No clutch shifting?!

12/11/2023 5:15pm
Kiernan mx wrote:
Once they get to near peak rpm they unload the drive train and it shifts. But shifting earlier in the rpm may require a dab of...

Once they get to near peak rpm they unload the drive train and it shifts. But shifting earlier in the rpm may require a dab of the clutch. Just don’t let the gas off though as it takes time for the engine to build rpm again. I’m talking full moto race mode. If I’m trail riding just cruising around then I do all sorts of different gear changes. But never the “car” gear change with throttle off AND clutch. 

captmoto wrote:

Takes time to build RPM? What? I must be doing it wrong. I never noticed taking any time to build RPM back up.

Especially odd if a close ratio transmission like all MX bikes have.  

uncledaddy69
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12/11/2023 6:47pm

This is only possible if you use shell rotella

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Kiernan mx
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12/12/2023 12:25pm
Kiernan mx wrote:
Once they get to near peak rpm they unload the drive train and it shifts. But shifting earlier in the rpm may require a dab of...

Once they get to near peak rpm they unload the drive train and it shifts. But shifting earlier in the rpm may require a dab of the clutch. Just don’t let the gas off though as it takes time for the engine to build rpm again. I’m talking full moto race mode. If I’m trail riding just cruising around then I do all sorts of different gear changes. But never the “car” gear change with throttle off AND clutch. 

captmoto wrote:

Takes time to build RPM? What? I must be doing it wrong. I never noticed taking any time to build RPM back up.

Especially odd if a close ratio transmission like all MX bikes have.  

If it’s the difference between getting your elbow in front of the next guy so you can control the first turn then that’s what you gotta do. Every micro second counts when ya racing !! 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

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BobPA
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12/12/2023 12:47pm
Kiernan mx wrote:
If it’s the difference between getting your elbow in front of the next guy so you can control the first turn then that’s what you gotta...

If it’s the difference between getting your elbow in front of the next guy so you can control the first turn then that’s what you gotta do. Every micro second counts when ya racing !! 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Maybe post a video of these full stop shifts. I'd be willing to bet that you instinctually blip the throttle during a shift.

 

Why do air shifted drag bikes run a strain gauge to cut the ignition during upshifts? Why do new KTMS do the same with their quick shift technology? BMW also cut the ignition for their full throttle shifts.You must have a monstrous left foot, because my bikes simply refuse to shift while under power. 

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The Shop

Falcon
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12/12/2023 1:05pm
Gworm wrote:

I think tdawg is messing with you guys. 

I don't know about Tdawg, but StillSmokin definitely is. 

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Kiernan mx
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12/12/2023 1:26pm
Kiernan mx wrote:
If it’s the difference between getting your elbow in front of the next guy so you can control the first turn then that’s what you gotta...

If it’s the difference between getting your elbow in front of the next guy so you can control the first turn then that’s what you gotta do. Every micro second counts when ya racing !! 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

BobPA wrote:
Maybe post a video of these full stop shifts. I'd be willing to bet that you instinctually blip the throttle during a shift.   Why do...

Maybe post a video of these full stop shifts. I'd be willing to bet that you instinctually blip the throttle during a shift.

 

Why do air shifted drag bikes run a strain gauge to cut the ignition during upshifts? Why do new KTMS do the same with their quick shift technology? BMW also cut the ignition for their full throttle shifts.You must have a monstrous left foot, because my bikes simply refuse to shift while under power. 

That’s why you dab the clutch if it won’t go through. But generally the choppy bumps do the unloading for you and it clicks through. Full throttle. Or when it hits limiter it unloads a bit. If I hear someone changing gears by letting off the throttle I instantly think they’re brand new to riding and have never raced. Id post a vid but I had surgery on my foot so can’t actually walk right now either. 
what sort of riding do you guys do? Ktms are the worst shifting bikes I’ve ridden. That’s why they got quick shift built in. 

