Will kawi ever update the 65?

sumdood
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5/13/2024 12:17am

Our son had a 2000 65.  The 65's were way cooler than the KX60's. They looked more like full sized MX'er without the outdated plastic, funky one sided radiator shroud and seat strap on the 60's.  He got 1st place in his first ever "Real" race on that bike. The only other option at that time was a KTM 65, they more capable but physically quite a bit larger, and more $. Plus he was coming off of a KTM Pro Jr that was a money pit. We nicknamed it the ATMLaughing, I wasn't exactly pro ktm after that experience so KX it was.  It was a good little bike he rode the living shit out of it. Not easy rides either, beside getting raced that bike went on long dusty desert rides, got held wide open in the sand for hours on end, constantly being dropped in the sand and over doing 12,000 rpm or whatever they redlined at for minutes at a time haha. 

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APLMAN99
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5/13/2024 4:34pm

Not sure what region you are in but declining interest is just false. 

Dave v3.0 wrote:
In comparison to the 70's & 80's there is absolutely NO comparison in interest.  It doesn't matter what region you are in.  There are fewer places...

In comparison to the 70's & 80's there is absolutely NO comparison in interest.  It doesn't matter what region you are in.  There are fewer places to ride and fewer races to attend.  Honda sold almost 20,000 1974 CR125's and at least that many XR75's in 1973.  Yamaha was equally successful with the JT-1, GT80, and the first 5 years of the YZ80.  Even Maico sold over 5,000 490's just in 1981.  The motorcycle industry is a mere shadow of those numbers today.  And the Japanese have reduced development and production to match sales because of it.

1984, 85 and 86 were boom years for the CR125, with close to 30,000 sold globally each year In 1985 10,507 CR125s were sold in Australia...

1984, 85 and 86 were boom years for the CR125, with close to 30,000 sold globally each year

image-20240513145958-1

In 1985 10,507 CR125s were sold in Australia, in 2020 514 CRF250s were sold in Australia, that's a 95% drop in Honda's market size.

You are right, the motorcycle industry is a mere shadow of it's self.

That would make almost 40% of all 1985 CR125s worldwide sold in Australia?  That’s actually pretty surprising. It’d be interesting to see how many 1985 CR125s were sold by country for the rest of the world, because if 50% were sold in the US, then all the other countries combined would have accounted for 10%. 

5/13/2024 4:57pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
In comparison to the 70's & 80's there is absolutely NO comparison in interest.  It doesn't matter what region you are in.  There are fewer places...

In comparison to the 70's & 80's there is absolutely NO comparison in interest.  It doesn't matter what region you are in.  There are fewer places to ride and fewer races to attend.  Honda sold almost 20,000 1974 CR125's and at least that many XR75's in 1973.  Yamaha was equally successful with the JT-1, GT80, and the first 5 years of the YZ80.  Even Maico sold over 5,000 490's just in 1981.  The motorcycle industry is a mere shadow of those numbers today.  And the Japanese have reduced development and production to match sales because of it.

1984, 85 and 86 were boom years for the CR125, with close to 30,000 sold globally each year In 1985 10,507 CR125s were sold in Australia...

1984, 85 and 86 were boom years for the CR125, with close to 30,000 sold globally each year

image-20240513145958-1

In 1985 10,507 CR125s were sold in Australia, in 2020 514 CRF250s were sold in Australia, that's a 95% drop in Honda's market size.

You are right, the motorcycle industry is a mere shadow of it's self.

APLMAN99 wrote:
That would make almost 40% of all 1985 CR125s worldwide sold in Australia?  That’s actually pretty surprising. It’d be interesting to see how many 1985 CR125s...

That would make almost 40% of all 1985 CR125s worldwide sold in Australia?  That’s actually pretty surprising. It’d be interesting to see how many 1985 CR125s were sold by country for the rest of the world, because if 50% were sold in the US, then all the other countries combined would have accounted for 10%. 

The numbers were based on frame VINs, but I messed up, the same VINs were reported for Australia and Europe

USA  -  JH2JE010FC600001 - JH2JE010FC608237

Australia  -  JH2JE010*FCFC600037 - JH2JE010*FCFC608930

Europe  -  JH2JE010*FCFC600038 - JH2JE010*FCFC608931

Not sure what proportion of those VINs were sold in Australia.

It looks like total global sales in 1985 for the CR125 were 17,131

APLMAN99
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5/13/2024 5:09pm
1984, 85 and 86 were boom years for the CR125, with close to 30,000 sold globally each year In 1985 10,507 CR125s were sold in Australia...

