If you want a very personal and historical perspective on what is going on in Israel and Palestine. Please read.

TAUTOG
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colintrax
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10/11/2023 8:21pm

Unfortunately that's entirely too long of a read to reach those that need to read it.

 

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Chance1216
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10/12/2023 7:55am

After reading that, I’m left with a question. How can people feel sorry for Palestine when, the Palestinians voted Hamas in to represent them? 

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Tater
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10/12/2023 8:14am
Chance1216 wrote:

After reading that, I’m left with a question. How can people feel sorry for Palestine when, the Palestinians voted Hamas in to represent them? 

Knowing how our own election system works, or doesn't work, how can you say the average Palestinian really wanted Hamas voted in? 

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APLMAN99
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10/12/2023 8:16am
Chance1216 wrote:

After reading that, I’m left with a question. How can people feel sorry for Palestine when, the Palestinians voted Hamas in to represent them? 

I get what you are saying but try to put that into a different perspective. 

Let's just say that an Iraqi had bombed a major city after the 2003 invasion of Iraq.  Would it be impossible to feel sorry for the dead Americans simply because "they" had elected George Bush to represent them, and he was the one who called for the invasion of Iraq?  I don't think so.  And remember, half of the population in Gaza is not even of voting age, so they don't even really have a voice.  

I think it is very difficult for us in America (and most of the Western World) to understand what the dynamic is there because we truly come from a perspective of political stability, even in our worst political moments.  We can sit down and research our choices and make decisions based on many factors.  For Gaza, just eeking out a living from one day to another is a monumental struggle.  

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Magoofan
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10/12/2023 8:30am
colintrax wrote:

Unfortunately that's entirely too long of a read to reach those that need to read it.

 

I read the whole thing....  my response:  Fuck that guy. 

This quote says it all:  "It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this."       I about choked when I read the word "logic". 

The people living in Gaza have supported evil, voted in evil and I will not feel sorry for them.     The innocent who do not support this need to start pointing fingers at those who do if they want change.     

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Titan1
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10/12/2023 9:53am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2023 12:01pm

I read that...very interesting and I appreciate the perspective.

This quote: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."  Kind of muddies the water for the rest of it, for me though.  If he genuinely believes that Israel belongs to the Jews, then he can't fault Israel for defending itself.

I understand that Palestine (Palestinians) is pissed at Israel...and that they only know "blood for blood"...but they have to realize that, like it or not, they'll lose every conflict...they might cause a little damage, but in the end they'll lose.  Israel is the biggest kid on the playground, if the little kid (Palestine) insists on poking and pestering the big kid (no matter how they justify their actions) they can't be surprised when the big kid turns around and punches them in the face...and when the big kid punches the little kid, its going to hurt the little kid far more than it would hurt the big kid if the little kid punches him (for the "proportional response" people).  The little kid should know this, and should just stop pestering the big kid.

I feel for the innocents caught in this...just like in every war.  I feel for the innocent Germans and Japanese that died in WW2...but nobody would argue WW2 wasn't morally justified, despite the enormous amounts of collateral damage that occurred (as heart breaking as the collateral damage might be)...

So, if the author of that piece really believes that "the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel"...then I think he has to accept that its morally just for them to eliminate their enemies (who surround them, hate them, want to see them wiped off the face of the earth, and have vowed to never stop until that is accomplished), despite the collateral damage that will (and always does) occur during times of war.

I stand with Israel in this...I feel for the innocent lives lost and destroyed...but Palestine started it, refuses to accept the historical claim that Israel rightly has to that land , and has vowed to destroy Israel...so Israel is justified in defending itself. 

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Titan1
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10/12/2023 10:04am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2023 1:35pm
rc51 wrote:

Here is another perspective worth a read.   https://twitter.com/benjaminsimon97/status/1712109100752949609

308 wrote:

Screen Shot 2023-10-12 at 11.39.38 AM.png?VersionId=qiCjRuh Hzff6NvYBIBvXsM7

I think the argument that Israels actions will only radicalize more Palestinians, points to some type of weakness or flaws in that (Palestinian) entire culture...not a flaw in Israels actions.

Did WW2 radicalize the German citizens (even though they may not have supported their government, went through hell, and no doubt lost loved ones and homes to the bombings from the allies)?  No...they accepted defeat, made changes, and the world is better off for it. Why can't the Palestinians do that?

If the Palestinians would just accept that this land isn't theirs, and accept defeat, and make some changes the world-including, and perhaps especially, their own lives-would be better off for it (rather than getting radicalized, and seek revenge)...this war ends.

It's almost cliche at this point....but if Palestine lays down their weapons we get peace...is Israel lays down their weapons, they get wiped off the face of the earth...is true and can't be ignored.   

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10/12/2023 10:14am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2023 10:16am
Titan1 wrote:
I think the argument that Israels actions will only radicalize more Palestinians, points to some type of weakness or flaws in that (Palestinian) entire culture...not a...

