KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

SoCalMX70
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1/24/2025 10:24am
Flatliner wrote:

Anyone surprised Pierer is out?  I'm amazed it didn't happen sooner.

Dsigner wrote:
Is he really out though?  This company continues to try ad BS their way around reality."Press release: Mattighofen, January 23, 2025 – Stefan Pierer, CEO...

Is he really out though?  This company continues to try ad BS their way around reality.

"Press release: Mattighofen, January 23, 2025 – Stefan Pierer, CEO of KTM AG for many years, is handing over the management of the company to his Co-CEO Gottfried Neumeister. With this step, one of the world’s leading motorcycle manufacturers is strategically positioning itself for the future. Pierer will continue to accompany the reorganization process as a member of the Executive Board with full commitment and will remain part of the KTM family."

As would any company... You HAVE TO project confidence. This shouldn't be surprising.

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Beagle
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1/24/2025 10:43am
17377441502272855876842074494232

"Saving KTM as a going concern is vital to the economy of the region, also because if KTM AG, the company responsible for manufacturing KTM, Husqvarna and GASGAS motorcycles goes under, then all of the related businesses go under as well.

For that reason, KTM's creditors have an interest in the survival of the company. If the insolvency proceedings fail, they are likely to receive much less than the 30% of outstanding debts owed to them."

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MxAddic
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1/24/2025 10:51am
scott_nz wrote:
Beagle wrote:
"Saving KTM as a going concern is vital to the economy of the region, also because if KTM AG, the company responsible for manufacturing KTM, Husqvarna...
17377441502272855876842074494232

"Saving KTM as a going concern is vital to the economy of the region, also because if KTM AG, the company responsible for manufacturing KTM, Husqvarna and GASGAS motorcycles goes under, then all of the related businesses go under as well.

For that reason, KTM's creditors have an interest in the survival of the company. If the insolvency proceedings fail, they are likely to receive much less than the 30% of outstanding debts owed to them."

Without the debt it's a 2 Bil company. How could they only get 30% if the debt is 2.whatever?

5

The Shop

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1/24/2025 12:38pm
scott_nz wrote:
Beagle wrote:
"Saving KTM as a going concern is vital to the economy of the region, also because if KTM AG, the company responsible for manufacturing KTM, Husqvarna...
17377441502272855876842074494232

"Saving KTM as a going concern is vital to the economy of the region, also because if KTM AG, the company responsible for manufacturing KTM, Husqvarna and GASGAS motorcycles goes under, then all of the related businesses go under as well.

For that reason, KTM's creditors have an interest in the survival of the company. If the insolvency proceedings fail, they are likely to receive much less than the 30% of outstanding debts owed to them."

MxAddic wrote:

Without the debt it's a 2 Bil company. How could they only get 30% if the debt is 2.whatever?

Restructuring is repaying 30% over 2 years while keeping the company active so the point is not to pay those 30% by selling all their assets.

Maybe you meant the 14% in case of liquidation? I guess people tend to not pay full price when they buy after liquidation. Plus some assets would be very hard to sell. Who's gonna buy an inventory of 190 000 bikes? Are there many buyers for a factory in Mattighofen with production capacity of 220 000 bikes/year? Who needs to make over 600 bikes a day? What price would they be ready to pay? Any takers for the 40 000 m2 component factory where they make frames, suspensions and exhausts? Who's in for the 16 000 m2 R&D department? Anyone desperately looking for 25 engine test bench rooms? And the list goes on.

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1/24/2025 12:43pm
Flatliner wrote:

Anyone surprised Pierer is out?  I'm amazed it didn't happen sooner.

He’s not out. Pure optics move. He personally appointed his “co-CEO” and dissolved the board. He is as in charge as ever, until the insolvency court says otherwise.

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Team403
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1/24/2025 12:49pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2025 2:44pm

The interesting thing to me is we keep focusing on over production but isn’t the root of the problem $10-12k dirtbikes with a 50% residual value after a year or two?   Personally I think we have crossed a barrier for most consumers plus high interest rates.