1984, 85 and 86 were boom years for the CR125, with close to 30,000 sold globally each year

image-20240513145958-1

In 1985 10,507 CR125s were sold in Australia, in 2020 514 CRF250s were sold in Australia, that's a 95% drop in Honda's market size.

You are right, the motorcycle industry is a mere shadow of it's self.

APLMAN99 wrote:
That would make almost 40% of all 1985 CR125s worldwide sold in Australia?  That’s actually pretty surprising. It’d be interesting to see how many 1985 CR125s...

That would make almost 40% of all 1985 CR125s worldwide sold in Australia?  That’s actually pretty surprising. It’d be interesting to see how many 1985 CR125s were sold by country for the rest of the world, because if 50% were sold in the US, then all the other countries combined would have accounted for 10%. 

The numbers were based on frame VINs, but I messed up, the same VINs were reported for Australia and Europe USA  -  JH2JE010FC600001 - JH2JE010FC608237 Australia ...

The numbers were based on frame VINs, but I messed up, the same VINs were reported for Australia and Europe

USA  -  JH2JE010FC600001 - JH2JE010FC608237

Australia  -  JH2JE010*FCFC600037 - JH2JE010*FCFC608930

Europe  -  JH2JE010*FCFC600038 - JH2JE010*FCFC608931

Not sure what proportion of those VINs were sold in Australia.

It looks like total global sales in 1985 for the CR125 were 17,131

Sounds more reasonable. Where is the graph from though?  That shows about 27,000 global CR125s. 

The Shop

5/13/2024 5:25pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
That would make almost 40% of all 1985 CR125s worldwide sold in Australia?  That’s actually pretty surprising. It’d be interesting to see how many 1985 CR125s...

That would make almost 40% of all 1985 CR125s worldwide sold in Australia?  That’s actually pretty surprising. It’d be interesting to see how many 1985 CR125s were sold by country for the rest of the world, because if 50% were sold in the US, then all the other countries combined would have accounted for 10%. 

The numbers were based on frame VINs, but I messed up, the same VINs were reported for Australia and Europe USA  -  JH2JE010FC600001 - JH2JE010FC608237 Australia ...

The numbers were based on frame VINs, but I messed up, the same VINs were reported for Australia and Europe

USA  -  JH2JE010FC600001 - JH2JE010FC608237

Australia  -  JH2JE010*FCFC600037 - JH2JE010*FCFC608930

Europe  -  JH2JE010*FCFC600038 - JH2JE010*FCFC608931

Not sure what proportion of those VINs were sold in Australia.

It looks like total global sales in 1985 for the CR125 were 17,131

APLMAN99 wrote:

Sounds more reasonable. Where is the graph from though?  That shows about 27,000 global CR125s. 

The graph is from the same VINs, I should check the data and redo it.

1
OldTech
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5/13/2024 5:47pm

How much would it cost for a parent to build a decent KX65 for a child to race vs buying a new KTM? 

3
5/13/2024 5:59pm
BikePilot wrote:
It's odd, the Japanese have completely given up on making competitive off road bikes, two strokes and minis.  I don't see that changing for a while. ...

It's odd, the Japanese have completely given up on making competitive off road bikes, two strokes and minis.  I don't see that changing for a while.  Maybe if minis go four stroke they'll get back in the game.  For now long live Cobra and the Austrians.  

You must not follow racing! so I'll fill you in of recent events. yesterday Honda just clinched the premiere 2024 450cc supercross championship and the runner...

You must not follow racing! so I'll fill you in of recent events.

yesterday Honda just clinched the premiere 2024 450cc supercross championship and the runner up position was a Yamaha. both Japanese bikes. Yamaha also won the 2023 450cc supercross championship. 

In the 250 class Yamaha, honda, kawasaki have dominated this class for more years than I can count. Japanese bikes as well.

so if you like I can go further. 

Now on the other hand just because the kx 65 needs an update doesn't mean your statement holds complete truth.

You lost me at Yamaha winning the 2023 450 sx title. Snopes just dropped an article about your post calling it misinformation.

I stand corrected!

2022 they did as well you know the rest.

5/13/2024 6:17pm
BikePilot wrote:
It's odd, the Japanese have completely given up on making competitive off road bikes, two strokes and minis.  I don't see that changing for a while. ...

It's odd, the Japanese have completely given up on making competitive off road bikes, two strokes and minis.  I don't see that changing for a while.  Maybe if minis go four stroke they'll get back in the game.  For now long live Cobra and the Austrians.  

