Ethanol and racebikes

Moto East Mag
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Moto East Mag
Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 9:44pm
This is interesting. EPA is considering allowing (not mandating) up to 15% ethanol in pump gas. Does anybody know potential effects on race bike engines?

from Wall Street Journal:
The Outdoor Power Equipment Institute, which represents makers of lawn mowers, chainsaws and other power gear, said it is "deeply concerned," since educating millions of consumers to prevent potentially dangerous misfueling would be "a daunting task." Small-engine makers are particularly concerned about the potential liability associated with accidents or strandings because of engine failures caused by extra ethanol in the fuel mix.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB200014240527487048255045745802913476744…
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CamP
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CamP 12/7/2009 2:28pm
12/7/2009 2:28pm
10% ethanol pump gas ruined the plastic carb on my power washer and I had to replace it. I run 100LL avgas in it now.
Moto East Mag
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Moto East Mag 12/7/2009 2:45pm
12/7/2009 2:45pm
I have no idea the effect of ethanol on a high-performance 450 race engine but maybe some of the engineer-types on here know better. AV gas sounds good!

MAYBE JODY KNOWS!
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 12/7/2009 3:01pm
12/7/2009 3:01pm
Obviously it's a complicated issue - for one thing, the physical properties of ethanol is very dissimilar to gasoline (like density, viscosity, film strength, etc) and race bikes don't have any instruments to detect what the gasoline IS, they just push X volume in Y condition. They have some ability to respond to really bad mixtures that cause detonation and stuff, but by the time that happens, your engine is in the process of blowing up.

I'm actually surprised people can run race bikes on the pump gas available today - if they allow 15% ethanol, you're going to have to run race gas. It's just that simple. Very high compression, high revving four strokes that aren't designed around "flex fuels" aren't going to run worth a crap on gas that's heavily diluted with ethanol.
drmarkr
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drmarkr 12/7/2009 3:02pm
12/7/2009 3:02pm
Welcome to 1973.

This was pretty common back in the day. Big jets and bean oil baby. Ran so cool you could put your hand on the cylinder...

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abn166
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abn166 12/7/2009 3:14pm
12/7/2009 3:14pm
100% ethanol always worked great in my speedway bike!
tuz371
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tuz371 12/7/2009 3:19pm
12/7/2009 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 12/7/2009 3:19pm
I think the Euro's would know a thing or two about getting good power using crappy fuel.
Cygnus
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Cygnus 12/7/2009 3:19pm
12/7/2009 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 12/7/2009 3:20pm
Speedway bikes smell great. What oil did you burn?
CamP
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CamP 12/7/2009 3:43pm
12/7/2009 3:43pm
Guys that run 100% alcohol in their bikes use methanol, not ethanol. I ran it in one of my 250's in the past. Mixed it with Maxima 927 or Klotz. You have to completely purge it out of the bike by filling the carb with gas/oil and running it out. Major pita but it makes for one very fast bike.
MMCDan
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MMCDan 12/7/2009 4:37pm
12/7/2009 4:37pm
Depending on where you buy your pump gas, you've probably run higher than 10% ethanol blend in your car/bike at some point. Smaller refiners/blenders blend on economics and when the wholesale price differential between ethanol and unleaded gets high enough they will splash more ethanol in the mix. Throw on the blenders credit and it's too tempting to pass up. There are plenty of cases where fuel in tanks tested at 15% - 20% ethanol.
Cygnus
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Cygnus 12/7/2009 4:54pm
12/7/2009 4:54pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:20pm
MMCDan wrote:
Depending on where you buy your pump gas, you've probably run higher than 10% ethanol blend in your car/bike at some point. Smaller refiners/blenders blend on...
Depending on where you buy your pump gas, you've probably run higher than 10% ethanol blend in your car/bike at some point. Smaller refiners/blenders blend on economics and when the wholesale price differential between ethanol and unleaded gets high enough they will splash more ethanol in the mix. Throw on the blenders credit and it's too tempting to pass up. There are plenty of cases where fuel in tanks tested at 15% - 20% ethanol.
Yes sir!