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JazzyJJ
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1/24/2025 2:16pm
Team403 wrote:
The interesting thing to me is we keep focusing on over production but isn’t the root of the problem $10-12k dirtbikes with a 50% residual value...

The interesting thing to me is we keep focusing on over production but isn’t the root of the problem $10-12k dirtbikes with a 50% residual value after a year or two?   Personally I think we have crossed a barrier for most consumers plus high interest rates.

The root of the problem is the PMG group taking on a shit ton of debt.

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Beagle
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1/24/2025 2:20pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2025 2:22pm
Team403 wrote:
The interesting thing to me is we keep focusing on over production but isn’t the root of the problem $10-12k dirtbikes with a 50% residual value...

The interesting thing to me is we keep focusing on over production but isn’t the root of the problem $10-12k dirtbikes with a 50% residual value after a year or two?   Personally I think we have crossed a barrier for most consumers plus high interest rates.

The price of dirt bikes may understandably be your main concern but that's definitely not the root of the problem here. 

Sales are still strong, 292 497 bikes last year, stable from 2023. But their inventory has been overflowing with about 200 000 bikes for the past couple of years (maybe 190 000 right now). These bikes costs a lot to make and just sit there. In the meantime their debt tripled or quadrupled in a year and 80% of that debt is with financial creditors (which I read as banks but I'm a simple man, there's probably more to it). That's not because of tanking sales, that's because of overproduction and Pierer's insatiable thirst for acquisitions.

North America is about 20% of PMG global sales, high end dirt bikes may be a significant share of NA sales but in the end PMG sells more street bikes than dirt bikes.

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Hammer 663s
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1/24/2025 2:38pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2025 2:38pm
Team403 wrote:
The interesting thing to me is we keep focusing on over production but isn’t the root of the problem $10-12k dirtbikes with a 50% residual value...

The interesting thing to me is we keep focusing on over production but isn’t the root of the problem $10-12k dirtbikes with a 50% residual value after a year or two?   Personally I think we have crossed a barrier for most consumers plus high interest rates.

JazzyJJ wrote:

The root of the problem is the PMG group taking on a shit ton of debt.

The stupid thing is that 610 million euros of the debt is INTERNAL debt between KTM and subsidiaries. In essence, they were self-funding via internal IOUs to grow and expand. A corporate Ponzi scheme and now the house of cards has collapsed. Pierer was like an Amazon junkie who keeps ordering shit on new credit cards cause all his other cards are maxed out. Debt can be a useful tool but this was stupid and he needs to go. Someone with more fiscal discipline is needed at the helm. 

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1/24/2025 2:41pm

Should've never even bothered buying Husky or GasGas.

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Team403
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1/24/2025 2:49pm

Were the sales strong at close to msrp pricing or strong at deep discounts? Everyone I know that bought a new bike in 24 bought it because of huge discounts.


Another thing I find interesting- we race a couple of off road series that rack up more hours than Mx and I literally do not know anyone that buys a new bike every two years let alone one year intervals - what are the sales projections based on🤔

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MxAddic
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1/24/2025 3:53pm
Beagle wrote:
Restructuring is repaying 30% over 2 years while keeping the company active so the point is not to pay those 30% by selling all their assets.Maybe...

Restructuring is repaying 30% over 2 years while keeping the company active so the point is not to pay those 30% by selling all their assets.

Maybe you meant the 14% in case of liquidation? I guess people tend to not pay full price when they buy after liquidation. Plus some assets would be very hard to sell. Who's gonna buy an inventory of 190 000 bikes? Are there many buyers for a factory in Mattighofen with production capacity of 220 000 bikes/year? Who needs to make over 600 bikes a day? What price would they be ready to pay? Any takers for the 40 000 m2 component factory where they make frames, suspensions and exhausts? Who's in for the 16 000 m2 R&D department? Anyone desperately looking for 25 engine test bench rooms? And the list goes on.

Do you really think nobody is interested in the entire company? You certainly are as nieve as Pierer hopes his creditors are.

