AMA's reply to my 2 stroke concern. Sorry DC.

newmann
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Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 11:03pm
Well, the AMA just sidestepped this one and will throw it back to DC. Didn't want to flood your mailbox with crap you don't need. Looks like contacting the AMA is useless. Protecting your rights to ride! Makes me proud to be an AMA Life Member.......Whistling



Dear Joe:

Your email to AMA President Rob Dingman regarding AMA Racing was referred to me, as I am the Director of Racing. AMA Pro Racing was sold in late 2008 to Daytona Motorsports Group, known as DMG. The Motocross racing is being managed by MX Sports.

The AMA no longer runs professional racing. The AMA does, however, sanction AMA amateur racing and recreational events. The AMA is the largest motorsports sanctioning body in the world.

In AMA Amateur Competition we allow 2-stroke and 4-stroke to compete together.

I will forward your email and concerns to AMA Pro Racing MX Sports President Davey Coombs.

Thank you,

Joe Bromley
Director of Racing
American Motorcyclist Association
13515 Yarmouth Dr.
Pickerington, OH 43147
1 (800) AMA-JOIN
1 (614) 856-1900, ext. 1205

jbromley@ama-cycle.org

|
flarider
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10/16/2009 1:56pm
In AMA Amateur Competition we allow 2-stroke and 4-stroke to compete together.


But not equal cc vs cc, right?
2T42
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10/16/2009 2:39pm
So nobody wants to step up and say they are the one who makes the rules? If DC is just the messenger and the AMA does not run the show, then who IS responsible for fixing the mess?

...big 4? Hmmm.
MX7MX
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10/16/2009 2:41pm
flarider wrote:
In AMA Amateur Competition we allow 2-stroke and 4-stroke to compete together.


But not equal cc vs cc, right?
but is it really equal in how they make the power even though they are cc vs cc? Nobody thinks about HOW they make the power, only the CC's!
lumpy790
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10/16/2009 2:45pm
flarider wrote:
In AMA Amateur Competition we allow 2-stroke and 4-stroke to compete together.


But not equal cc vs cc, right?
At Lorettas this year in the 250B class there were 250F's, 250 2 strokes and 125's.......so yes they can compete at the Amateur level cc to cc.

The Shop

kardy
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10/16/2009 2:52pm
newmann wrote:
Well, the AMA just sidestepped this one and will throw it back to DC. Didn't want to flood your mailbox with crap you don't need. Looks...
Well, the AMA just sidestepped this one and will throw it back to DC. Didn't want to flood your mailbox with crap you don't need. Looks like contacting the AMA is useless. Protecting your rights to ride! Makes me proud to be an AMA Life Member.......Whistling



Dear Joe:

Your email to AMA President Rob Dingman regarding AMA Racing was referred to me, as I am the Director of Racing. AMA Pro Racing was sold in late 2008 to Daytona Motorsports Group, known as DMG. The Motocross racing is being managed by MX Sports.

The AMA no longer runs professional racing. The AMA does, however, sanction AMA amateur racing and recreational events. The AMA is the largest motorsports sanctioning body in the world.

In AMA Amateur Competition we allow 2-stroke and 4-stroke to compete together.

I will forward your email and concerns to AMA Pro Racing MX Sports President Davey Coombs.

Thank you,

Joe Bromley
Director of Racing
American Motorcyclist Association
13515 Yarmouth Dr.
Pickerington, OH 43147
1 (800) AMA-JOIN
1 (614) 856-1900, ext. 1205

jbromley@ama-cycle.org

What did you ask them about? 2 strokes in the pro Nationals?
10/16/2009 2:53pm
flarider wrote:
In AMA Amateur Competition we allow 2-stroke and 4-stroke to compete together.


But not equal cc vs cc, right?
lumpy790 wrote:
At Lorettas this year in the 250B class there were 250F's, 250 2 strokes and 125's.......so yes they can compete at the Amateur level cc to...
At Lorettas this year in the 250B class there were 250F's, 250 2 strokes and 125's.......so yes they can compete at the Amateur level cc to cc.
I really find it hard to believe that people don't know this, especially the people (almost 20K posts) that post on this board. It has been this way for 2 years now. WTF?
loftyair
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10/16/2009 2:59pm
There is almost a 'perfect' bike for everyone. Whether it be 2t or 4t, and whatever size. If you think it's 'unfair', then get that 'unfair' bike and see if that helps. It might, but either way, your gonna get beat, by xr600's and 85's, depending on who's riding it. Abolish the cc and stroke rules! I want to see them all racing anyway. What matters most at any track is the skill level of riders/racers on the track at the same time, not which bike they're on.
kwhite199
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10/16/2009 3:02pm
Does anyone know how the AMA arrived at the rule allowing 450 4-strokes to ride against 250 2-strokes? I never have heard anyone say much about that. I'm also curious as to why Yamaha went with a 400 4-stroke originally when they were making their push back into the 4-stroke MX business.
Kinetic1
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10/16/2009 3:10pm
I don't know the answer to the second part of your question but when the original rules regarding four strokes were written they only looked at horsepower and the four strokes were allowed to be much bigger than 450 at that time. (I believe it was 550 but could be mistaken) Once John Dowd and ???? (I can't seem to pull the name out of my memory) were holeshoting EVERY moto they dropped the limit to 450. Based upon power output.
flarider
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10/16/2009 3:12pm
lumpy790 wrote:
At Lorettas this year in the 250B class there were 250F's, 250 2 strokes and 125's.......so yes they can compete at the Amateur level cc to...
At Lorettas this year in the 250B class there were 250F's, 250 2 strokes and 125's.......so yes they can compete at the Amateur level cc to cc.
(I know)