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enketchum
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12/12/2023 1:30pm

I raced for many years and never used the clutch to shift. 

Now that I'm a trail rider, I will slip the clutch when down shifting so it's not so harsh. 

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BobPA
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12/12/2023 1:33pm
Kiernan mx wrote:
That’s why you dab the clutch if it won’t go through. But generally the choppy bumps do the unloading for you and it clicks through. Full...

That’s why you dab the clutch if it won’t go through. But generally the choppy bumps do the unloading for you and it clicks through. Full throttle. Or when it hits limiter it unloads a bit. If I hear someone changing gears by letting off the throttle I instantly think they’re brand new to riding and have never raced. Id post a vid but I had surgery on my foot so can’t actually walk right now either. 
what sort of riding do you guys do? Ktms are the worst shifting bikes I’ve ridden. That’s why they got quick shift built in. 

I ride everything. YZ125 and KX450 for MX and KTM300XC for the woods. So "choppy bumps" or the "rev limiter" unload the transmission enough to full throttle shift? I'm not sure I am buying that one. 

 

KTMs have quick shift because it is more beneficial for lap times, not because they are the worst shifting bikes... You cannot be serious. 

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Kiernan mx
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12/12/2023 2:13pm
Kiernan mx wrote:
That’s why you dab the clutch if it won’t go through. But generally the choppy bumps do the unloading for you and it clicks through. Full...

That’s why you dab the clutch if it won’t go through. But generally the choppy bumps do the unloading for you and it clicks through. Full throttle. Or when it hits limiter it unloads a bit. If I hear someone changing gears by letting off the throttle I instantly think they’re brand new to riding and have never raced. Id post a vid but I had surgery on my foot so can’t actually walk right now either. 
what sort of riding do you guys do? Ktms are the worst shifting bikes I’ve ridden. That’s why they got quick shift built in. 

BobPA wrote:
I ride everything. YZ125 and KX450 for MX and KTM300XC for the woods. So "choppy bumps" or the "rev limiter" unload the transmission enough to full...

I ride everything. YZ125 and KX450 for MX and KTM300XC for the woods. So "choppy bumps" or the "rev limiter" unload the transmission enough to full throttle shift? I'm not sure I am buying that one. 

 

KTMs have quick shift because it is more beneficial for lap times, not because they are the worst shifting bikes... You cannot be serious. 

I’m dead serious. The 22 Ktm sxf you genuinely could not change at full throttle. Where as my Yamaha ( all other bikes I’ve ridden to be fair) just slips through easy. The 22 Ktm was a great bike that l really enjoyed bar the shifting. It was horrible. I wasnt at all surprised they put quickshift on it. Are you talking full throttle no clutch?? Or full throttle with clutch ?? I understand that sometimes it doesn’t want to go through exactly when you want to to without clutch, so that’s when you dab the clutch. But never ever let the gas off if in a race situation. 

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WhipMeister
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12/12/2023 5:14pm

Only downside is it is hard on shift forks and gear dogs. If you're cool with splitting the cases to fix those, it's no big deal.

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12/12/2023 5:40pm

I don't get it.  My index and middle finger has been connected in perfect unison to my foot and big toe since I was 6 years old.  

9
12/12/2023 6:16pm

Only downside is it is hard on shift forks and gear dogs. If you're cool with splitting the cases to fix those, it's no big deal.

I’ve been riding my whole life and have never used the clutch to shift other than to put it in gear. Have never had to split the cases cause of it on any bike I’ve ever owned and they all made it well over 100 hours. Only use the clutch in corners and to hit the brake in the air.  

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FB14
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12/12/2023 6:27pm

While you can shift while on the gas, you will miss shifts if holding wide open. Best technique is power shifting by nipping the clutch. 

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brocster
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12/12/2023 7:08pm

I have always been a clutch guy. Every time I tried no clutch shifting my shifting points were missed, in my mind, due to it not going in gear when I precisely wanted it. Thus, me using the clutch always. 
 

