U.S. wouldn't concede shit, one of the big differences is in the U.S. we have the selective service and if needed we would institute the draft.  That draft would take every eligible male starting at age 18.  We would have them trained up and ready for combat (not including any advanced training) in less than 13 weeks (Marine boot camp being the longest).  Currently almost half of all U.S. active-duty servicemen and woman are in the age group 18-25.

Now let's look at Ukraine. They have conscription, the current age for it starts at 25.  That age used to be higher before the war.  But, what about those 1.5 million 18 to 24 year-old males that are currently exempt?  I'm sure someone will chime in and say they need to preserve some young men for the future of Ukraine, my response to that is not if there's no Ukraine left.  And I won't bring up the 1.5 million females in that same age bracket. I do realize some of those in that age bracket have voluntarily enlisted but not many.  And Ukraine's field commanders complain about conscripts being unprepared for battle, what do you expect when they are only given 4 weeks of training.  They've had 3 years to figure out a training pipeline to better prepare them and they haven't done it.

Did you know according to World Bank data Ukraine had 20.8 million males in 2020, that number dropped to 17.5 million in 2023.  Where did that 3.3 million go?  I almost positive they all didn't die in the war or from old age, so who are they and where did they go?  I also understand that Ukraine stopped renewing passports for conscription age males to prevent them from leaving but that doesn't mean much when they just show up at some other countries border and claim asylum and that country accepts them because of the war.

I didn't really look into any of the above until I saw my grandson watching a YouTube channel of a group of kids called the Vania Mania Kids.  I did a little research on them because of their accent.  Turns out they are a family of seven who are from Ukraine that started a popular kid's channel in 2015 and when the war started packed up and went to the UAE and eventually made their way to Florida.  They are now multi-millionaires with a father that fits well into the conscription age and he's too busy living the life in Miami.

So, I have my reservations about Ukrainians as a whole trying to win a war.

scott_nz wrote:

do you think any western country would have mass approval to a draft in todays age?

i dont, 

Magoofan wrote:
I'll throw this in there regarding the US.     We've seen 18-25 year olds entitlement mentality, lack of patriotism for their country, horrendous work ethic....the...

I'll throw this in there regarding the US.     We've seen 18-25 year olds entitlement mentality, lack of patriotism for their country, horrendous work ethic....the list goes on and on.

These kids aren't going to fight.

 

The youth of today are mostly soft. I was drafted for 3 yrs straight out of school. My generation ( dob 1970) was pretty hard and we fit right in.

It will be a tall order training up today's generation.

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dkurtd
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2/20/2025 10:28pm
dkurtd wrote:
I would agree that the U.S. wouldn't concede shit, one of the big differences is in the U.S. we have the selective service and if needed...

I would agree that the U.S. wouldn't concede shit, one of the big differences is in the U.S. we have the selective service and if needed we would institute the draft.  That draft would take every eligible male starting at age 18.  We would have them trained up and ready for combat (not including any advanced training) in less than 13 weeks (Marine boot camp being the longest).  Currently almost half of all U.S. active-duty servicemen and woman are in the age group 18-25.

Now let's look at Ukraine. They have conscription, the current age for it starts at 25.  That age used to be higher before the war.  But, what about those 1.5 million 18 to 24 year-old males that are currently exempt?  I'm sure someone will chime in and say they need to preserve some young men for the future of Ukraine, my response to that is not if there's no Ukraine left.  And I won't bring up the 1.5 million females in that same age bracket. I do realize some of those in that age bracket have voluntarily enlisted but not many.  And Ukraine's field commanders complain about conscripts being unprepared for battle, what do you expect when they are only given 4 weeks of training.  They've had 3 years to figure out a training pipeline to better prepare them and they haven't done it.

Did you know according to World Bank data Ukraine had 20.8 million males in 2020, that number dropped to 17.5 million in 2023.  Where did that 3.3 million go?  I almost positive they all didn't die in the war or from old age, so who are they and where did they go?  I also understand that Ukraine stopped renewing passports for conscription age males to prevent them from leaving but that doesn't mean much when they just show up at some other countries border and claim asylum and that country accepts them because of the war.