Muezh
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10/16/2009 3:13pm
so DC isn't the savior we all thought he was????
Void Main
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10/16/2009 3:17pm
loftyair wrote:
There is almost a 'perfect' bike for everyone. Whether it be 2t or 4t, and whatever size. If you think it's 'unfair', then get that 'unfair'...
There is almost a 'perfect' bike for everyone. Whether it be 2t or 4t, and whatever size. If you think it's 'unfair', then get that 'unfair' bike and see if that helps. It might, but either way, your gonna get beat, by xr600's and 85's, depending on who's riding it. Abolish the cc and stroke rules! I want to see them all racing anyway. What matters most at any track is the skill level of riders/racers on the track at the same time, not which bike they're on.
You know, the more I hear you bring this up the more I like it. Run what you brung. You can still have 2 classes, a support class that you have to get through before getting to the premier class. You win in the support class you move up (roughly). Keep pushing this one, it makes a lot of sense!
kwhite199
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10/16/2009 3:24pm
Kinetic1 wrote:
I don't know the answer to the second part of your question but when the original rules regarding four strokes were written they only looked at...
I don't know the answer to the second part of your question but when the original rules regarding four strokes were written they only looked at horsepower and the four strokes were allowed to be much bigger than 450 at that time. (I believe it was 550 but could be mistaken) Once John Dowd and ???? (I can't seem to pull the name out of my memory) were holeshoting EVERY moto they dropped the limit to 450. Based upon power output.
Thanks for the answer. I was thinking that at one time they were running 4-strokes of over 500cc.
typ2vw159
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10/16/2009 3:32pm
Put on a paddle tire this shit is going to be deep!
2T42
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10/16/2009 3:35pm
So basically the AMA currently allows it in amateurs and is for equal cc, the fans are for equal cc, the privateers are for equal cc and DC is supposedly for equal cc. Who does that leave?. ...Hmmmm.
ando
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10/16/2009 3:36pm
loftyair wrote:
There is almost a 'perfect' bike for everyone. Whether it be 2t or 4t, and whatever size. If you think it's 'unfair', then get that 'unfair'...
There is almost a 'perfect' bike for everyone. Whether it be 2t or 4t, and whatever size. If you think it's 'unfair', then get that 'unfair' bike and see if that helps. It might, but either way, your gonna get beat, by xr600's and 85's, depending on who's riding it. Abolish the cc and stroke rules! I want to see them all racing anyway. What matters most at any track is the skill level of riders/racers on the track at the same time, not which bike they're on.
Nice theory.

Let's think about the practical side. No OEM is going to build a specific bike for a class that has no displacement rules. So teams/riders pick from what's available. What is available now? 450 4st, 250 2st, 250 4st, 125/144/150 2st.

In the "Open" class what do you think people are going to choose from that lot? I know the answer - it's what they are choosing right now.

So regardless of the way you look at it, at this point in time the best available production motocross bike is a 450cc 4 stroke. And unless something dramatic happens to make the OEM's build something different, it's going to stay that way.

BTW why was 250cc considered the "best" capacity for a 2 stroke for so long? Surely in the 15 years or so between the demise of the 500 2st and the rise of the 400/450 4st engine development and technology could have come up a better capacity? I think the answer is that for ongoing commitment of OEM's and other major supporters there has to be some long term stability in the rules of the class, otherwise it just turns into a circus.
10/16/2009 3:39pm
I thought the "motocross" class last year was a run what you brung? Didn't just have to be just 450cc.

The other guy you're thinking of Kinetic is Guy Cooper
10/16/2009 3:44pm
I was going to stay out of this but, i guess I'll chime in.

Yes the 250 2 stroke is faster and makes more HP. I honestly don't think it would be an advantage on the track though, single lap times yes... but race situation no.

