2- Stroke technology

Edited Date/Time 1/23/2012 11:39pm
I wonder why the big manufacturers don't(didn't) pursue 2 stroke DFI. Lighter, more power, more reliable and CLEANER than EFI four strokes. Seems like a no brainer. Check out the ETEC challenges once page loads.
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/
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2/17/2008 1:35pm
Maybe the AMA sitting on the rule which allowed Yamaha to develop a bike with a huge advantage...and others had to play catch up.
500 Mike
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2/17/2008 2:20pm
Until they find out what it REALLY costs to ride a thumper and then they get out of the sport completely.
nomad15
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2/17/2008 4:35pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
You want the top 3 to blame.
1.Honda-Big red never wanted to build a 2 stroke in the first place.
2.FIM- By forcing their rules on the ama.
3.AMA-for being stupid enough to let it all go on in the first place.
:D
flarider
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2/17/2008 4:45pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
[quote="nomad15":8azyq9vv]You want the top 3 to blame.
1.Honda-Big red never wanted to build a 2 stroke in the first place.
2.FIM- By forcing their rules on the ama.
3.AMA-for being stupid enough to let it all go on i the first place.
:D[/quote:8azyq9vv]
You normally this stupid or just having a bad day?

The Shop

nomad15
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2/17/2008 4:57pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
Oh Great one.
Please tell us with your all knowing wisdom, what caused the demise of the 2-stroke. :D
2/17/2008 5:11pm
I wonder really what the profit has been as a result of the change-over. Re-tooling must cost quite a bit of money. And, ROI on each new tool I'd guess would be much tougher with the more complicated thumper motor. Maybe one of our insiders can provide the numbers that take this into account and provide some direction to my uncertainty.
flarider
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2/17/2008 5:20pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
[quote="nomad15":2r3tl5v8]Oh Great one.
Please tell us with your all knowing wisdom, what caused the demise of the 2-stroke. :D[/quote:2r3tl5v8]
Had little to do with your idiotic idea that Honda never wanted to build a 2stk....
teggers
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2/17/2008 5:27pm
I'd buy one.
2/17/2008 6:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
I just bought another 450 and selling my 250 smoker. Jay547 will probably never talk to me again <img class= " title="Laughing">
2/17/2008 6:57pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
[quote="flarider":2hhdapw5][quote="nomad15":2hhdapw5]Oh Great one.
Please tell us with your all knowing wisdom, what caused the demise of the 2-stroke. :D[/quote:2hhdapw5]
Had little to do with your idiotic idea that Honda never wanted to build a 2stk....[/quote:2hhdapw5]

It's a documented fact that Mr. Honda didn't want to build two stroke MX bikes. That was reported in the first articles about the Elsinore.
ninety3
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2/17/2008 7:01pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
[quote="harescrambled":3ovj8051]

It's a documented fact that Mr. Honda didn't want to build two stroke MX bikes. That was reported in the first articles about the Elsinore.[/quote:3ovj8051]
This is true from what I hear.
flarider
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2/17/2008 7:07pm
Yeah, a billion years ago
Then once they did, they made the best there was and sold the more than anyone


Whatever
nomad15
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2/17/2008 7:25pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
Don't you guys know, dave is always right. he knows everything. :roll:
Facts have nothing to do with it...
flarider
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2/17/2008 7:31pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:11pm
and what rule the the FIM "force" on the AMA?
nomad15
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2/17/2008 7:54pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="flarider":w2n21mvi]and what rule the the FIM "force" on the AMA?[/quote:w2n21mvi]
Has to do with a little thing RC almost quit over. Fuel...
Larry
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2/17/2008 7:59pm
The big 4 can develop a 250 cc 4 stroke and spread that R&D cost over the 5 million units they sell in Asia and Europe.
flarider
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2/17/2008 8:05pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="nomad15":3axpcyet][quote="flarider":3axpcyet]and what rule the the FIM "force" on the AMA?[/quote:3axpcyet]
Has to do with a little thing RC almost quit over. Fuel...
[/quote:3axpcyet]

Was that a "rule" or a decision?
You really need to be more specific and not speak in code
CR250Rider
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2/17/2008 8:09pm
navin johnson figured it out...
IT'S A PROFIT DEAL!
adamdf
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2/17/2008 8:30pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="nomad15":bx09df7p]Oh Great one.
Please tell us with your all knowing wisdom, what caused the demise of the 2-stroke. :D[/quote:bx09df7p]

uhhhhhhh. WE DID. The consumers voted with their wallets.
andymoto
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2/17/2008 10:19pm
Just a matter of time before the Feds/States will mandate emission requirements on closed course bikes...you know, that global warming argument.
2/17/2008 11:48pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote:1xedd7i8]Was that a "rule" or a decision?
You really need to be more specific and not speak in code[/quote:1xedd7i8]