I can tell on my Saturn when I buy the shit gas in Denver I go from32- 28 MPG's. Most stations out here that get pure gas and have signs are 10 cents a gallon extra. worth it IMO.
Moto East Mag
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Moto East Mag 12/7/2009 5:47pm
12/7/2009 5:47pm
This must be why my Nissan truck sputters on occasion. I am running race gas next year. Why run crappy gas?
txmxer
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txmxer 12/7/2009 6:36pm
12/7/2009 6:36pm
MMCDan wrote:
Depending on where you buy your pump gas, you've probably run higher than 10% ethanol blend in your car/bike at some point. Smaller refiners/blenders blend on...
Depending on where you buy your pump gas, you've probably run higher than 10% ethanol blend in your car/bike at some point. Smaller refiners/blenders blend on economics and when the wholesale price differential between ethanol and unleaded gets high enough they will splash more ethanol in the mix. Throw on the blenders credit and it's too tempting to pass up. There are plenty of cases where fuel in tanks tested at 15% - 20% ethanol.
and occasionally, higher.

It's supposed to be limited to 10% and they supposedly blend it to about 8.5% to allow for blending error....yeah right.

My truck doesn't change much, but, I would easily pay +.10/gallon to get gasoline instead of gasahol.
motoman0 12/7/2009 7:31pm
12/7/2009 7:31pm
I can say one thing ....we clean twice as many carbs because of the stuff. I may go to race gas for the fist time in my life. Anybody had any experiance with Turboblue. That is all we can get everyday around here.
level
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level 12/7/2009 9:21pm
12/7/2009 9:21pm
Speaking of race gas-what is the best thing I can run for my CRF450-no mods? I have a VP dealer up the street. Is the U4 worth a shit or is there something else I should be running?

I didn't realize pump gas might be hurting the bike. I get that shit all the time with ethanol in it from BP.
CamP
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CamP 12/7/2009 9:26pm
12/7/2009 9:26pm
level wrote:
Speaking of race gas-what is the best thing I can run for my CRF450-no mods? I have a VP dealer up the street. Is the U4...
Speaking of race gas-what is the best thing I can run for my CRF450-no mods? I have a VP dealer up the street. Is the U4 worth a shit or is there something else I should be running?

I didn't realize pump gas might be hurting the bike. I get that shit all the time with ethanol in it from BP.
100LL Avgas works very well in my stock '08 CRF450. Runs $3.50/gal at my local airport.
TerryB
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TerryB 12/7/2009 9:37pm
12/7/2009 9:37pm
Ethyl alcohol absorbs moisture. While you can keep fresh gas in your can, and keep it sealed, you can't control how much moisture it has obsorbed before you pumped it into your can. Maybe not a big problem in Phoenix, but in humid, wet climates, it can be significant enough to run poorly, and in the case of 2-strokes, can cause separation (oil and water don't mix) and seizures.

100LL Avgas is the shit.
MMCDan
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MMCDan 12/7/2009 9:54pm
12/7/2009 9:54pm
level wrote:
Speaking of race gas-what is the best thing I can run for my CRF450-no mods? I have a VP dealer up the street. Is the U4...
Speaking of race gas-what is the best thing I can run for my CRF450-no mods? I have a VP dealer up the street. Is the U4 worth a shit or is there something else I should be running?

I didn't realize pump gas might be hurting the bike. I get that shit all the time with ethanol in it from BP.
I guess it comes down to who you want to believe: the oil companies and food-for-fuel folks that tell you ethanol will grenade your motor or the ethanol and farm lobby that will tell you that it will create a zillion jobs and set us free from our dependence on foreign oil. My guess is that the truth is somewhere in between.

The EPA will most likely approve a mid-level blend (12% - 15%) in the near future so you won't have much of a choice. The reality is that ethanol is a good sustitute for MTBE, is a decent oxygenate and fuel extender but has only 2/3 the energy content of unleaded gas.
PaleBlue
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PaleBlue 12/8/2009 4:34am
12/8/2009 4:34am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:20pm
tuz371 wrote:
I think the Euro's would know a thing or two about getting good power using crappy fuel.


??????????????????