Maybe I’ll give it another try next week and report back. 

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Gworm
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12/13/2023 7:50am
I’ve been riding my whole life and have never used the clutch to shift other than to put it in gear. Have never had to split...

I’ve been riding my whole life and have never used the clutch to shift other than to put it in gear. Have never had to split the cases cause of it on any bike I’ve ever owned and they all made it well over 100 hours. Only use the clutch in corners and to hit the brake in the air.  

Do you back off the throttle when you shift?

BobPA
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12/13/2023 10:06am
Kiernan mx wrote:
I’m dead serious. The 22 Ktm sxf you genuinely could not change at full throttle. Where as my Yamaha ( all other bikes I’ve ridden to...

I’m dead serious. The 22 Ktm sxf you genuinely could not change at full throttle. Where as my Yamaha ( all other bikes I’ve ridden to be fair) just slips through easy. The 22 Ktm was a great bike that l really enjoyed bar the shifting. It was horrible. I wasnt at all surprised they put quickshift on it. Are you talking full throttle no clutch?? Or full throttle with clutch ?? I understand that sometimes it doesn’t want to go through exactly when you want to to without clutch, so that’s when you dab the clutch. But never ever let the gas off if in a race situation. 

When you are healed you should post up a video with you on the throttle stop and the bike just effortlessly going into gear. Maybe all the bikes I have ridden for the past twenty-some-odd years have been turds. I dab the clutch and she goes right in. Gary Bailey taught me to always have a finger on the clutch. I know that is taboo nowadays, but it is how I learned so it is just an instinctual reaction. 

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Gworm
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12/13/2023 10:49am
BobPA wrote:
When you are healed you should post up a video with you on the throttle stop and the bike just effortlessly going into gear. Maybe all...

When you are healed you should post up a video with you on the throttle stop and the bike just effortlessly going into gear. Maybe all the bikes I have ridden for the past twenty-some-odd years have been turds. I dab the clutch and she goes right in. Gary Bailey taught me to always have a finger on the clutch. I know that is taboo nowadays, but it is how I learned so it is just an instinctual reaction. 

Bob, I’m with you on this. The only thing I’d say is I usually preload the shifter a little before the shift, and on my Hondas (two strokes) occasionally it will shift before I I dab the clutch. But the throttle cable is always pulled tight. 
 

I’m thinking these “never clutchers “ are backing off. Which I just don’t understand. 
 

I remember having this discussion with guys in Junior High in the 70s. 

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12/13/2023 11:06am

Vital1

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Kiernan mx
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12/13/2023 1:08pm
Kiernan mx wrote:
I’m dead serious. The 22 Ktm sxf you genuinely could not change at full throttle. Where as my Yamaha ( all other bikes I’ve ridden to...

I’m dead serious. The 22 Ktm sxf you genuinely could not change at full throttle. Where as my Yamaha ( all other bikes I’ve ridden to be fair) just slips through easy. The 22 Ktm was a great bike that l really enjoyed bar the shifting. It was horrible. I wasnt at all surprised they put quickshift on it. Are you talking full throttle no clutch?? Or full throttle with clutch ?? I understand that sometimes it doesn’t want to go through exactly when you want to to without clutch, so that’s when you dab the clutch. But never ever let the gas off if in a race situation. 

BobPA wrote:
When you are healed you should post up a video with you on the throttle stop and the bike just effortlessly going into gear. Maybe all...

When you are healed you should post up a video with you on the throttle stop and the bike just effortlessly going into gear. Maybe all the bikes I have ridden for the past twenty-some-odd years have been turds. I dab the clutch and she goes right in. Gary Bailey taught me to always have a finger on the clutch. I know that is taboo nowadays, but it is how I learned so it is just an instinctual reaction. 