I think the argument that Israels actions will only radicalize more Palestinians, points to some type of weakness or flaws in that (Palestinian) entire culture...not a flaw in Israels actions.

Did WW2 radicalize the German citizens (even though they may not have supported their government, went through hell, and no doubt lost loved ones and homes to the bombings from the allies)?  No...they accepted defeat, made changes, and the world is better off for it. Why can't the Palestinians do that?

If the Palestinians would just accept that this land isn't theirs, and accept defeat, and make some changes the world-including, and perhaps especially, their own lives-would be better off for it (rather than getting radicalized, and seek revenge)...this war ends.

It's almost cliche at this point....but if Palestine lays down their weapons we get peace...is Israel lays down their weapons, they get wiped off the face of the earth...is true and can't be ignored.   

I just thought it was fair to post Isaac's reply to Ben Simons comment.

I have no dog in this fight. 
Israel is surrounded by hostile Muslim nations. I don't see peace and forgiveness coming to that region anytime soon.

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Gworm
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10/12/2023 10:42am
Titan1 wrote:
I read that...very interesting and I appreciate the perspective. This quote: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of...

I read that...very interesting and I appreciate the perspective.

This quote: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."  Kind of muddies the water for the rest of it, for me though.  If he genuinely believes that Israel belongs to the Jews, then he can't fault Israel for defending itself.

I understand that Palestine (Palestinians) is pissed at Israel...and that they only know "blood for blood"...but they have to realize that, like it or not, they'll lose every conflict...they might cause a little damage, but in the end they'll lose.  Israel is the biggest kid on the playground, if the little kid (Palestine) insists on poking and pestering the big kid (no matter how they justify their actions) they can't be surprised when the big kid turns around and punches them in the face...and when the big kid punches the little kid, its going to hurt the little kid far more than it would hurt the big kid if the little kid punches him (for the "proportional response" people).  The little kid should know this, and should just stop pestering the big kid.

I feel for the innocents caught in this...just like in every war.  I feel for the innocent Germans and Japanese that died in WW2...but nobody would argue WW2 wasn't morally justified, despite the enormous amounts of collateral damage that occurred (as heart breaking as the collateral damage might be)...

So, if the author of that piece really believes that "the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel"...then I think he has to accept that its morally just for them to eliminate their enemies (who surround them, hate them, want to see them wiped off the face of the earth, and have vowed to never stop until that is accomplished), despite the collateral damage that will (and always does) occur during times of war.

I stand with Israel in this...I feel for the innocent lives lost and destroyed...but Palestine started it, refuses to accept the historical claim that Israel rightly has to that land , and has vowed to destroy Israel...so Israel is justified in defending itself. 

Titan,

Don't take this wrong, but I think your IQ and your ability to articulate has to be higher than the rest of vital combined. I know that’s still pretty low, so I apologize. 
 

Are you sure you’re a motocrosser?

 

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Titan1
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10/12/2023 11:58am
Titan1 wrote:
I read that...very interesting and I appreciate the perspective. This quote: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of...

I read that...very interesting and I appreciate the perspective.

This quote: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."  Kind of muddies the water for the rest of it, for me though.  If he genuinely believes that Israel belongs to the Jews, then he can't fault Israel for defending itself.

I understand that Palestine (Palestinians) is pissed at Israel...and that they only know "blood for blood"...but they have to realize that, like it or not, they'll lose every conflict...they might cause a little damage, but in the end they'll lose.  Israel is the biggest kid on the playground, if the little kid (Palestine) insists on poking and pestering the big kid (no matter how they justify their actions) they can't be surprised when the big kid turns around and punches them in the face...and when the big kid punches the little kid, its going to hurt the little kid far more than it would hurt the big kid if the little kid punches him (for the "proportional response" people).  The little kid should know this, and should just stop pestering the big kid.

I feel for the innocents caught in this...just like in every war.  I feel for the innocent Germans and Japanese that died in WW2...but nobody would argue WW2 wasn't morally justified, despite the enormous amounts of collateral damage that occurred (as heart breaking as the collateral damage might be)...

So, if the author of that piece really believes that "the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel"...then I think he has to accept that its morally just for them to eliminate their enemies (who surround them, hate them, want to see them wiped off the face of the earth, and have vowed to never stop until that is accomplished), despite the collateral damage that will (and always does) occur during times of war.

I stand with Israel in this...I feel for the innocent lives lost and destroyed...but Palestine started it, refuses to accept the historical claim that Israel rightly has to that land , and has vowed to destroy Israel...so Israel is justified in defending itself. 

Gworm wrote:
Titan, Don't take this wrong, but I think your IQ and your ability to articulate has to be higher than the rest of vital combined. I...

Titan,

Don't take this wrong, but I think your IQ and your ability to articulate has to be higher than the rest of vital combined. I know that’s still pretty low, so I apologize. 
 