I use Shell V-Power. If its good enough for Formula 1 Ferraris (at approx 15c extra per Litre) it's good enough for my TM's.

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miedosoracing1 12/8/2009 5:01am
12/8/2009 5:01am
Just as an FYI, here goes. Ethanol, while you would use about 20-30% more fuel in your bike, it would give you quite a bit more horsepower. As per say, we are not worried about fuel economy in motocross so much, it is the ticket for cheap power. That being said, the person who said the water in your fuel will be a big issue is right. Even down here, I have been talking about this for years. Having a sputter going up to a jump would be bad :-( Taking the fuel out every ride and putting it in a metal tank that is sealed. That is a huge pain. their are water removal liquids to add if you so desire. Second, you can not switch back and forth, with the old carbed bikes. The jetting from my testing, is a huge huge change. Much much bigger jets, so the fuel amount flowing rises to match the ratio needed. So, I guess you could change back and forth, but keeping the regular fuel jetting and the ethanol jetting seperated so you don't get them confused. I do believe most current dirtbikes are built with the safety of not melting parts, since they know most common people riding dirtbikes will be running the 10-15% ethanol already. Although this part has not been tested yet from what I have seen around. The fuel injected bikes may be the best chance, although not sure they are setup to pump that much more fuel and or adjust to the change. Our current bikes are built to accept the current fuels. Why, because most riders do not race, and are pumping their bikes with pump fuel. Last but not least, although it is iffy using 100% ethanol to gain the power. It does do one other good thing. Ethanol has higher octane than pump gas. I can't remember the number but it was over 100. I have been testing this, because I am a survivalist and worry about the day that fossil fuel gets very hard to find. Thus, I know how to make ethanol out of old fruits, etc. Things like banana peels etc. All that using sun power and other things that won't polute and doesn't use energy to make. So there are good things and bad things.
Cygnus
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Cygnus 12/8/2009 5:31am
12/8/2009 5:31am
I have always been confused about the water thing. Isn't HEET alchohol. It removes water from fuel. Confused in Colorado.
Nutty C
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Nutty C 12/8/2009 9:43am
12/8/2009 9:43am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2009 9:49am
TerryB wrote:
Ethyl alcohol absorbs moisture. While you can keep fresh gas in your can, and keep it sealed, you can't control how much moisture it has obsorbed...
Ethyl alcohol absorbs moisture. While you can keep fresh gas in your can, and keep it sealed, you can't control how much moisture it has obsorbed before you pumped it into your can. Maybe not a big problem in Phoenix, but in humid, wet climates, it can be significant enough to run poorly, and in the case of 2-strokes, can cause separation (oil and water don't mix) and seizures.

100LL Avgas is the shit.
Terry B do you think that guys balls are blue by now. Toofunny. Av gas has a lot of antifreeze additives in it due to the elevation it is intended to run at.
CamP
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CamP 12/8/2009 9:49am
12/8/2009 9:49am
miedosoracing1 wrote:
Just as an FYI, here goes. Ethanol, while you would use about 20-30% more fuel in your bike, it would give you quite a bit more...
Just as an FYI, here goes. Ethanol, while you would use about 20-30% more fuel in your bike, it would give you quite a bit more horsepower. As per say, we are not worried about fuel economy in motocross so much, it is the ticket for cheap power. That being said, the person who said the water in your fuel will be a big issue is right. Even down here, I have been talking about this for years. Having a sputter going up to a jump would be bad :-( Taking the fuel out every ride and putting it in a metal tank that is sealed. That is a huge pain. their are water removal liquids to add if you so desire. Second, you can not switch back and forth, with the old carbed bikes. The jetting from my testing, is a huge huge change. Much much bigger jets, so the fuel amount flowing rises to match the ratio needed. So, I guess you could change back and forth, but keeping the regular fuel jetting and the ethanol jetting seperated so you don't get them confused. I do believe most current dirtbikes are built with the safety of not melting parts, since they know most common people riding dirtbikes will be running the 10-15% ethanol already. Although this part has not been tested yet from what I have seen around. The fuel injected bikes may be the best chance, although not sure they are setup to pump that much more fuel and or adjust to the change. Our current bikes are built to accept the current fuels. Why, because most riders do not race, and are pumping their bikes with pump fuel. Last but not least, although it is iffy using 100% ethanol to gain the power. It does do one other good thing. Ethanol has higher octane than pump gas. I can't remember the number but it was over 100. I have been testing this, because I am a survivalist and worry about the day that fossil fuel gets very hard to find. Thus, I know how to make ethanol out of old fruits, etc. Things like banana peels etc. All that using sun power and other things that won't polute and doesn't use energy to make. So there are good things and bad things.
Ethanol doesn't produce more power than gasoline. You are confusing ethanol with methanol, which produces about 20% more power than gasoline, but requires jetting that's 50%+ richer than gasoline.
miedosoracing1 12/8/2009 11:41am
12/8/2009 11:41am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:21pm
CamP wrote:
Ethanol doesn't produce more power than gasoline. You are confusing ethanol with methanol, which produces about 20% more power than gasoline, but requires jetting that's 50%+...
Ethanol doesn't produce more power than gasoline. You are confusing ethanol with methanol, which produces about 20% more power than gasoline, but requires jetting that's 50%+ richer than gasoline.
No, you are confused. Ethanol actually produces about 10% or more % less power than gasoline. The reason you get more horsepower from it, is because you are using 20-30% more fuel. Thus, increase in hp. But not increase of HP per unit used. It is actually a decrease. Methanol is actually even less BTU than Ethanol. It burns faster than gasoline as well. So here is the breakdown

