Stark Varg LL’s Vet Classes

soggy wrote:

lol. You have absolutely no proof of this. Just cause you saw some posted on IG doesn’t mean anything. 

MxAddic wrote:

Last2Stroke wrote:

soggy wrote:

lol. You have absolutely no proof of this. Just cause you saw some posted on IG doesn’t mean anything. 

MxAddic wrote:

soggy wrote:

Typical response from a dumbass troll that can’t back up any of the dribble they spew 

soggy wrote:

Typical response from a dumbass troll that can’t back up any of the dribble they spew 

MxAddic wrote:

When it comes to spewing dribble you're the top dog on this site.

soggy wrote:

lol. Back up your points then. I’m not the one on here making claims out of thin air that can’t be backed up. 

soggy wrote:

lol. Back up your points then. I’m not the one on here making claims out of thin air that can’t be backed up. 

MxAddic wrote:

   

 

 

Magoofan wrote:

Tacita entering Dakar.    Didn't I see these bikes in the Stallone version of Judge Dredd. WTF abortion is this?     https://www.instagram.com/p/C01n8dsIX9n/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=22f1b2ce-7f81-4285-9eaa-2274d96decb2

Tacita entering Dakar.   

Didn't I see these bikes in the Stallone version of Judge Dredd.

WTF abortion is this?  

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C01n8dsIX9n/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=22f…

soggy wrote:

lol. You have absolutely no proof of this. Just cause you saw some posted on IG doesn’t mean anything. 

Beagle wrote:

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric...

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric dirt bike available at that time, sorry I forgot it). I don't think they foresaw that an unknown company would soon release another electric dirtbike with 3 times more power for 7 more kilos.

It appears to me that the Stark Varg podiums are the first time that an EV is truly competitive against ICE at pro national championship level (be it on two wheels or twice too many). And on a vehicle available to anyone for barely more money than comparable ICE. Ok, except that one Endurocross Alta podium in 2018 immediately followed up by the company unfortunate demise. Honestly if you feel we've been here before I'll be glad to know more about it.

Titan1 wrote:

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their...

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their own production lines and what their competition might be doing) for their products?

No part of me thinks they went full steam ahead on the R&D of an ICE bike with their heads completely in the sand about the future of ICE engines, and possible-better-replacements.   They either believe that electric isn't the long term solution for dirt bikes (that it will be something else entirely), or that the actual full acceptance of electric dirt bikes is so far down the road, that it was worth it to develop an ICE bike rather than an electric one (they can get their ROI on the ICE bike, and develop an electric one before electric tech and consumer sentiment make e-bikes widely accepted and viable).  And they may be right, or wrong about that...but I'd bet on them before I'd bet on "know nothing" (relative to them) Stark Varg owners/fans... 

The real Sasquatch wrote:

 First You would have to know why they are getting into racing. They may just be doing it to advertise their other bikes. And can't really...

 First You would have to know why they are getting into racing. They may just be doing it to advertise their other bikes. And can't really do it by supporting another brand. If that's the case they may just need a bike that they know they can race ASAP. 

They also could have figured they would build bikes for the guys who do not want to ride Electric. If they were able to see the high level of interest in a bike like the Varg before even Stark knew how crazy everybody would go over them. Stark has said they were going into it thinking they could sell 5k bikes a year. Even if they knew about it.  Maybe Triumph is doing it to be the Harley of MX. And Ducati is using it to sell sport bikes . But without really knowing why they are getting into MX/SX its hard to assume that they even cared what the MX bikes of the future will be.  You could be right, or totally of base. 

Zacka 161 wrote:

The sales of super high road bikes have been dropping for the last decade (they are just too fast to be fun on the road) yet...

The sales of super high road bikes have been dropping for the last decade (they are just too fast to be fun on the road) yet they still spend millions on racing and developing tech in MotoGP - I would imagine developing an MX bike would cost maybe 1/5th of the MotoGP program for a year - and those are bikes they can't sell at all - and the rules regularly change that literally outlaw their current bikes.

So to me I don't think that change is something Ducati can't and isn't prepared to pivot through. Suppose E bikes are allowed and a few old pro's holding onto the twilight of their career are all Stark can afford and they are able to show some promise in the technical capabilities of the platform (like Yam with Doug Henry) then within 4/5 years every other manufacturer will likely have a competitor...  But to me the most Stark could be (if limited to 48 and 60 like Aus is doing) is be a Husaberg in the 90s - Maybe show that the tech is interesting but until they are bought by KTM they are just an interesting engineering project off to the side. 

Zacka 161 wrote:

The sales of super high road bikes have been dropping for the last decade (they are just too fast to be fun on the road) yet...