I didn't really look into any of the above until I saw my grandson watching a YouTube channel of a group of kids called the Vania Mania Kids.  I did a little research on them because of their accent.  Turns out they are a family of seven who are from Ukraine that started a popular kid's channel in 2015 and when the war started packed up and went to the UAE and eventually made their way to Florida.  They are now multi-millionaires with a father that fits well into the conscription age and he's too busy living the life in Miami.

So, I have my reservations about Ukrainians as a whole trying to win a war.

scott_nz wrote:

do you think any western country would have mass approval to a draft in todays age?

i dont, 

Magoofan wrote:
I'll throw this in there regarding the US.     We've seen 18-25 year olds entitlement mentality, lack of patriotism for their country, horrendous work ethic....the...

I'll throw this in there regarding the US.     We've seen 18-25 year olds entitlement mentality, lack of patriotism for their country, horrendous work ethic....the list goes on and on.

These kids aren't going to fight.

 

Most days I wonder the same thing regarding today's young people.  I will say we have a head start on Ukraine for the 18-25 year demographic, with currently half a million on active duty.  It would be interesting to see how a WW2 type scenario would play out with our current youth, I have no doubt if it were a Vietnam type scenario the youth of today would be protesting just like they did in the 60's. 

I guess they could always go live in Canada and hide for the rest of their life's kind of like some did during Vietnam, but at least they would have free health care.

2/20/2025 11:08pm
scott_nz wrote:

do you think any western country would have mass approval to a draft in todays age?

i dont, 

I think it entirely depends on the war.

An imperialist war of aggression like Iraq vs genuine self defence would have very different responses.

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jambalaya
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2/21/2025 7:06am

Some of you should just take a look at the start of this thread and how it’s ending. People are delusional. 

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byke
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2/21/2025 12:03pm
byke wrote:
Kind of. He wants to restore as much of the USSR as he can, but a few of those old USSR countries joined NATO in 2004...

Kind of. He wants to restore as much of the USSR as he can, but a few of those old USSR countries joined NATO in 2004 and some of them are NATO-light aligned. In the sense some of those old USSR countries have now joined Europe, yes, I think he wants that. He knows this is a century+ long game though, because he could never do it all at once or else nukes fly. Gotta chip away here and there. He's also done the same with Georgia and is inbetween advnancements now. Once Ukraine settles, he'll sit tight for a bit, then inch forward somewhere else. His plan is a multi-generational plan to restore Russia to its former glory. 

FastEddy wrote:
I always believed that was always their plan if nato ever tried to move in on that region.    This is a good read on the...

I always believed that was always their plan if nato ever tried to move in on that region.    This is a good read on the topic.

I totally agree with the points brought up in the article which are clearly a provocation. And before the invasion, my opinion was that Ukraine should have given themselves only two options, put everything they had into diplomacy, and if that ultimately failed, then give up the bid. I understand they want in the EU to advance their interests, but I have a hard time thinking they couldn't have done that with more effort into monetizing their unique position as a broker between the east and the west. The part where I won't budge is when it comes to weighing those unwise decisions against violating a nation's sovereignty and mass destroying civilian regions and murdering people. Like if a skinhead calls a black guy the n-word and the black guy kicks his ass, I'm going to advise the skinhead that it would be wise to stop saying those things, but ultimately I'm just never going to side with the person that's committed the assault/crime. That's the bottom line for me and I think it's the position which most accurately aligns with classic American ideologies. 

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2/21/2025 2:02pm Edited Date/Time 2/21/2025 2:04pm

Sounds a bit like Vietnam again. Lets get bogged down for a decade and make a right tight mess of it all….where the host country loses bigtime.

Or everyone concede something and we get peace


Edit- bonus…the money laundering stops. 

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2/21/2025 4:10pm
early wrote:

When Rupert Murdoch calls out your president for being a bootlicker

Trumptards love Russia.  They want Trump and his team to turn America into Russia.  It's already headed that way.  Trump and Musk are buying up the media companies, Trump with his platform, and Musk with his.  Brainwashing their sheep-like followers through their smart phones.    I see stuff posted on this forum that is straight off of Truth Social and X, it's copied and pasted by the lemmings like Team Green, Joey Bridges, etc that just regurgitate the talking points off those right wing propaganda apps.   Much of it is word for word copy and paste right from stuff that Musk tweets out at 3am.   We're all screwed.