The line choices between a 4strk and 2strk are completely different. If the majority of riders are on a 4 stroke the advantage of the 2 strk is less and less.

What we need is an exhabition race to put this all behind us.

Who won LL's in the A class? was he on a 2 strk or 4? Where did the 2 strk actually finish at LL's?
bogdan912
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10/16/2009 3:50pm
Schmelyun and Howell were the only front runners on 2 bangers at LLs... I think Joey Rossi was also upfront a bit on a 2T. Majority were 4strokes. Titles went to 4 strokes.
txmxer
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10/16/2009 3:54pm
I thought the "motocross" class last year was a run what you brung? Didn't just have to be just 450cc. The other guy you're thinking of...
I thought the "motocross" class last year was a run what you brung? Didn't just have to be just 450cc.

The other guy you're thinking of Kinetic is Guy Cooper
I believe that was a 540cc Husaberg...a BEAST. I saw him try to qualify for Dallas SX in the mud. It was a blast to watch him huck that thing.

nmanley
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10/16/2009 4:04pm
flarider wrote:
In AMA Amateur Competition we allow 2-stroke and 4-stroke to compete together.


But not equal cc vs cc, right?
lumpy790 wrote:
At Lorettas this year in the 250B class there were 250F's, 250 2 strokes and 125's.......so yes they can compete at the Amateur level cc to...
At Lorettas this year in the 250B class there were 250F's, 250 2 strokes and 125's.......so yes they can compete at the Amateur level cc to cc.
Your all so damn brainwashed you can't even do SIMPLE MATH!!! Since when is 250cc the SAME as 125c??. It not and NEVER will be even counting the STROKES.
A 185-200cc 2-smoker might have competed with a 250 4-banger in the early years but not anymore. Evil
motogrady
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10/16/2009 4:06pm
loftyair wrote:
There is almost a 'perfect' bike for everyone. Whether it be 2t or 4t, and whatever size. If you think it's 'unfair', then get that 'unfair'...
There is almost a 'perfect' bike for everyone. Whether it be 2t or 4t, and whatever size. If you think it's 'unfair', then get that 'unfair' bike and see if that helps. It might, but either way, your gonna get beat, by xr600's and 85's, depending on who's riding it. Abolish the cc and stroke rules! I want to see them all racing anyway. What matters most at any track is the skill level of riders/racers on the track at the same time, not which bike they're on.
ando wrote:
Nice theory. Let's think about the practical side. No OEM is going to build a specific bike for a class that has no displacement rules. So...
Nice theory.

Let's think about the practical side. No OEM is going to build a specific bike for a class that has no displacement rules. So teams/riders pick from what's available. What is available now? 450 4st, 250 2st, 250 4st, 125/144/150 2st.

In the "Open" class what do you think people are going to choose from that lot? I know the answer - it's what they are choosing right now.

So regardless of the way you look at it, at this point in time the best available production motocross bike is a 450cc 4 stroke. And unless something dramatic happens to make the OEM's build something different, it's going to stay that way.

BTW why was 250cc considered the "best" capacity for a 2 stroke for so long? Surely in the 15 years or so between the demise of the 500 2st and the rise of the 400/450 4st engine development and technology could have come up a better capacity? I think the answer is that for ongoing commitment of OEM's and other major supporters there has to be some long term stability in the rules of the class, otherwise it just turns into a circus.

When it was all out, no rules, the skies the limit, make the very best tool for the job,
Suzuki ran a 370 2 stroke.
flarider
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10/16/2009 4:13pm
I was going to stay out of this but, i guess I'll chime in. Yes the 250 2 stroke is faster and makes more HP. I...
I was going to stay out of this but, i guess I'll chime in.

Yes the 250 2 stroke is faster and makes more HP. I honestly don't think it would be an advantage on the track though, single lap times yes... but race situation no.

The line choices between a 4strk and 2strk are completely different. If the majority of riders are on a 4 stroke the advantage of the 2 strk is less and less.

What we need is an exhabition race to put this all behind us.

Who won LL's in the A class? was he on a 2 strk or 4? Where did the 2 strk actually finish at LL's?
Justin Starling won 450A on a 450
wardy
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10/16/2009 4:13pm
NOt sure Joe likes a private e mail posted on a post board. but in amatuer it's 122-Open for the "450" class. 122cc-250cc for the 250 class and 122-125cc for the 125cc class.

this was one of the last things that R holiday did before he went to Kaw, in fact it took what 5-7 years of pushing to get this type of class structure passed. We fought for it for a long time mainly because of cost, sound, wieght, and preference.

Today it works fine in the amatuer setting. More and more "local fast guys" like running the smokers as they find them easier to maintain and cheaper.

In the pro's i can see the issues are huge. Mainly marketing. OEM's pushed this thumper issue long ago, they have an agenda, and it won't be changed anytime soon.