The sales of super high road bikes have been dropping for the last decade (they are just too fast to be fun on the road) yet they still spend millions on racing and developing tech in MotoGP - I would imagine developing an MX bike would cost maybe 1/5th of the MotoGP program for a year - and those are bikes they can't sell at all - and the rules regularly change that literally outlaw their current bikes.

So to me I don't think that change is something Ducati can't and isn't prepared to pivot through. Suppose E bikes are allowed and a few old pro's holding onto the twilight of their career are all Stark can afford and they are able to show some promise in the technical capabilities of the platform (like Yam with Doug Henry) then within 4/5 years every other manufacturer will likely have a competitor...  But to me the most Stark could be (if limited to 48 and 60 like Aus is doing) is be a Husaberg in the 90s - Maybe show that the tech is interesting but until they are bought by KTM they are just an interesting engineering project off to the side. 

racingfortheson wrote:

I don’t think KTM would buy Stark. Look where Honda is on an e-bike. No way KTM hasn’t been working on one. But I’m very excited...

I don’t think KTM would buy Stark. Look where Honda is on an e-bike. No way KTM hasn’t been working on one. But I’m very excited about the future of e-bikes. 

Zoom wrote:

The Vet classes at LL are listed as 122cc-Open cc. So there is no limit on the size of the motor. If you could fit a...

The Vet classes at LL are listed as 122cc-Open cc. So there is no limit on the size of the motor. If you could fit a 1000cc engine into a MX chassis it would be legal. IF they were to allow electric bikes it would fit in the Vet classes and all the 450 classes. All the 450 classes at LL are also 122cc-Open cc. 

I worked at both Alta and Stark and have spoken to the powers at be at MX Sports. They are not ready to make electric bikes legal in ICE classes. Personally, I think eMX bikes will have their own class. Just like the 50cc size eMX bikes. Mainly because of liability. I raced my Alta 6 times and let a few pro's race my demo's. The liability comes from the riders on ICE bikes not able to hear the eMX bikes when they are even right behind them. Trust me, its an issue. When ever I came up on someone, whether in a race or practice, I always gave them lots of room, because in many cases they have no idea you are there. 

I'm a HUGE fan of eMX bikes but I think AMA and MX Sports along with all the major sanctions and promoters will take their time and consider advice from their legal team. That being said, as more riders ride them and see how better their lap times are and more importantly how insanely fun they are along with almost zero maintence on them, the numbers will increase at tracks across the globe. As those numbers grow, classes will be added. Its going to take a while, but its coming. 

Zacka 161 wrote:

The sales of super high road bikes have been dropping for the last decade (they are just too fast to be fun on the road) yet...

The sales of super high road bikes have been dropping for the last decade (they are just too fast to be fun on the road) yet they still spend millions on racing and developing tech in MotoGP - I would imagine developing an MX bike would cost maybe 1/5th of the MotoGP program for a year - and those are bikes they can't sell at all - and the rules regularly change that literally outlaw their current bikes.

So to me I don't think that change is something Ducati can't and isn't prepared to pivot through. Suppose E bikes are allowed and a few old pro's holding onto the twilight of their career are all Stark can afford and they are able to show some promise in the technical capabilities of the platform (like Yam with Doug Henry) then within 4/5 years every other manufacturer will likely have a competitor...  But to me the most Stark could be (if limited to 48 and 60 like Aus is doing) is be a Husaberg in the 90s - Maybe show that the tech is interesting but until they are bought by KTM they are just an interesting engineering project off to the side. 

racingfortheson wrote:

I don’t think KTM would buy Stark. Look where Honda is on an e-bike. No way KTM hasn’t been working on one. But I’m very excited...

I don’t think KTM would buy Stark. Look where Honda is on an e-bike. No way KTM hasn’t been working on one. But I’m very excited about the future of e-bikes. 

Zacka 161 wrote:

  Sorry not that KTM will buy stark, more that Husaberg was an interesting engineering project with some great tech and it took KTM buying them...

 

Sorry not that KTM will buy stark, more that Husaberg was an interesting engineering project with some great tech and it took KTM buying them to win a world championship and cement 4 strokes as truly viable in motocross.  KTM then used their tech to develop the 540sx which was the first four stroke to race a supercross main event.  

 

My point is it took financial and institutional buy in for the four stroke to take hold. 

 

Like Husaberg, Stark is an oddball in the industry with some amazing tech but not enough money or power to really truly be a threat to win at the highest level. Unlike Husaberg, Stark tech has literally stricken fear in the eyes of the other manufacturers and they have done what they can to prevent it even having a chance.  So I feel they either bash around as an upstart untill they get bought (Ala Husaberg and KTM)  OR Honda does what Yamaha did in 1997 with their E bike in 2027 and with enough sway to have the rules written to suit them. 

 

Is it history repeating itself 30 years later…. 