1 gallon of gasoline = 125,000 Btu
1 gallon of ethanol = 84,400 Btu
1 gallon methanol = 62,800 Btu
ty159
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ty159 12/8/2009 12:04pm
12/8/2009 12:04pm
Ethanol sucks!! The gas station a block from my house advertises NO ETHANOL. I'm only about 3 miles to the coast, and they are targeting boaters! I get all my fuel for my bikes there and mix it 50-50 with 110 VP. They run great!!
miedosoracing1 12/8/2009 12:14pm
12/8/2009 12:14pm Edited Date/Time 12/8/2009 12:15pm
ty159 wrote:
Ethanol sucks!! The gas station a block from my house advertises NO ETHANOL. I'm only about 3 miles to the coast, and they are targeting boaters...
Ethanol sucks!! The gas station a block from my house advertises NO ETHANOL. I'm only about 3 miles to the coast, and they are targeting boaters! I get all my fuel for my bikes there and mix it 50-50 with 110 VP. They run great!!
I'd be interested in who the supplier is then. Unless they are doing something like 50 gallon tanks at a time, most suppliers use 10% or more. It's very rare for one to actually have 0 ethanol from a big named supplier. Ethanol is being used as an octane booster per say. Also, guess if it isn't true, there would have to be someone who actually tested it to prove it. Because although you say it sucks, you would have no idea if it had it or not.
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SteveS 12/8/2009 12:15pm
12/8/2009 12:15pm
Around here, (Lake of the Ozarks, also a big marine area) all the stations are advertising "No ethanol in our premium".
miedosoracing1 12/8/2009 12:25pm
12/8/2009 12:25pm
SteveS wrote:
Around here, (Lake of the Ozarks, also a big marine area) all the stations are advertising "No ethanol in our premium".
Very possible the small engines and problems like the show on MSNBC a while back, made it viable in those marine areas? Don't know. Just very rare around the whole US as a whole.
ty159
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ty159 12/8/2009 12:27pm
12/8/2009 12:27pm
meido, I would know!! I have gotten gas from other stations and the bike not run as crisp. Ethanol is NOT used as an octane booster, it is used as a FILLER. Ethanol causes lower milage and SUCKS!! Believe what you want, but ethanol is not the answer for fuel...
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 12/8/2009 12:34pm
12/8/2009 12:34pm
Just buy VP and forget about it.
brakkeman_ 12/8/2009 12:39pm
12/8/2009 12:39pm
tuz371 wrote:
I think the Euro's would know a thing or two about getting good power using crappy fuel.
Hey sherlock,

we run 98 octane gas at the pump compared to your shitty 87, when using the RON rating.

suck it.

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