You must not follow racing! so I'll fill you in of recent events. yesterday Honda just clinched the premiere 2024 450cc supercross championship and the runner...

You must not follow racing! so I'll fill you in of recent events.

yesterday Honda just clinched the premiere 2024 450cc supercross championship and the runner up position was a Yamaha. both Japanese bikes. Yamaha also won the 2023 450cc supercross championship. 

In the 250 class Yamaha, honda, kawasaki have dominated this class for more years than I can count. Japanese bikes as well.

so if you like I can go further. 

Now on the other hand just because the kx 65 needs an update doesn't mean your statement holds complete truth.

BikePilot wrote:
What does any of that have to do with what I said?  I pointed out off road and minis, obviously the Japanese still are very strong...

What does any of that have to do with what I said?  I pointed out off road and minis, obviously the Japanese still are very strong in MX/SX.  

Well I attend many "off road" events and the tides have changed

At majority of and amateur off road race youll see an average 50/50 split of japanese  and the austrian brand. and youll tent to see your local AA riders on yz 250's because they are still competitive and cheaper to maintain,

on more of a grand scale of the gncc series, yamaha won the xc2 class last year and in the extremely competitive 250A class  Kawasaki has been collecting up the wins this season. 

Dont get me wrong the kx65 needs some love but the japanese has some very competitive bikes.  honestly it comes down to the rider.

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Falcon
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5/14/2024 9:20am

I don't know Kawasaki's specific reasoning, but I'd bet it goes something like this:

"We sell 250 KX65s each year and lose $400 on each one. It's worth it to keep those riders on a green bike, and our research shows we sell, on average, 200 more KX85s, 100 more KX250s and 50 more KX450s because of it." 

-Compare that to the stats on the proposed "new and improved" KX65:-

"We spent $1.8 Million on developing the new KX65, and now we lose $400 on each of the 275 we sell annually (that's 25 more bikes though!), plus the amortization of the $1.9M. If we roll that out over the next 20 years, it means we lose $727 on each bike we sell. I sure hope we can continue to sell 200 more KX85s, 100 more KX250s and 50 more KX450s because of it."

3
5/15/2024 9:01am
OldTech wrote:

How much would it cost for a parent to build a decent KX65 for a child to race vs buying a new KTM? 

They fall behind in suspension and the lack of a powervalve makes them much more difficult to ride in comparison. I looked hard at them, talked to a few prior kx65 owners and my suspension tuner, and decided to go Austrian. 

Plenty of top end power, seem to be reliable. If Kawi just updated the suspension, Id think the conversation would be closer in 2024

lumpy790
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5/15/2024 11:44am
OldTech wrote:

How much would it cost for a parent to build a decent KX65 for a child to race vs buying a new KTM? 

They fall behind in suspension and the lack of a powervalve makes them much more difficult to ride in comparison. I looked hard at them, talked...

They fall behind in suspension and the lack of a powervalve makes them much more difficult to ride in comparison. I looked hard at them, talked to a few prior kx65 owners and my suspension tuner, and decided to go Austrian. 

Plenty of top end power, seem to be reliable. If Kawi just updated the suspension, Id think the conversation would be closer in 2024

I dont know how many team green riders there are on 65’s anymore but if they did a major overhaul l think lots of parents would be standing in line to get one.

After Yamaha came out with their YZ 65 I really did expected Kawasaki to fire up the design engineering department for something with more than BNG 

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tek14
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5/15/2024 11:54am

Next kids Kawasaki bike will be E-powered. 

1
5/15/2024 2:10pm
OldTech wrote:

How much would it cost for a parent to build a decent KX65 for a child to race vs buying a new KTM? 

They fall behind in suspension and the lack of a powervalve makes them much more difficult to ride in comparison. I looked hard at them, talked...

They fall behind in suspension and the lack of a powervalve makes them much more difficult to ride in comparison. I looked hard at them, talked to a few prior kx65 owners and my suspension tuner, and decided to go Austrian. 

Plenty of top end power, seem to be reliable. If Kawi just updated the suspension, Id think the conversation would be closer in 2024

lumpy790 wrote:
I dont know how many team green riders there are on 65’s anymore but if they did a major overhaul l think lots of parents would...

I dont know how many team green riders there are on 65’s anymore but if they did a major overhaul l think lots of parents would be standing in line to get one.