 

Maybe

 

Does anyone know what happened in 1967? It’s a strange pull, but that was the year the Japanese Motocross Championship began and with it development in earnest of the 2 stroke motocrosser to take over the 4 stroke tractors. 

 

Are we in a strange pseudo 30 year motocross propulsion cycle? 🤔 

racingfortheson wrote:

I don’t think KTM would buy Stark. Look where Honda is on an e-bike. No way KTM hasn’t been working on one. But I’m very excited...

I don’t think KTM would buy Stark. Look where Honda is on an e-bike. No way KTM hasn’t been working on one. But I’m very excited about the future of e-bikes. 

Zacka 161 wrote:

  Sorry not that KTM will buy stark, more that Husaberg was an interesting engineering project with some great tech and it took KTM buying them...

 

Sorry not that KTM will buy stark, more that Husaberg was an interesting engineering project with some great tech and it took KTM buying them to win a world championship and cement 4 strokes as truly viable in motocross.  KTM then used their tech to develop the 540sx which was the first four stroke to race a supercross main event.  

 

My point is it took financial and institutional buy in for the four stroke to take hold. 

 

Like Husaberg, Stark is an oddball in the industry with some amazing tech but not enough money or power to really truly be a threat to win at the highest level. Unlike Husaberg, Stark tech has literally stricken fear in the eyes of the other manufacturers and they have done what they can to prevent it even having a chance.  So I feel they either bash around as an upstart untill they get bought (Ala Husaberg and KTM)  OR Honda does what Yamaha did in 1997 with their E bike in 2027 and with enough sway to have the rules written to suit them. 

 

Is it history repeating itself 30 years later…. 

 

Maybe

 

Does anyone know what happened in 1967? It’s a strange pull, but that was the year the Japanese Motocross Championship began and with it development in earnest of the 2 stroke motocrosser to take over the 4 stroke tractors. 

 

Are we in a strange pseudo 30 year motocross propulsion cycle? 🤔 

Silas444 wrote:

That's good stuff, very interesting points, but there are a couple differences. Electric Motocross bikes are slated to become the future whether we like it or...

That's good stuff, very interesting points, but there are a couple differences. Electric Motocross bikes are slated to become the future whether we like it or not (for reasons we all know are silly), whereas four-strokes were just a nostalgic novelty when they were first reintroduced a couple decades ago. No one thought they'd take over, but they did, largely because the advantage in torque they had made riding them so much more forgiving. 

Husaberg was on to something with that canted engine they developed, and anyone who rode one will tell you that (I did - it felt like a 125 with a 450 motor), so KTMs decision to shelve it is one of the most peculiar corporate miscues I've ever witnessed. But hey - KTM is an eccentric company to its core, so making quirky, oddball, somethings idiotic, decisions is nothing new there.

Lastly, it was the Swedish motocrosser Olle Pettersson who came along and helped the Japanese (first Suzuki, then Kawasaki) create a bike good enough to compete with the two-stroke CZs and Greeves already in existence, and by that time, Dave Bickers had already showed the advantage the lighter two-stroke motor had by winning a couple championships in '60 and 61' (if memory serves). 

I love this sport's history and it's tendency toward technological upheaval, and this next chapter will easily be the most exiting of them all.

Zacka 161 wrote:

  Sorry not that KTM will buy stark, more that Husaberg was an interesting engineering project with some great tech and it took KTM buying them...

 

Sorry not that KTM will buy stark, more that Husaberg was an interesting engineering project with some great tech and it took KTM buying them to win a world championship and cement 4 strokes as truly viable in motocross.  KTM then used their tech to develop the 540sx which was the first four stroke to race a supercross main event.  

 

My point is it took financial and institutional buy in for the four stroke to take hold. 

 

Like Husaberg, Stark is an oddball in the industry with some amazing tech but not enough money or power to really truly be a threat to win at the highest level. Unlike Husaberg, Stark tech has literally stricken fear in the eyes of the other manufacturers and they have done what they can to prevent it even having a chance.  So I feel they either bash around as an upstart untill they get bought (Ala Husaberg and KTM)  OR Honda does what Yamaha did in 1997 with their E bike in 2027 and with enough sway to have the rules written to suit them. 

 

Is it history repeating itself 30 years later…. 

 

Maybe

 

Does anyone know what happened in 1967? It’s a strange pull, but that was the year the Japanese Motocross Championship began and with it development in earnest of the 2 stroke motocrosser to take over the 4 stroke tractors. 

 

Are we in a strange pseudo 30 year motocross propulsion cycle? 🤔 

Silas444 wrote:

That's good stuff, very interesting points, but there are a couple differences. Electric Motocross bikes are slated to become the future whether we like it or...