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2/21/2025 4:15pm

Trump playbook...

- Make crazy promises you know you can't come through on, but you know your base will lap it up and believe every word you say

- Once you figure out  you can't come through on said promises, start blaming others for it

He's done this with his "ending the war in 1 day", that's now Ukraine's fault because they started the war and they're run by a dictator.   

He hasn't done anything about inflation, even though he said it would be a simple fix.  That's now Bidens fault.

If the stock market tanks, he'll blame that on Hillary Clinton.

 

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Spoonguy
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2/21/2025 5:33pm
LungButter wrote:
I think we're just choosing the side of let's end this thing and you can't have BILLIONS more of our dollars to do it.Ukraine lost ground...

I think we're just choosing the side of let's end this thing and you can't have BILLIONS more of our dollars to do it.

Ukraine lost ground in this war, that's the way it works in war sometimes.  

The world doesn't want to keep endlessly funding this war so they can get that land back it what it seems like.

 

Lasse wrote:

“End the war”. Do you really think that Russia will honor any agreement? 

Then you go back to war. Why not at least try peace?

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2/21/2025 5:41pm
IMG 2453 1

Musk tweeted this on X.   Do you have anything original, or is it all off of the propaganda app?

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Chance1216
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2/21/2025 5:48pm
Trumptards love Russia.  They want Trump and his team to turn America into Russia.  It's already headed that way.  Trump and Musk are buying up the...

Trumptards love Russia.  They want Trump and his team to turn America into Russia.  It's already headed that way.  Trump and Musk are buying up the media companies, Trump with his platform, and Musk with his.  Brainwashing their sheep-like followers through their smart phones.    I see stuff posted on this forum that is straight off of Truth Social and X, it's copied and pasted by the lemmings like Team Green, Joey Bridges, etc that just regurgitate the talking points off those right wing propaganda apps.   Much of it is word for word copy and paste right from stuff that Musk tweets out at 3am.   We're all screwed.

So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re critiquing. 
 

Funny how that works. 

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2/21/2025 6:14pm Edited Date/Time 2/21/2025 6:16pm
Chance1216 wrote:
So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re...

So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re critiquing. 
 

Funny how that works. 

Yes I do occasionally check to see what's being posted on there, key difference is I'm not dumb enough to believe anything they post on those platforms.  It's propaganda.  Musk controls the algorithm on X, Trump on Truth Social.  They know what they're doing.  Might as well be in Russia sitting on your couch watching State run TV.   That's what they want.  Think about it.

If you follow someone that has 270 million followers and tweets 50 times a day, you are the DEFINITION of sheep.

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Chance1216
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2/21/2025 6:37pm Edited Date/Time 2/21/2025 6:38pm
Chance1216 wrote:
So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re...

So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re critiquing. 
 

Funny how that works. 

Yes I do occasionally check to see what's being posted on there, key difference is I'm not dumb enough to believe anything they post on those...

Yes I do occasionally check to see what's being posted on there, key difference is I'm not dumb enough to believe anything they post on those platforms.  It's propaganda.  Musk controls the algorithm on X, Trump on Truth Social.  They know what they're doing.  Might as well be in Russia sitting on your couch watching State run TV.   That's what they want.  Think about it.

If you follow someone that has 270 million followers and tweets 50 times a day, you are the DEFINITION of sheep.

With those two being the main social media platforms for many, where is it exactly you’re getting your non biased news sources from? 

1
early
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2/21/2025 7:26pm
Trumptards love Russia.  They want Trump and his team to turn America into Russia.  It's already headed that way.  Trump and Musk are buying up the...