Are you sure you’re a motocrosser?

 

I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, but I'm going to disagree.  There are many here who are smarter and more articulate than I am.

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ToolMaker
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10/12/2023 3:07pm

We use to have a member here that went to many places most of us would never go. I think sunhouse or something like that?

Anyway, it seemed that where ever he went, the actual people that lived there were decent. It seems that country leaders somehow get the country's population to do horrible things that average people just want no part of. I truly believe that most people where ever you go just want to get through the day happy and get along with other people. Average people have no ability to get countries to go to war, and yet, there seems to be more war going on right now than during most of my life. How is it we can't have leaders that understand we don't want war?

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Hudweiser9
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10/12/2023 8:29pm
ToolMaker wrote:
We use to have a member here that went to many places most of us would never go. I think sunhouse or something like that? Anyway...

We use to have a member here that went to many places most of us would never go. I think sunhouse or something like that?

Anyway, it seemed that where ever he went, the actual people that lived there were decent. It seems that country leaders somehow get the country's population to do horrible things that average people just want no part of. I truly believe that most people where ever you go just want to get through the day happy and get along with other people. Average people have no ability to get countries to go to war, and yet, there seems to be more war going on right now than during most of my life. How is it we can't have leaders that understand we don't want war?

Good question...

War is profitable. Money = power. "Leaders" want more of both.

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INeedaNewUsername
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10/12/2023 8:56pm
ToolMaker wrote:
We use to have a member here that went to many places most of us would never go. I think sunhouse or something like that? Anyway...

We use to have a member here that went to many places most of us would never go. I think sunhouse or something like that?

Anyway, it seemed that where ever he went, the actual people that lived there were decent. It seems that country leaders somehow get the country's population to do horrible things that average people just want no part of. I truly believe that most people where ever you go just want to get through the day happy and get along with other people. Average people have no ability to get countries to go to war, and yet, there seems to be more war going on right now than during most of my life. How is it we can't have leaders that understand we don't want war?

Yes, he went to Syria at the height of civil war/unrest. Extreme tourism/travel. Many regular people are just that, don't get caught up in the BS that their puppet masters dole out. But...many regular people align with their own during times of strife, self induced or otherwise out of ignorance and apathy. Any other time, it is coffee and cigarettes.

scott_nz
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10/12/2023 10:26pm

that area has been at war with each other for longer than 3000 years,  I don't see lasting peace anytime soon, 

 

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tunedlength
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10/13/2023 10:50am
ToolMaker wrote:
We use to have a member here that went to many places most of us would never go. I think sunhouse or something like that? Anyway...

We use to have a member here that went to many places most of us would never go. I think sunhouse or something like that?

Anyway, it seemed that where ever he went, the actual people that lived there were decent. It seems that country leaders somehow get the country's population to do horrible things that average people just want no part of. I truly believe that most people where ever you go just want to get through the day happy and get along with other people. Average people have no ability to get countries to go to war, and yet, there seems to be more war going on right now than during most of my life. How is it we can't have leaders that understand we don't want war?

Hudweiser9 wrote:

Good question...

War is profitable. Money = power. "Leaders" want more of both.

"And some just want to watch the world burn"

prozach
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10/13/2023 12:59pm

If one side lays down their guns and accepts defeat what will the end result be? It's a good question to ask.  If Israel says no more, we aren't going to fight.  Does the fighting stop or will the other side keep attacking until they are gone?  If Palestinians lay down their weapons and say no more.  What happens?  Does Israel keep bombing Palestine until they are gone?  

I think the answer to those two scenarios (whatever it may be) plays a large factor into who is primarily to blame for all the death and destruction in the area,  the chaos of the situation, and the probability of it ever ending.  🤷‍♀️

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whyZ
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10/13/2023 1:37pm

My opinion is the conclusion of this 3000-year-old war will only come with a nuclear ending. 
And that doesn't appear to be too far off.       

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ToolMaker
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10/13/2023 1:42pm
prozach wrote:
If one side lays down their guns and accepts defeat what will the end result be? It's a good question to ask.  If Israel says no...

If one side lays down their guns and accepts defeat what will the end result be? It's a good question to ask.  If Israel says no more, we aren't going to fight.  Does the fighting stop or will the other side keep attacking until they are gone?  If Palestinians lay down their weapons and say no more.  What happens?  Does Israel keep bombing Palestine until they are gone?  

I think the answer to those two scenarios (whatever it may be) plays a large factor into who is primarily to blame for all the death and destruction in the area,  the chaos of the situation, and the probability of it ever ending.  🤷‍♀️

Sadly, If Israel lays down it's arms, they get destroyed. If Hamas lays down it's arms, they get destroyed by Hezbollah for laying down the arms and not keeping the fight going. There's definitely not any light at the end of the tunnel yet. You know the friend of my enemy is my enemy.

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