That's good stuff, very interesting points, but there are a couple differences. Electric Motocross bikes are slated to become the future whether we like it or not (for reasons we all know are silly), whereas four-strokes were just a nostalgic novelty when they were first reintroduced a couple decades ago. No one thought they'd take over, but they did, largely because the advantage in torque they had made riding them so much more forgiving. 

Husaberg was on to something with that canted engine they developed, and anyone who rode one will tell you that (I did - it felt like a 125 with a 450 motor), so KTMs decision to shelve it is one of the most peculiar corporate miscues I've ever witnessed. But hey - KTM is an eccentric company to its core, so making quirky, oddball, somethings idiotic, decisions is nothing new there.

Lastly, it was the Swedish motocrosser Olle Pettersson who came along and helped the Japanese (first Suzuki, then Kawasaki) create a bike good enough to compete with the two-stroke CZs and Greeves already in existence, and by that time, Dave Bickers had already showed the advantage the lighter two-stroke motor had by winning a couple championships in '60 and 61' (if memory serves). 

I love this sport's history and it's tendency toward technological upheaval, and this next chapter will easily be the most exiting of them all.

Zacka 161 wrote:

Oh that makes sense. So it was another Swedish innovator… Husaberg, Swedish company… Anton, Swedish…. Those damn Swedes.    What is going on in that socialist...

Oh that makes sense. So it was another Swedish innovator… Husaberg, Swedish company… Anton, Swedish…. Those damn Swedes. 
 

What is going on in that socialist dystopia that could possibly lead to all this motocross innovation? hmmm

 

One more strange connection with Husaberg/ktm.  Australia is the first country with proper rules and it seems it because the Australian Stark Director is former KTM team principle Jeff Leisk.  They have industry pull here

Silas444 wrote:

That's good stuff, very interesting points, but there are a couple differences. Electric Motocross bikes are slated to become the future whether we like it or...

That's good stuff, very interesting points, but there are a couple differences. Electric Motocross bikes are slated to become the future whether we like it or not (for reasons we all know are silly), whereas four-strokes were just a nostalgic novelty when they were first reintroduced a couple decades ago. No one thought they'd take over, but they did, largely because the advantage in torque they had made riding them so much more forgiving. 

Husaberg was on to something with that canted engine they developed, and anyone who rode one will tell you that (I did - it felt like a 125 with a 450 motor), so KTMs decision to shelve it is one of the most peculiar corporate miscues I've ever witnessed. But hey - KTM is an eccentric company to its core, so making quirky, oddball, somethings idiotic, decisions is nothing new there.

Lastly, it was the Swedish motocrosser Olle Pettersson who came along and helped the Japanese (first Suzuki, then Kawasaki) create a bike good enough to compete with the two-stroke CZs and Greeves already in existence, and by that time, Dave Bickers had already showed the advantage the lighter two-stroke motor had by winning a couple championships in '60 and 61' (if memory serves). 

I love this sport's history and it's tendency toward technological upheaval, and this next chapter will easily be the most exiting of them all.

Zacka 161 wrote:

Oh that makes sense. So it was another Swedish innovator… Husaberg, Swedish company… Anton, Swedish…. Those damn Swedes.    What is going on in that socialist...

Oh that makes sense. So it was another Swedish innovator… Husaberg, Swedish company… Anton, Swedish…. Those damn Swedes. 
 

What is going on in that socialist dystopia that could possibly lead to all this motocross innovation? hmmm

 

One more strange connection with Husaberg/ktm.  Australia is the first country with proper rules and it seems it because the Australian Stark Director is former KTM team principle Jeff Leisk.  They have industry pull here

Last2Stroke wrote:

I wonder if KTM still talks to Jeff Leisk!

Zacka 161 wrote:

Oh that makes sense. So it was another Swedish innovator… Husaberg, Swedish company… Anton, Swedish…. Those damn Swedes.    What is going on in that socialist...

Oh that makes sense. So it was another Swedish innovator… Husaberg, Swedish company… Anton, Swedish…. Those damn Swedes. 
 

What is going on in that socialist dystopia that could possibly lead to all this motocross innovation? hmmm

 

One more strange connection with Husaberg/ktm.  Australia is the first country with proper rules and it seems it because the Australian Stark Director is former KTM team principle Jeff Leisk.  They have industry pull here

Last2Stroke wrote:

I wonder if KTM still talks to Jeff Leisk!

Zoom wrote:

Jeff Leisk is no longer the Country Manager in Australia for Stark. Its now Michael Sleeter. Jeff has scaled back and is now a consultant.  But...

Jeff Leisk is no longer the Country Manager in Australia for Stark. Its now Michael Sleeter. Jeff has scaled back and is now a consultant. 

But to answer your question, no I don't think KTM is talking to Jeff anymore!