Trumptards love Russia.  They want Trump and his team to turn America into Russia.  It's already headed that way.  Trump and Musk are buying up the media companies, Trump with his platform, and Musk with his.  Brainwashing their sheep-like followers through their smart phones.    I see stuff posted on this forum that is straight off of Truth Social and X, it's copied and pasted by the lemmings like Team Green, Joey Bridges, etc that just regurgitate the talking points off those right wing propaganda apps.   Much of it is word for word copy and paste right from stuff that Musk tweets out at 3am.   We're all screwed.

Chance1216 wrote:
So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re...

So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re critiquing. 
 

Funny how that works. 

Isn't it better to see directly what prominent leaders post themselves than to wait for the mainstream media to comment on it? Today we have the power to see deep into the thoughts of anyone who cares to share them, it's better to form an opinion on that source material than second hand commentary.

The discourse on X is terrible it's mostly bots, scammers, and people calling each other retard, but it's still a better primary source of prominent figures than any one other social media site, that's why Musk, the Saudis and other shady assholes bought it. 

Your doge meme is in the wrong thread.

2
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Chance1216
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2/21/2025 8:00pm
Trumptards love Russia.  They want Trump and his team to turn America into Russia.  It's already headed that way.  Trump and Musk are buying up the...

Trumptards love Russia.  They want Trump and his team to turn America into Russia.  It's already headed that way.  Trump and Musk are buying up the media companies, Trump with his platform, and Musk with his.  Brainwashing their sheep-like followers through their smart phones.    I see stuff posted on this forum that is straight off of Truth Social and X, it's copied and pasted by the lemmings like Team Green, Joey Bridges, etc that just regurgitate the talking points off those right wing propaganda apps.   Much of it is word for word copy and paste right from stuff that Musk tweets out at 3am.   We're all screwed.

Chance1216 wrote:
So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re...

So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re critiquing. 
 

Funny how that works. 

early wrote:
Isn't it better to see directly what prominent leaders post themselves than to wait for the mainstream media to comment on it? Today we have the...

Isn't it better to see directly what prominent leaders post themselves than to wait for the mainstream media to comment on it? Today we have the power to see deep into the thoughts of anyone who cares to share them, it's better to form an opinion on that source material than second hand commentary.

The discourse on X is terrible it's mostly bots, scammers, and people calling each other retard, but it's still a better primary source of prominent figures than any one other social media site, that's why Musk, the Saudis and other shady assholes bought it. 

Your doge meme is in the wrong thread.

Though I agree,  I think your first paragraph is aimed at the wrong person. 
 

The first sentence of your second paragraph could be used to describe Vital more often than, not. 

I’m not on X, Truth Social or, even Instagram. 

In regards to my meme, would you have preferred Beach Volleyball models? 
 

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inflammable
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2/21/2025 8:43pm
Chance1216 wrote:
So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re...

So, with knowledge of things being copied and, pasted straight off X, you admit you’re casually scrolling through the very same platforms as the people you’re critiquing. 
 

Funny how that works. 

early wrote:
Isn't it better to see directly what prominent leaders post themselves than to wait for the mainstream media to comment on it? Today we have the...

Isn't it better to see directly what prominent leaders post themselves than to wait for the mainstream media to comment on it? Today we have the power to see deep into the thoughts of anyone who cares to share them, it's better to form an opinion on that source material than second hand commentary.

The discourse on X is terrible it's mostly bots, scammers, and people calling each other retard, but it's still a better primary source of prominent figures than any one other social media site, that's why Musk, the Saudis and other shady assholes bought it. 

Your doge meme is in the wrong thread.

Chance1216 wrote:
Though I agree,  I think your first paragraph is aimed at the wrong person.  The first sentence of your second paragraph could be used to describe Vital...

Though I agree,  I think your first paragraph is aimed at the wrong person. 
 

The first sentence of your second paragraph could be used to describe Vital more often than, not. 

I’m not on X, Truth Social or, even Instagram. 

In regards to my meme, would you have preferred Beach Volleyball models? 
 