After Yamaha came out with their YZ 65 I really did expected Kawasaki to fire up the design engineering department for something with more than BNG 

I have a Kawasaki shop here in MN and I with heavy discounts built this for less than a KTM group bike. Still not light/fast enough.

3
5/15/2024 2:11pm
They fall behind in suspension and the lack of a powervalve makes them much more difficult to ride in comparison. I looked hard at them, talked...

They fall behind in suspension and the lack of a powervalve makes them much more difficult to ride in comparison. I looked hard at them, talked to a few prior kx65 owners and my suspension tuner, and decided to go Austrian. 

Plenty of top end power, seem to be reliable. If Kawi just updated the suspension, Id think the conversation would be closer in 2024

lumpy790 wrote:
I dont know how many team green riders there are on 65’s anymore but if they did a major overhaul l think lots of parents would...

I dont know how many team green riders there are on 65’s anymore but if they did a major overhaul l think lots of parents would be standing in line to get one.

After Yamaha came out with their YZ 65 I really did expected Kawasaki to fire up the design engineering department for something with more than BNG 

I have a Kawasaki shop here in MN and I with heavy discounts built this for less than a KTM group bike. Still not light/fast enough.

I have a Kawasaki shop here in MN and I with heavy discounts built this for less than a KTM group bike. Still not light/fast enough.

1
wydopen
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805, CA, USA
5/15/2024 2:11pm
OldTech wrote:

How much would it cost for a parent to build a decent KX65 for a child to race vs buying a new KTM? 

Unless your kid doesn't plan to race and just wants to mess around as a trail bike don't waste your time/money. I built one for my son who couldn't touch on an Austrian 65 yet, I did race tech emulators in the fork and revalved the shock which helped slightly. The motor was ok for him at that stage the problem is the ergos. Unless your kid is tall and you can put a tall seat on it they are like riding a kx500 with the old school banana seat. Really hard to teach them proper modern technique. Was night and day once he got on a husky 65.

Especially now you can find a used one for cheap. My sons is for sale for way less than I want to sell it for, fully dialed in with a spring conversion, pipe, fresh motor etc etc and I haven't gotten any interest. I'm sure you can find a good deal. Around here at least there are barley any yz's doing well at the bigger races. It's all Austrian 65s.

 

soggy
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5/15/2024 2:47pm
lumpy790 wrote:
I dont know how many team green riders there are on 65’s anymore but if they did a major overhaul l think lots of parents would...

I dont know how many team green riders there are on 65’s anymore but if they did a major overhaul l think lots of parents would be standing in line to get one.

After Yamaha came out with their YZ 65 I really did expected Kawasaki to fire up the design engineering department for something with more than BNG 

I have a Kawasaki shop here in MN and I with heavy discounts built this for less than a KTM group bike. Still not light/fast enough.

I have a Kawasaki shop here in MN and I with heavy discounts built this for less than a KTM group bike. Still not light/fast enough.

Bitchin looking bike though. 

2
soggy
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5/15/2024 2:48pm
tek14 wrote:

Next kids Kawasaki bike will be E-powered. 

This seems like it’s probably the most likely scenario. 

OldTech
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Decatur, AL, USA
5/15/2024 5:11pm
OldTech wrote:

How much would it cost for a parent to build a decent KX65 for a child to race vs buying a new KTM? 

wydopen wrote:
Unless your kid doesn't plan to race and just wants to mess around as a trail bike don't waste your time/money. I built one for my...

Unless your kid doesn't plan to race and just wants to mess around as a trail bike don't waste your time/money. I built one for my son who couldn't touch on an Austrian 65 yet, I did race tech emulators in the fork and revalved the shock which helped slightly. The motor was ok for him at that stage the problem is the ergos. Unless your kid is tall and you can put a tall seat on it they are like riding a kx500 with the old school banana seat. Really hard to teach them proper modern technique. Was night and day once he got on a husky 65.

Especially now you can find a used one for cheap. My sons is for sale for way less than I want to sell it for, fully dialed in with a spring conversion, pipe, fresh motor etc etc and I haven't gotten any interest. I'm sure you can find a good deal. Around here at least there are barley any yz's doing well at the bigger races. It's all Austrian 65s.

 

I've got to be careful, I'm just commenting to the op. If your 10yr old is bad fast and winning, there is no question. But maybe Kawasaki is on to something? 

OldTech
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5/15/2024 5:38pm

To hell with careful! If you got an eleven year old snot nose kid, you make him practice on a piece of shit. Stuff him off the track...roost him! When he starts mowing the lawn...or gets a job... Starts showing some character, then ask him what he wants to ride

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