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1/24/2025 4:20pm Edited Date/Time 1/25/2025 3:13am
Beagle wrote:
"Saving KTM as a going concern is vital to the economy of the region, also because if KTM AG, the company responsible for manufacturing KTM, Husqvarna...
17377441502272855876842074494232

"Saving KTM as a going concern is vital to the economy of the region, also because if KTM AG, the company responsible for manufacturing KTM, Husqvarna and GASGAS motorcycles goes under, then all of the related businesses go under as well.

For that reason, KTM's creditors have an interest in the survival of the company. If the insolvency proceedings fail, they are likely to receive much less than the 30% of outstanding debts owed to them."

MxAddic wrote:

Without the debt it's a 2 Bil company. How could they only get 30% if the debt is 2.whatever?

Beagle wrote:
Restructuring is repaying 30% over 2 years while keeping the company active so the point is not to pay those 30% by selling all their assets.Maybe...

Restructuring is repaying 30% over 2 years while keeping the company active so the point is not to pay those 30% by selling all their assets.

Maybe you meant the 14% in case of liquidation? I guess people tend to not pay full price when they buy after liquidation. Plus some assets would be very hard to sell. Who's gonna buy an inventory of 190 000 bikes? Are there many buyers for a factory in Mattighofen with production capacity of 220 000 bikes/year? Who needs to make over 600 bikes a day? What price would they be ready to pay? Any takers for the 40 000 m2 component factory where they make frames, suspensions and exhausts? Who's in for the 16 000 m2 R&D department? Anyone desperately looking for 25 engine test bench rooms? And the list goes on.

Pierer Mobility has €2.185 B in debt.

The 14% return in case of liquidation is €306 M.

The 30% return over 2 years by keeping the company trading is €656 M.

A buyout by CFMoto for €700 with immediate payment has to be attractive to the creditors.

image 1021.png?VersionId=JWGS
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MxAddic
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1/24/2025 4:51pm

190K x $6k(production cost) = $1.14 Bil

14 cents on a dollar my ass.

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1/24/2025 4:56pm
MxAddic wrote:

190K x $6k(production cost) = $1.14 Bil

14 cents on a dollar my ass.

If KTM goes bankrupt, no more parts would be made for existing models, will 190k people buy the 190k bikes, if they can't get parts?

MxAddic
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1/24/2025 5:11pm
MxAddic wrote:

190K x $6k(production cost) = $1.14 Bil

14 cents on a dollar my ass.

If KTM goes bankrupt, no more parts would be made for existing models, will 190k people buy the 190k bikes, if they can't get parts?

If they go bankrupt and the entire company is purchased debt free with no Stefan why could they not produce parts?

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1/24/2025 5:38pm
MxAddic wrote:

190K x $6k(production cost) = $1.14 Bil

14 cents on a dollar my ass.

If KTM goes bankrupt, no more parts would be made for existing models, will 190k people buy the 190k bikes, if they can't get parts?

MxAddic wrote:

If they go bankrupt and the entire company is purchased debt free with no Stefan why could they not produce parts?

If it goes bankrupt, the creditors may break it up, to get the best return, no more manufacturing.

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MxAddic
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1/24/2025 5:42pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2025 5:46pm

If it goes bankrupt, the creditors may break it up, to get the best return, no more manufacturing.

IMHO  a buyer is a better option for them. Sayonara Pierer and you don't have to worry about liquidation. Some folks still keep their jobs and hopefully they keep racing SX/MX uninterrupted.

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Beagle
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1/25/2025 3:07am

If it goes bankrupt, the creditors may break it up, to get the best return, no more manufacturing.

MxAddic wrote:
IMHO  a buyer is a better option for them. Sayonara Pierer and you don't have to worry about liquidation. Some folks still keep their jobs and...

IMHO  a buyer is a better option for them. Sayonara Pierer and you don't have to worry about liquidation. Some folks still keep their jobs and hopefully they keep racing SX/MX uninterrupted.

No matter how many reports there are about this, you still don't seem to understand that the most favorable outcome for creditors and employees is the restructuring.