I’m a finger on the clutch guy too. 100% of the time. Feels wrong not to have it there. I posted a video of Jett doing a start but it disappeared, where his front wheel is off the ground the entire start straight. You’ve probably seen it. He’s not letting off to shift. I think the original post was more about not letting off the throttle and less about clutch. I’ve seriously no reason to come on here and falsely claim about bikes shifting so believe when I say it works. But as I’ve said , not 100% of the time, if it’s smooth I’ll dab the clutch for a more precise shift ( timing of shift more important then not dabing clutch) I use the clutch a lot for control, but honestly I’d say 80% of my gear shifts are done in the Air to avoid shifting on the ground anyway. 

12/13/2023 4:34pm
Gworm wrote:

Do you back off the throttle when you shift?

Nope. Been riding this way since I got on 65’s

Gworm
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12/13/2023 9:14pm

Nope. Been riding this way since I got on 65’s

Thanks, just wondering. 

ProKawi24
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12/14/2023 2:22am

Last bike I raced was a KX85 back in 2001 so I've never ridden a 4-stroke but I never used the clutch to shift.  I used it to help keep the RPM's up in some corners, when tapping the rear brake in the air, and out of the gate for starts, otherwise every time I shifted up or down I would just bang through the gears with throttle wide open when shifting up. Never let off at all to shift up. 

AH387
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12/14/2023 5:55am

In general, I always give a quick fan of the clutch on upshifts, but I leave the throttle on and don't do anything w the throttle for the shift. And I never clutch downshifts. That might not be the proper technique but it's how I was taught and what feels natural to me. A long time ago I tried to start doing no clutch upshifts under full power, and had times where the bike felt like it didn't want to. And after that, I just went back to my method. There are some instances where I might want to shift between jumps or something and will click it in the air w/o the clutch or shortshift w/o the clutch. But in general I give a quick fan to upshift in most cases. But I never made it beyong a below avg B rider (in my prime), so don't take my advice lol. 

12/14/2023 6:14am Edited Date/Time 12/14/2023 6:14am

I don’t even use the clutch to roll off, just rev the piss out of it in neutral and smack er down into first 👍🏻

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Gworm
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12/14/2023 6:30am

With all of the comments about downshifts without the clutch, it got me thinking. Is this on a track, or riding in the woods? 
 

I had to think for a bit, but, at least when I was young and semi fast, I don’t think I ever downshifted on a track without the clutch in while I was braking into a corner. 

bonseff
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12/14/2023 7:19am

I did the math on shifting with the clutch and it turns out the drive/performance drop is negligible Off-Site] Z71/4x4 : r/theydidthemath

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Gworm
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12/14/2023 7:27am
bonseff wrote:
I did the math on shifting with the clutch and it turns out the drive/performance drop is negligible

I did the math on shifting with the clutch and it turns out the drive/performance drop is negligible Off-Site] Z71/4x4 : r/theydidthemath

Sorry, but your math is flawed…

It doesn’t look like you accounted for the drag coefficient of the carburetor belt, or the coolant temp in the clutch. 

I think you should start over. 

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bonseff
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12/14/2023 7:32am

That blasted carburetor belt. The tension of the belt is a huge factor. DAMMIT

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TAUTOG
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12/14/2023 7:53am
I don't get it.  My index and middle finger has been connected in perfect unison to my foot and big toe since I was 6 years...

I don't get it.  My index and middle finger has been connected in perfect unison to my foot and big toe since I was 6 years old.  

same those 2 fingers almost never leave the clutch just like my middle finger on the front brake

12/14/2023 2:42pm
I don't get it.  My index and middle finger has been connected in perfect unison to my foot and big toe since I was 6 years...

I don't get it.  My index and middle finger has been connected in perfect unison to my foot and big toe since I was 6 years old.  

TAUTOG wrote:

same those 2 fingers almost never leave the clutch just like my middle finger on the front brake

How do you communicate with other riders, if your middle finger doesn't leave the front brake?

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