Screenshot 20250221-223718-227 1giphy %283%29 2.gif?VersionId=64VOc06MBBs
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2/21/2025 9:03pm

seems Ukraine will either need to acccept whatever deal is put to them,  or see if Europe will step up and help them continue fighting,  

if Nato is dead in the water, it will be interesting times for europe,

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Philo Beddoe
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2/21/2025 10:54pm
Chance1216 wrote:
Though I agree,  I think your first paragraph is aimed at the wrong person.  The first sentence of your second paragraph could be used to describe Vital...

Though I agree,  I think your first paragraph is aimed at the wrong person. 
 

The first sentence of your second paragraph could be used to describe Vital more often than, not. 

I’m not on X, Truth Social or, even Instagram. 

In regards to my meme, would you have preferred Beach Volleyball models? 
 

Wrong pronoun for that one, Chance. He’s more of a grinder guy😉🍆

1
2/22/2025 3:39am

This whole thread has aged so amazingly well. 

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2/22/2025 4:48am
Trump playbook...- Make crazy promises you know you can't come through on, but you know your base will lap it up and believe every word you...

Trump playbook...

- Make crazy promises you know you can't come through on, but you know your base will lap it up and believe every word you say

- Once you figure out  you can't come through on said promises, start blaming others for it

He's done this with his "ending the war in 1 day", that's now Ukraine's fault because they started the war and they're run by a dictator.   

He hasn't done anything about inflation, even though he said it would be a simple fix.  That's now Bidens fault.

If the stock market tanks, he'll blame that on Hillary Clinton.

 

I agree with you, but you’re just as deluded as the Trumpets if you can’t acknowledge ALL politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle use that very same playbook. 

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early
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2/22/2025 5:36pm

Trump, Putin, Xi

Oceania, Eurasia, Eastasia

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inflammable
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2/22/2025 7:24pm
early wrote:

Trump, Putin, Xi

Oceania, Eurasia, Eastasia

Oh, you've read a book. Apparently you didn't understand it though. 

1
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early
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2/22/2025 7:56pm
early wrote:

Trump, Putin, Xi

Oceania, Eurasia, Eastasia

Oh, you've read a book. Apparently you didn't understand it though. 

What do you think all this "sphere of influence", Canada 51st state, taking over Greenland, dissolving NATO talk is all about?

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inflammable
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2/22/2025 8:00pm
early wrote:

Trump, Putin, Xi

Oceania, Eurasia, Eastasia

Oh, you've read a book. Apparently you didn't understand it though. 

early wrote:

What do you think all this "sphere of influence", Canada 51st state, taking over Greenland, dissolving NATO talk is all about?

If you think it is in any way related to or prophecied by "1984" then you need to read it a LOT slower next time. 

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early
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2/22/2025 8:04pm

Oh, you've read a book. Apparently you didn't understand it though. 

early wrote:

What do you think all this "sphere of influence", Canada 51st state, taking over Greenland, dissolving NATO talk is all about?

If you think it is in any way related to or prophecied by "1984" then you need to read it a LOT slower next time. 

You think if the US aligned our foreign policy with Russia and China who are basically already aligned we could rule the world?

The only thing missing is discipline.

4
inflammable
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2/22/2025 8:10pm
early wrote:

What do you think all this "sphere of influence", Canada 51st state, taking over Greenland, dissolving NATO talk is all about?

If you think it is in any way related to or prophecied by "1984" then you need to read it a LOT slower next time. 

early wrote:
You think if the US aligned our foreign policy with Russia and China who are basically already aligned we could rule the world?The only thing missing...

You think if the US aligned our foreign policy with Russia and China who are basically already aligned we could rule the world?

The only thing missing is discipline.

Russia and China - aligned? 

Really, you believe that?

By the way, we already had the Cold War, and the US and Russia basically did run the world. 

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early
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2/22/2025 8:25pm

If you think it is in any way related to or prophecied by "1984" then you need to read it a LOT slower next time. 

early wrote:
You think if the US aligned our foreign policy with Russia and China who are basically already aligned we could rule the world?The only thing missing...

You think if the US aligned our foreign policy with Russia and China who are basically already aligned we could rule the world?

The only thing missing is discipline.

Russia and China - aligned? 

Really, you believe that?

By the way, we already had the Cold War, and the US and Russia basically did run the world. 

But if we joined forces think of the power.

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