"From a creditor's perspective, an investor coming on board and continuing the company make economic sense. If the company were to be closed and broken up by the insolvency court, the creditors would receive a significantly lower share," summarizes Karl-Heinz Götze from KSV1870, adding: "If the company were to close, significantly more jobs would be lost, which would have massive negative effects on the entire region."

https://www.ksv.at/presse/laufende-insolvenzfaelle/ktm-ag-ergebnis-prue…

KSV is Austria's leading association for the protection of creditors

2 months in this process, the most likely outcome remains the one you said would never happen: Bajaj increases their investment in the company, CFmoto gets onboard, others pitch in as well. I don't think they would do this as an act of kindness to Pierer, nor out of naivety, neither would I say that bankers (owning 80% of the debt) are known for their naivety. We're talking big numbers here, it's quite simple really: if Bajaj and others go this route, and if ultimately bankers were to agree to this plan, it will be because they stand to gain much more if PMG survives than if it dies, period.

We'll know more about that on Monday.

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MxAddic
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1/25/2025 3:31am Edited Date/Time 1/25/2025 3:53am
Beagle wrote:
No matter how many reports there are about this, you still don't seem to understand that the most favorable outcome for creditors and employees is the...

No matter how many reports there are about this, you still don't seem to understand that the most favorable outcome for creditors and employees is the restructuring.

"From a creditor's perspective, an investor coming on board and continuing the company make economic sense. If the company were to be closed and broken up by the insolvency court, the creditors would receive a significantly lower share," summarizes Karl-Heinz Götze from KSV1870, adding: "If the company were to close, significantly more jobs would be lost, which would have massive negative effects on the entire region."

https://www.ksv.at/presse/laufende-insolvenzfaelle/ktm-ag-ergebnis-prue…

KSV is Austria's leading association for the protection of creditors

2 months in this process, the most likely outcome remains the one you said would never happen: Bajaj increases their investment in the company, CFmoto gets onboard, others pitch in as well. I don't think they would do this as an act of kindness to Pierer, nor out of naivety, neither would I say that bankers (owning 80% of the debt) are known for their naivety. We're talking big numbers here, it's quite simple really: if Bajaj and others go this route, and if ultimately bankers were to agree to this plan, it will be because they stand to gain much more if PMG survives than if it dies, period.

We'll know more about that on Monday.

In what world do you think it's better for the creditors to have this guy steering the ship with another promise to pay? You are incorrectly under the assumption the courts will break up the company and not allow a buyer. That's the shit soup Pierer is feeding you. Also instead of misquoting me matter of factly how about you post proof of what you claim I said for once instead of what you imagine.

The Caine Mutiny: A Lesson in ...

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Beagle
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1/25/2025 3:49am
Beagle wrote:
No matter how many reports there are about this, you still don't seem to understand that the most favorable outcome for creditors and employees is the...

No matter how many reports there are about this, you still don't seem to understand that the most favorable outcome for creditors and employees is the restructuring.

"From a creditor's perspective, an investor coming on board and continuing the company make economic sense. If the company were to be closed and broken up by the insolvency court, the creditors would receive a significantly lower share," summarizes Karl-Heinz Götze from KSV1870, adding: "If the company were to close, significantly more jobs would be lost, which would have massive negative effects on the entire region."

https://www.ksv.at/presse/laufende-insolvenzfaelle/ktm-ag-ergebnis-prue…

KSV is Austria's leading association for the protection of creditors

2 months in this process, the most likely outcome remains the one you said would never happen: Bajaj increases their investment in the company, CFmoto gets onboard, others pitch in as well. I don't think they would do this as an act of kindness to Pierer, nor out of naivety, neither would I say that bankers (owning 80% of the debt) are known for their naivety. We're talking big numbers here, it's quite simple really: if Bajaj and others go this route, and if ultimately bankers were to agree to this plan, it will be because they stand to gain much more if PMG survives than if it dies, period.

We'll know more about that on Monday.

MxAddic wrote:
In what world do you think it's better for the creditors to have this guy steering the ship with another promise to pay? You are incorrectly...

In what world do you think it's better for the creditors to have this guy steering the ship with another promise to pay? You are incorrectly under the assumption the courts will break up the company and not allow a buyer. That's the shit soup Pierer is feeding you. Also instead of misquoting me matter of factly how about you post proof of what you claim I said for once instead of what you imagine.