I sat in meetings after meetings for about 3-4 years and listen to the then staff tell us exactly that. We have to be "global" rules, we have to "blend" with FIM, we have to make it all similiar.. ANyone who bucked that idea was dealt with by being shot down when proposing non-compliant rule changes and the such. dave that one I dealt with personally. Oh and today with our 'new' rule changes, I will bet they won't last long, rumblings are already happening. This "new" vision guy has alot of things on the table, the people who are quitting and being fired is getting to be a big list. Watch that AMA board closely and see if it will truely represent the "riders"........ "my trustee" jeff Smith just resigned Friday and he was one hell of a voice for us here in the midwest, so not real sure what the hell is going one, he isn't a "quitter"..........
2/18/2008 4:13am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="adamdf":t8q3xrc6][quote="nomad15":t8q3xrc6]Oh Great one.
Please tell us with your all knowing wisdom, what caused the demise of the 2-stroke. :D[/quote:t8q3xrc6]

uhhhhhhh. WE DID. The consumers voted with their wallets.[/quote:t8q3xrc6]


I think the outdated AMA rules helped a bit.
ns503
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2/18/2008 4:36am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="Todder":3mq2cv1d]I wonder why the big manufacturers don't(didn't) pursue 2 stroke DFI. Lighter, more power, more reliable and CLEANER than EFI four strokes. Seems like a no brainer. Check out the ETEC challenges once page loads.
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/[/quote:3mq2cv1d]


I drove the new BRP 600DI Etec sled two weeks ago. No smoke or smell, drops right to a silky smooth 1000rpm idle when you get off the gas (actually sounds like a small 4 stroke or outboard when idling), but pulls like a typical 2 stroke. Very nice. Better gas mileage and waaaay lighter than the 4 strokes.
flarider
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2/18/2008 5:03am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
Wardy,
Nomad is talking about stuff before Dingman and his "new vision."
Hell, he's referencing Soichiro Honda's personal dislike for the simplicty of the two stroke, even though the very first Honda motorcycle built and sold was the Honda "Dream," a 98cc 2 stroke.
Racer92
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2/18/2008 5:46am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="ns503":b74ax1to][quote="Todder":b74ax1to]I drove the new BRP 600DI Etec sled two weeks ago. No smoke or smell, drops right to a silky smooth 1000rpm idle when you get off the gas (actually sounds like a small 4 stroke or outboard when idling), but pulls like a typical 2 stroke. Very nice. Better gas mileage and waaaay lighter than the 4 strokes.[/quote:b74ax1to][/quote:b74ax1to]
Dont confuse this thread with your first-hand-account facts. The Powers-At-Be have decided you dont need your silly 2-stroke. Turn away from this naive notion that your smoker can be adapted to become better and even surpass the hallowed Thumper. They have decided that the incredibly antiquated Otto Cycle machine is better. Dont you see? We dont need simpler, we need complicated. We need an engine chock full of spinning parts that wear and fail. We need rotating mass all over the engine, cams, buckets, shims, gears, springs & locks, with chains flailing around and valves bouncing off the seat, stems snapping and exhaust so loud you want to jam an ice pick into your ears. Catch up already, Dammit.


"Forget about your silly whim, it doesnt fit the plan" [i:b74ax1to]- Rush 2112[/i:b74ax1to]
j100
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2/18/2008 6:40am
I wonder why this 2 troke EFI doesn't have more steam behind it?

We all know the thumper will never go away, as it's been here for years, but the two stroke EFI is a real eye opener in my opinion.

I know a little about the Evenrude outboard motors and think that same concept would be an amazing fit on a dirt bike.
yanks_178
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2/18/2008 7:06am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="andymoto":9vnhe7ck]Just a matter of time before the Feds/States will mandate emission requirements on closed course bikes...you know, that global warming argument.[/quote:9vnhe7ck]

Emissions is the real reason why we have 4 strokes now!! A 2 stroke can't meet the strict requirements that we will have in the not so distant future.
2/18/2008 7:09am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
[quote="yanks_178":w6qyggpd][quote="andymoto":w6qyggpd]Just a matter of time before the Feds/States will mandate emission requirements on closed course bikes...you know, that global warming argument.[/quote:w6qyggpd]

Emissions is the real reason why we have 4 strokes now!! A 2 stroke can't meet the strict requirements that we will have in the not so distant future.[/quote:w6qyggpd]

These racing 4 stokes aren't that emissions friendly .
2/18/2008 7:57am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:12pm
http://home.ama-cycle.org/membersonly/minutes/1107.asp

those of you that can look at this thread know this. Burleson is the "corporate" rep for KTM of all places, and his bullcrap in this minutes about last year's executive board and ama trustees board decision on class structure was simple a joke. When he goes on to chastize the people for "not listening to that board" after HE voted against rule changes from congress that were voted in the first time unanmously* is nothing more then a friggin joke. If you truely want to see why so many of us are pissed, go back and read some of the minutes from the last three years it's simple to see. WIth Jeff now resigning, "my" area will have a very hard time finding his kind of drive and voice who represented us very well.

two stroke deal is only a small part. When AMA goes and hires a company for structureing, and that company has more history in the car racing venues, we will go farther and farther away from membership and more to a dictatorship. It happened years ago in amatuer mx, and with stupercross, next national mx is on the block along with anything else that can be sold off.

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