So looks like a kick asss pro am race series with big purses would be interestingto see what those guys will ride.

Lightning78
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10/16/2009 4:19pm
I was going to stay out of this but, i guess I'll chime in. Yes the 250 2 stroke is faster and makes more HP. I...
I was going to stay out of this but, i guess I'll chime in.

Yes the 250 2 stroke is faster and makes more HP. I honestly don't think it would be an advantage on the track though, single lap times yes... but race situation no.

The line choices between a 4strk and 2strk are completely different. If the majority of riders are on a 4 stroke the advantage of the 2 strk is less and less.

What we need is an exhabition race to put this all behind us.

Who won LL's in the A class? was he on a 2 strk or 4? Where did the 2 strk actually finish at LL's?
The reason the winners of the LL classes were 99% 4 strokes is because the kids riding them were already contracted team green riders or team ???? Honda riders, they cannot race 2 strokes only the kids with minimal support i.e. non factory supported teams would have the opportunity to run a smoker
10/16/2009 4:27pm
I was going to stay out of this but, i guess I'll chime in. Yes the 250 2 stroke is faster and makes more HP. I...
I was going to stay out of this but, i guess I'll chime in.

Yes the 250 2 stroke is faster and makes more HP. I honestly don't think it would be an advantage on the track though, single lap times yes... but race situation no.

The line choices between a 4strk and 2strk are completely different. If the majority of riders are on a 4 stroke the advantage of the 2 strk is less and less.

What we need is an exhabition race to put this all behind us.

Who won LL's in the A class? was he on a 2 strk or 4? Where did the 2 strk actually finish at LL's?
The reason the winners of the LL classes were 99% 4 strokes is because the kids riding them were already contracted team green riders or team...
The reason the winners of the LL classes were 99% 4 strokes is because the kids riding them were already contracted team green riders or team ???? Honda riders, they cannot race 2 strokes only the kids with minimal support i.e. non factory supported teams would have the opportunity to run a smoker
and when those kids do well on a 2 smoke they get put on a Team that MAKES them ride the 4 strokes!! bad deal for the 2 smokes anyway you look at it... come on davey, cc to cc the way it should be ... fast riders will go fast on whatever they ride....
2T42
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10/16/2009 4:31pm
wardy wrote:
NOt sure Joe likes a private e mail posted on a post board. but in amatuer it's 122-Open for the "450" class. 122cc-250cc for the 250...
NOt sure Joe likes a private e mail posted on a post board. but in amatuer it's 122-Open for the "450" class. 122cc-250cc for the 250 class and 122-125cc for the 125cc class.

this was one of the last things that R holiday did before he went to Kaw, in fact it took what 5-7 years of pushing to get this type of class structure passed. We fought for it for a long time mainly because of cost, sound, wieght, and preference.

Today it works fine in the amatuer setting. More and more "local fast guys" like running the smokers as they find them easier to maintain and cheaper.

In the pro's i can see the issues are huge. Mainly marketing. OEM's pushed this thumper issue long ago, they have an agenda, and it won't be changed anytime soon.

So looks like a kick asss pro am race series with big purses would be interestingto see what those guys will ride.

If the factories and limitless budgets were not involved, it would be easy to guess what pro am racers would pull up to the line on. To win money and not have to spend it all on the bike would be refreshing. It would be a more even split in 450 and heavy on 2 strokes in the 250 class.
JB 19
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Marion, OH, USA
10/16/2009 4:37pm
Amazing how many of the 2 stroke whiners don't even know the rules that apply to 99% of the people racing motocross. It has been 250cc two stroke or 4 stroke in the B class for 2.5 years.
AJ
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10/16/2009 4:46pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:47am
JB 19 wrote:
Amazing how many of the 2 stroke whiners don't even know the rules that apply to 99% of the people racing motocross. It has been 250cc...
Amazing how many of the 2 stroke whiners don't even know the rules that apply to 99% of the people racing motocross. It has been 250cc two stroke or 4 stroke in the B class for 2.5 years.
and it hasnt hurt anything..
or been a big deal to most..

isnt that the point?

it would be the same in pro.
not that big of deal, ,just an interesting side bar..

(as the OEM factory or factory support teams would indeed run the 4 strokes)

the only negative is the few holeshots pulled off by a random privateer,
(or jlaw)
that took the *big teams* 20 seconds of TV time away..

i feel like paul harvey, now you know the rest of the story..

Smile

twizzler
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10/16/2009 5:03pm
I bet a 2 stroke race for regional pro's or privateer/semi pro's that was held as a points paying series alongside the national mx series motos would be a hit! But then that would surely piss of someone! So doubt that ever happens. Wishful thinking.



Post a reply to: AMA's reply to my 2 stroke concern. Sorry DC.

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