The Caine Mutiny: A Lesson in ...

It's not about what I say, it's about what all the companies, associations and lawyers specialized in insolvency say about this.

Either they're all drunk on Pierer's words and very gullible people or they are much knowledgeable in their field than yourself.

That's a toughie.

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MxAddic
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1/25/2025 3:56am
Beagle wrote:
It's not about what I say, it's about what all the companies, associations and lawyers specialized in insolvency say about this.Either they're all drunk on Pierer's...

It's not about what I say, it's about what all the companies, associations and lawyers specialized in insolvency say about this.

Either they're all drunk on Pierer's words and very gullible people or they are much knowledgeable in their field than yourself.

That's a toughie.

Last I checked it’s not them falsely claiming I said anything, it’s you.

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Beagle
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1/25/2025 5:38am
Beagle wrote:
It's not about what I say, it's about what all the companies, associations and lawyers specialized in insolvency say about this.Either they're all drunk on Pierer's...

It's not about what I say, it's about what all the companies, associations and lawyers specialized in insolvency say about this.

Either they're all drunk on Pierer's words and very gullible people or they are much knowledgeable in their field than yourself.

That's a toughie.

MxAddic wrote:

Last I checked it’s not them falsely claiming I said anything, it’s you.

Sure bud, can't recall all the bad takes you've had on this, how about

"Bajaj would be better off letting it fail and buy it on the cheap"

?

Seems bad enough to me.

You keep claiming that restructuring is a mere promise and that creditors (and even Bajaj!) would be better off with PMG bankruptcy. We get it, it was pretty clear the first dozen of times already.

I'm just pointing that this goes against all reports and that you don't have anything to back this up, it's just what you're "thinking". So in the end it does boil down to your unerring intuition against experts opinion.

Monday will be interesting.

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yak651
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If KTM goes bankrupt, no more parts would be made for existing models, will 190k people buy the 190k bikes, if they can't get parts?

MxAddic wrote:

If they go bankrupt and the entire company is purchased debt free with no Stefan why could they not produce parts?

If it goes bankrupt, the creditors may break it up, to get the best return, no more manufacturing.

Someone can buy the cad files to make the parts. 

1
MxAddic
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1/25/2025 7:06am Edited Date/Time 1/25/2025 7:16am
Beagle wrote:
Sure bud, can't recall all the bad takes you've had on this, how about"Bajaj would be better off letting it fail and buy it on the...

Sure bud, can't recall all the bad takes you've had on this, how about

"Bajaj would be better off letting it fail and buy it on the cheap"

?

Seems bad enough to me.

You keep claiming that restructuring is a mere promise and that creditors (and even Bajaj!) would be better off with PMG bankruptcy. We get it, it was pretty clear the first dozen of times already.

I'm just pointing that this goes against all reports and that you don't have anything to back this up, it's just what you're "thinking". So in the end it does boil down to your unerring intuition against experts opinion.

Monday will be interesting.

If you think these folks are so genuine and smart that you are entangled in their ball hairs maybe you can answer a couple questions.

If Baja was not better off letting it die and buying the company out from under Pierer why have they not ponied up the entire amount to bail him out?

Why are all these smart people not even uttering a breath about the company being bought out from the creditors?

Monday will be an absolute nothing burger as the only way Pierer does not get everything he wants is if Baja votes their shares against him.

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Team403
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1/25/2025 8:05am

Isn’t the entire power sports segment in the drain?  How does capital injections make the company profitable in todays market?  EBITDA was -200M that’s before the cost of debt.  What am I missing?

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indy rider
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1/25/2025 8:20am
Team403 wrote:
Isn’t the entire power sports segment in the drain?  How does capital injections make the company profitable in todays market?  EBITDA was -200M that’s before the...

Isn’t the entire power sports segment in the drain?  How does capital injections make the company profitable in todays market?  EBITDA was -200M that’s before the cost of debt.  What am I missing?

Nah, the industry is profitable except for KTM and Arctic Cat.

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